GwR HSTs to be stood down

[Wyrleybart]

The GTi sets had nothing to do with the franchise bidding process.

They were suggested by the GWR senior management team to the DfT as a way of getting out of the mess that the delays in electrification had caused to the “as bid” DMU cascade. That also involved the then looming Pacer replacement issue.

It is worth considering though that while Northern and TPE and perhaps GA and TfW have all battled with huge backlogs of traction training because of introduction of new trains, GWR simply had the doors modified and many of the crews already signed HSTs anyway.

Worth noting that Avanti are going to feel the pain after the 805s and 807s are signed off and ready for crew training. AWC haven't had a new train to become competent on since the Pendolinos nearly 20 years ago.

 

[father_jack]

The GTi sets had nothing to do with the franchise bidding process.

They were suggested by the GWR senior management team to the DfT as a way of getting out of the mess that the delays in electrification had caused to the “as bid” DMU cascade. That also involved the then looming Pacer replacement issue.

Doesn't it reflect badly on that management as being conveniently "enthusiast" rather than business and that there should have been firm representations for proper future stock ?

 

[Clarence Yard]

There weren’t any other options to get the DfT out of the hole. They had run out of time.

 

[Snow1964]

Reports are circulating amongst Exeter based GWR staff that 4 sets are being retained until may next year. Nothing confirmed as far as I know.

Whilst I would like to see them stay, I am trying to get my head around how keeping 4 units extra 6 months helps, rather than just defers the stock shortfall. As Devon and Cornwall are always busier in summer (actually from about late March onwards) if can't get through the quieter winter months without them, what happens in busy months.

If they are needed until May 2024, where do 4 replacements come from, or is it 4 other diagrams cut elsewhere to release 4 trains. Maybe May 2024 is simply when some stock will have been displaced by 805, 807, 810 etc and DfT has a plan.....

 

[CDM]

The GTi sets had nothing to do with the franchise bidding process.

They were suggested by the GWR senior management team to the DfT as a way of getting out of the mess that the delays in electrification had caused to the “as bid” DMU cascade. That also involved the then looming Pacer replacement issue.

Exactly the same situation though - simply a case of what rolling stock was available at the time and what stacked up financially. Nothing more to it than that. And it was not an industry senior leadership team matter - it was simply good decision making by the local operator management team (digging themselves out of a whole they'd been put in - which in itself, just reinforces my point!).

There weren’t any other options to get the DfT out of the hole. They had run out of time.

Yep - exactly that.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

To my mind the purported retention of Castle sets (presumably four sets to work the same two diagrams that are currently booked from Sept-Dec) is simply about buying more time to solve the ongoing IET availability and reliability issues, nothing more. Unless there is a potential influx of stock from elsewhere around Easter 2024 that we have not yet heard about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To my mind the purported retention of Castle sets (presumably four sets to work the same two diagrams that are currently booked from Sept-Dec) is simply about buying more time to solve the ongoing IET availability and reliability issues, nothing more. Unless there is a potential influx of stock from elsewhere around Easter 2024 that we have not yet heard about.

TfW 158s will be available at some point (not saying they are going to GWR, nobody knows yet).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

TfW 158s will be available at some point (not saying they are going to GWR, nobody knows yet).

And contrary to what people assume, that isn’t a straightforward fleet to absorb!

 

[43096]

And contrary to what people assume, that isn’t a straightforward fleet to absorb!

More simply the TfW 150s will also become available and they are much easier to integrate.

 

[Richard Scott]

And contrary to what people assume, that isn’t a straightforward fleet to absorb!

I assume by this you mean because they have Perkins engines and are non-standard as far as 158s go?

 

[158747]

I assume by this you mean because they have Perkins engines and are non-standard as far as 158s go?

Although non standard as far as the 158 fleet is concerned, the Perkins engines fitted to the TFW 158s are the same engines that are fitted to the Turbos. Incidentally FGW, as it was back in the day did have some Perkins engined 158s in the fleet until December 2007, when most of the former Wessex Trains 158s were transferred to other operators, some of these 158s were fitted with Perkins engines.

 

[JonathanH]

Incidentally FGW, as it was back in the day did have some Perkins engined 158s in the fleet until December 2007, when most of the former Wessex Trains 158s were transferred to other operators, some of these 158s were fitted with Perkins engines.

