GWR IET’s Lots of 5 Car Sets PAD > South Wales

[JonathanH]

Of which how many have returned?

None. The concept has been abandoned, and the paths used to allow the Paddington to Didcot services to run on the main line to Slough.

They aren't in the normal timetable as it is effectively recast without them.

 

[Snow1964]

It made todays Parliamentry Transport Questions
Extract from Hansard, of question & answer

Stephen Crabb
(Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
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So many families in Pembrokeshire have sons and daughters working away or studying all over the country who will want to get home this Christmas. With such poor rail services into Wales, what assurances has the Minister had from companies such as Great Western Railway that they will stop putting on five-carriage trains when they should be running 10 carriages; that they will have a full roster of drivers available in the days ahead, so that we can have a full complement of services running; and that services will not be cut short in places such as Swansea and Carmarthen, leaving my constituents stranded late at night?
Huw Merriman
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My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. With Christmas eve and new year’s eve falling on Sundays this year, the team at GWR had to approach the Department because drivers were requesting additional payments for driving trains on those Sundays, as Sunday is still not part of a working seven-day week on the railway. We have delivered on that commitment, but the fundamental reform point remains: we need ASLEF and other trade unions to ensure that we have a modern railway that works seven days a week. I can give him an assurance that everything is being done, but a lot more could be done if we could reform with the unions’ co-operation.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-12-14/debates/DB6179AC-E58B-4C13-882B-2280AD32A5E5/OralAnswersToQuestions

 

[ValleyLines142]

Also not helped at the fact that two of the Bristol to Worcester diagrams are now booked for a 5 car.

0648 Cheltenham to Paddington was short formed yet again this morning, apparently full and standing and some left behind at Kemble....

All very well having half hourly services between Gloucester and Bristol, but I also believe we could do with just a 2 car 165 shuttling between Gloucester and Swindon in between the hourly Paddingtons.

 

[PG]

It made todays Parliamentry Transport Questions
Extract from Hansard, of question & answer

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-12-14/debates/DB6179AC-E58B-4C13-882B-2280AD32A5E5/OralAnswersToQuestions

Which seems framed to facilitate the minister indulging in some union bashing

 

[southern442]

Is there any scope for any 387s to help with this?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not with the current availability target the GWR 387 fleet has to meet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Of which how many have returned?

None. It's absolutely nothing on the 2019 change with "super fasts," but that would have led to huge amounts of booked 5 car working and wouldn't have allowed for us to see of the knackered, cramped HSTs on Cardiff - Taunton and the West services, so I see this in some ways as a positive.

Which seems framed to facilitate the minister indulging in some union bashing

Simply mentioning them is not bashing them. No need to bring the unions into yet another discussion where they're not required.

Is there any scope for any 387s to help with this?

Not with the current availability target the GWR 387 fleet has to meet.

The irony, when they've just off-loaded three.
Set swaps on diagrams would of course be required throughout the day between 387s and IETs anyway, as most PAD-CDF standalone services interwork with unnelectrified routes such as Bristol, South West, and Cotswolds.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It made todays Parliamentry Transport Questions
Extract from Hansard, of question & answer

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-12-14/debates/DB6179AC-E58B-4C13-882B-2280AD32A5E5/OralAnswersToQuestions

It’s funny that Mr Merriman mentions that Sunday for drivers is ‘still not part of the railway working week’ but fails to mention that his department’s proposals would not alter that fact either.

 

[Snow1964]

It’s funny that Mr Merriman mentions that Sunday for drivers is ‘still not part of the railway working week’ but fails to mention that his department’s proposals would not alter that fact either.

Not sure it is funny, more worrying that if ministers are briefed that way, they will presume it to be the current state and best solution

 

[Adsy125]

I'd say if you HAD to pick you'd short-form in this general order

1. S. Cotswold trains to Cheltenham
2. N. Cots trains to Oxford/Worcester
3. Bristol
4. S. Wales
5. W. Country

The West Country ones get very political and also with the long running times, the opportunities to swap them out are difficult. Obviously diagrams don't always allow for strenghtening/swapping at Paddington but it does regularly occur.

This post raises an interesting point I think, does GWR have a short form priority policy at all?

Personally, as someone with only major experiences with the Oxford/Cotswold trains, and the West Country services, the Oxfords seems consistently much busier with services completely inappropriately booked for 5 coaches in the off peak service and running full and standing, whereas 9 coach trains run to the West Country (Exeter stoppers specifically) with very few people onboard. Clearly this is only my personal experience, and GWR will have the actual data.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This post raises an interesting point I think, does GWR have a short form priority policy at all?

Personally, as someone with only major experiences with the Oxford/Cotswold trains, and the West Country services, the Oxfords seems consistently much busier with services completely inappropriately booked for 5 coaches in the off peak service and running full and standing, whereas 9 coach trains run to the West Country (Exeter stoppers specifically) with very few people onboard. Clearly this is only my personal experience, and GWR will have the actual data.