The fact they went away might give a clue as to whether they want a different set of Perkins-engined units back.

 

[Trainbike46]

The fact they went away might give a clue as to whether they want a different set of Perkins-engined units back.

on the other hand, the fact that there was no need for them back in 2007 when they left, doesn't mean they aren't the best/cheapest/most suitable option now, or when they get released by TfW

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I assume by this you mean because they have Perkins engines and are non-standard as far as 158s go?

Perkins engines yes, but also a totally non-standard DMI in the cab due to the Cambrian ETCS fitment. I don't know, but will speculate that a conversion course would be required as a minimum for driving them by GWR crews.

 

[Bikeman78]

The GTi sets had nothing to do with the franchise bidding process.

They were suggested by the GWR senior management team to the DfT as a way of getting out of the mess that the delays in electrification had caused to the “as bid” DMU cascade. That also involved the then looming Pacer replacement issue.

Well at least GWR was lucky enough to get a Pacer replacement that worked, unlike some other TOCs.

Perkins engines yes, but also a totally non-standard DMI in the cab due to the Cambrian ETCS fitment. I don't know, but will speculate that a conversion course would be required as a minimum for driving them by GWR crews.

Can't they just switch it off? The units still have the old speedometers.

 

[Anonymous10]

Well at least GWR was lucky enough to get a Pacer replacement that worked, unlike some other TOCs.


Can't they just switch it off? The units still have the old speedometers.

You'd think it can be relatively easily unbolted if the conversion for a 197 is a day. Then permanent removal must be an option on a 158

 

[43096]

You'd think it can be relatively easily unbolted if the conversion for a 197 is a day. Then permanent removal must be an option on a 158

That’s because the 197 is built new “ETCS ready”. That’s rather different from removing something from a train that has had it added on.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Perkins engines yes, but also a totally non-standard DMI in the cab due to the Cambrian ETCS fitment. I don't know, but will speculate that a conversion course would be required as a minimum for driving them by GWR crews.

And I wonder how easy it would be to unpick the ERTMS cabling and DMI from the cabs, or whether it can just be isolated and ignored. Weren't there supposed to be issues with non trained drivers driving the ATP fitted power cars, that is until they went to Scotrail.

I imagine getting those two seats back which have been hitherto occupied by the "suitcase" full of ERTMS kit in the saloons of the TfW examples.

 

[irish_rail]

This week there have been substitutions by both Castles and 150s for 800s on the Pz to Cardiff stuff. I really think we are in a lot of trouble next May unless some money is found from somewhere to either retain the castles longer or get new stock in....

 

[Anonymous10]

This week there have been substitutions by both Castles and 150s for 800s on the Pz to Cardiff stuff. I really think we are in a lot of trouble next May unless some money is found from somewhere to either retain the castles longer or get new stock in....

What workings were changed for 150s pls?

 

[fgwrich]

And I wonder how easy it would be to unpick the ERTMS cabling and DMI from the cabs, or whether it can just be isolated and ignored. Weren't there supposed to be issues with non trained drivers driving the ATP fitted power cars, that is until they went to Scotrail.

I imagine getting those two seats back which have been hitherto occupied by the "suitcase" full of ERTMS kit in the saloons of the TfW examples.

Surely it’s not impossible to replace the cab desks with a more standard 158 version. SWR had commissioned DB to redesign and replace the cab desks in the 442 for example (and looked where that went for another waste of money).

 

[irish_rail]

What workings were changed for 150s pls?

I don't know but I know I saw a 150 in Cornwall last week during the day on the mainline in service, so I can't think what else it could be.

I don't know but I know I saw a 150 in Cornwall last week during the day on the mainline in service, so I can't think what else it could be.

One of the blue sets if that helps.

 

[Benjwri]

I don't know but I know I saw a 150 in Cornwall last week during the day on the mainline in service, so I can't think what else it could be.


One of the blue sets if that helps.

Perhaps some kind of set swap between Laira and Long Rock to get an IET and 150 in the correct position? Or possibly as replacement for a failed IET at Long Rock. There certainly wasn’t an entire diagram replaced by a 150 last week.