It’s been explained many times on this forum that the IET fleet (which is basically 4 different fleets that appear to be one) has so many constraints upon it in terms of depots, hours and (non)compatibility with each other that very often the short-forming decisions effectively make themselves, if the following days service is to be commenced in any sense of order. Make too many ‘good’ choices on Day 1 and the end-position will result in Day 2 being a lot worse, and it goes on…

 

[2T57]

Also not helped at the fact that two of the Bristol to Worcester diagrams are now booked for a 5 car.

Indeed, operating as nothing much more than a regional stopper, making 9 station calls and taking around 100 minutes to cover just 68 miles between Temple Meads and Foregate Street.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Indeed, operating as nothing much more than a regional stopper, making 9 station calls and taking around 100 minutes to cover just 68 miles between Temple Meads and Foregate Street.

And of course anyone travelling end to end will be directed by journey planners to change onto XC at Cheltenham for the run to/from Bristol so in reality it’s a Bristol-Gloucester and Gloucester-Worcester local services joined together, with some intermediate journey opportunities such as Yate to Ashchurch.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not with the current availability target the GWR 387 fleet has to meet.

How many units and diagrams are there now?

 

[JonathanH]

How many units and diagrams are there now?

If the question is about 387s, 30 387s for 27 diagrams - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387-futures-speculation.254662/#post-6538243

Something like 79 or 80 diagrams for 93 80x units - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-short-train-lengths.244744/page-10#post-6315280 and https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-dec-19-timetable.180888/page-30#post-4328493

 

[800301]

Not with the current availability target the GWR 387 fleet has to meet.

and limited number of depots that sign 387's

 

[JonathanH]

and limited number of depots that sign 387's

and limited number of destinations they can reach.

 

[Bikeman78]

If the question is about 387s, 30 387s for 27 diagrams - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387-futures-speculation.254662/#post-6538243

It was. Thanks.

 

[evergreenadam]

Indeed, operating as nothing much more than a regional stopper, making 9 station calls and taking around 100 minutes to cover just 68 miles between Temple Meads and Foregate Street.

So these could be operated by DMUs, if they were available. How many 5 car IETs would that release?

Does the lack of electrification between Didcot and Oxford contribute to the crowding on the Oxford line? If the Didcot to Paddington semi-fasts could be extended to start from Oxford surely that would help to spread out demand across more services, with direct trains from Oxford to more stations in the Thames Valley. It would require more 387s, but would release some DMUs to elsewhere on GWR.

 

[JonathanH]

Does the lack of electrification between Didcot and Oxford contribute to the crowding on the Oxford line?

No. All that would happen is that the IETs would run on electric all the way to Oxford.

If the Didcot to Paddington semi-fasts could be extended to start from Oxford surely that would help to spread out demand across more services, with direct trains from Oxford to more stations in the Thames Valley.

Passengers would still primarily travel on the faster trains to Oxford. The journey improvements would be for the stations between Reading and Didcot who wouldn't have to change at Didcot.

It would require more 387s, but would release some DMUs to elsewhere on GWR.

Two 2-car turbos at best. Running the Oxford 'fast' via Didcot has already saved one DMU.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The key to getting more IET units back on mainline work is getting them off the services that were worked by the GTi HST sets. You are only going to get 80 IET units out of the 93 (and it is debatable that is too much, given the issues with them) so you really want those 5 cars back in 10 car formation on the main line rather than punters suffering the mix of 5 & 10 formations, as at present.

That means, in the short term, getting hold of more 150 or 158 units to boost the local fleet to enable the 80x units to be released off those Cardiff-Penzance corridor services.

 

[43096]

The key to getting more IET units back on mainline work is getting them off the services that were worked by the GTi HST sets. You are only going to get 80 IET units out of the 93 (and it is debatable that is too much, given the issues with them) so you really want those 5 cars back in 10 car formation on the main line rather than punters suffering the mix of 5 & 10 formations, as at present.

Their availability really is chronically bad - and it's the same with GWR, LNER and TPE so not just one depot - always has been and shows no sign of getting any better. Just a dud design - so much for "Japanese reliability".

 

[Snow1964]

The more general thread on GWR short forms has been locked

Seems the IETs being shortened to 5cars on Gloucestershire services is now in the news.

The official replies by GWR Press team seem rather wishy washy without showing much care for customers. Sort of says it's better to have 20 people crammed into bike space than cancel train. Also sort of says GWR know they are short of stock, but not doing anything to rectify situation

A COMMUTER has expressed her frustration over trains between London and Kemble which have become increasingly overcrowded.

Rebecca Neal, who regularly travels by rail from Kemble to London Paddington, says Great Western Railway is providing a substandard week service week on week.

She says the peak time morning train on January 15 from Cheltenham arrived with only five coaches and not the ten required.