 

[Ashley Hill]

0727 EXD-PLY 150 vice IET yesterday.

 

[irish_rail]

0727 EXD-PLY 150 vice IET yesterday.

Thank you.

Perhaps some kind of set swap between Laira and Long Rock to get an IET and 150 in the correct position? Or possibly as replacement for a failed IET at Long Rock. There certainly wasn’t an entire diagram replaced by a 150 last week.

Either way Castles are regularly replacing 800s and that soon isn't going to be an option. At which point a cancellation (or more likely a short formed London instead).

Thank you.


Either way Castles are regularly replacing 800s and that soon isn't going to be an option. At which point a cancellation (or more likely a short formed London instead).

0727 EXD-PLY 150 vice IET yesterday.

Thinking about it it can't have been that as I saw it mid afternoon, also it wasn't yesterday! So maybe another IET replacement. Definitely not ECS either as was stopped at a station picking up passengers.

 

[Bikeman78]

Either way Castles are regularly replacing 800s and that soon isn't going to be an option. At which point a cancellation (or more likely a short formed London instead).

This 100%. Unlike the Scottish operation, the GWR fleet usually covers all its own work and often a bit more on top. I just did a long weekend in Cornwall and the whole operation ran like clockwork.

 

[Parallel]

Either way Castles are regularly replacing 800s and that soon isn't going to be an option. At which point a cancellation (or more likely a short formed London instead).

The scary thing is that’s happening now. I’ve made a return trip to London today and had to stand from Bath to London due to the train being 5 vice 9 and was severely overcrowded. On a London to Swansea train now which is 5 vice 10 and having to stand again. I did see that a Cardiff - Taunton circuit is formed of a HST vice IET today too. I have genuine concerns for the GWR network once the HST fleet is no longer available.

 

[43096]

The scary thing is that’s happening now. I’ve made a return trip to London today and had to stand from Bath to London due to the train being 5 vice 9 and was severely overcrowded. On a London to Swansea train now which is 5 vice 10 and having to stand again. I did see that a Cardiff - Taunton circuit is formed of a HST vice IET today too. I have genuine concerns for the GWR network once the HST fleet is no longer available.

It's been obvious since this plan was formulated that it was unachievable in reality. The IETs have never met their availability targets with any regularity since they were built and it's hard to see why that would change now, short of Hitachi having the proverbial "blinding light on the road to Damascus" moment. Add in the 802 fleet having more maintenance undertaken at Laira, which will no doubt precipitate the inevitable reliability dip while they get used to them and the whole thing has fiasco written all over it.

 

[Benjwri]

The scary thing is that’s happening now. I’ve made a return trip to London today and had to stand from Bath to London due to the train being 5 vice 9 and was severely overcrowded. On a London to Swansea train now which is 5 vice 10 and having to stand again. I did see that a Cardiff - Taunton circuit is formed of a HST vice IET today too. I have genuine concerns for the GWR network once the HST fleet is no longer available.

Definitely agree a lot of stuff is in a state as it is now, but today has been a special case.

There was a track circuit failure West of Plymouth, which meant a lot of cancellations, and more importantly a lot of trains trapped at Laira and Long Rock. A lot of them weren’t able to run properly towards London, but the return workings did run, so trains had to be cut down so these could run.

As is often the case, and has been explained before, there is definitely an issue with fleet availability on the 800s, but a lot of the problems at the moment are with units being available but in the wrong place.

 

[Desirolly]

The scary thing is that’s happening now. I’ve made a return trip to London today and had to stand from Bath to London due to the train being 5 vice 9 and was severely overcrowded. On a London to Swansea train now which is 5 vice 10 and having to stand again. I did see that a Cardiff - Taunton circuit is formed of a HST vice IET today too. I have genuine concerns for the GWR network once the HST fleet is no longer available.

Issues caused all morning by an issue at Plymouth I think. I was stuck at Taunton and got on the delayed 0853 XC service which arrived at Bristol around 105 mins late.. but it gave me the opportunity to see a castle set speed through Taunton non stop as it was fast from Exeter to Cardiff I believe. But as you say there will be serious capacity issues once they go. Aside from the nostalgia, getting rid of the castle sets will genuinely destroy the service, especially with leisure travel reaching new peaks and Cornwall/ the general GWR network is a hotbed for that.