It meant she spent the whole one hour and 30 minute delayed journey standing in the bicycle rack squeezed in with dozens of passengers.

“I conservatively guess around twenty passengers were squeezed into this space, which I’m sure can’t be safe,” she said in an email to GWR.

“These awful travelling conditions led me to feeling faint and nauseous and at several points, on the filthy floor trying not to pass out.

“I’m a perfectly healthy adult but these travelling conditions are primitive and completely unacceptable. For the privilege of your service I paid £87.50.

“As an aside, first class passengers had to contend with no tea or coffee as the boiler had broken.

“Obviously the majority of passengers like myself in standard class weren’t going to get a trolley service, let alone a seat, due to the overcrowding.

“This isn’t about the money. But week upon week of sub-standard service. Almost every journey into London is delayed or/and is missing half the coaches.

“This has consistently been the case since I started working in London in early 2022 and I am travelling weekly. It is getting worse.

“To be honest I dread these journeys now. GWR keep taking my and other passengers money – but for what service?”

Her concerns are echoed by County Councillor Paul Hodgkinson (LD, Bourton-on-the-Water and Northleach) who also witnessed a lot of overcrowding on trains to and from the capital.

“I travel on the trains regularly in Gloucestershire and have lost witnessed a lot of overcrowding,” he said.

“Whilst the introduction of faster trains to and from London a few years ago is welcome, there’s no point having them if they are too small for the number of passengers.

“The very least GWR should be doing is making sure enough carriages are laid on so that everyone feels safe and gets value for money.”

GWR have acknowledge their performance has not been good enough of late. They said in a response to Ms Neal that last year and the beginning of this year have been particularly difficult, with the ongoing industrial action and an increasing number of weather-related disruptions.

On November 29 November the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) launched an investigation into poor train punctuality and reliability in the Network Rail Wales & Western region, and Network Rail have committed to work with the ORR to identify causes and take steps to address, GWR says.

“We have also launched a project which seeks to stable the current situation with the infrastructure, and our senior management team meet with Network Rail each week to review their progress on this.

“We’ve also continued to have too many services formed with less carriages than planned, which also impacted your journeys when we were unable to offer pre-booked seat reservations and meant the trains were very, very busy.”

They also said their rolling stock remains extremely tight which has also led to cancellations.

And the phasing out of their Castle Class HST trains and the reduction in units also means that they have fewer spare vehicles when there are problems.

“For example [Ms Neal’s] service on Monday was formed of five instead of ten carriages – we would of course rather run the service in its planned formation but the action we took on Monday was preferable to cancelling the service altogether.”

Frustration builds over overcrowded Cotswold trains

A COMMUTER has expressed her frustration over trains between London and Kemble which have become increasingly overcrowded.

www.wiltsglosstandard.co.uk

 

[Benjwri]

The more general thread on GWR short forms has been locked

Seems the IETs being shortened to 5cars on Gloucestershire services is now in the news.

The official replies by GWR Press team seem rather wishy washy without showing much care for customers. Sort of says it's better to have 20 people crammed into bike space than cancel train. Also sort of says GWR know they are short of stock, but not doing anything to rectify situation

Frustration builds over overcrowded Cotswold trains

A COMMUTER has expressed her frustration over trains between London and Kemble which have become increasingly overcrowded.

www.wiltsglosstandard.co.uk

They got a 2 car turbo to Worcester and back today!!

 

[Clarence Yard]

It is always better to run short than not run at all.

It doesn’t say that GWR are doing nothing about it. The statement is agnostic on that subject although it does mention a reduction in units. Actually, GWR is currently in dialogue with the DfT about getting more stock but the additional cost is an issue.

The current situation with IET unit availability isn’t great.

 

[Parallel]

There seemed to be about 4 trains in a row formed of 5 coaches vice 9 or 10 at Swindon this morning over multiple routes, with those at Reading literally trying to shove each other onto the train to get on. It was a really poor passenger experience. I was surprised at the volume of short forms in the morning peak to London there were!

 

[Jim]

There seemed to be about 4 trains in a row formed of 5 coaches vice 9 or 10 at Swindon this morning over multiple routes, with those at Reading literally trying to shove each other onto the train to get on. It was a really poor passenger experience. I was surprised at the volume of short forms in the morning peak to London there were!

There was 2 Turbos covering IET diagrams in the Bristol area too as well!

 

[387131]

There was 2 Turbos covering IET diagrams in the Bristol area too as well!

2x Turbos in the Oxford / Worcester area and a pair of 387s on the Cardiff's too!

 

[Snow1964]

There was 2 Turbos covering IET diagrams in the Bristol area too as well!

And of course short forms of DMU diagrams as consequence.

As an outsider it feels like Hitachi can regularly choose to provide less serviceable IET sets than diagrammed, and if they don't, the penalties are so low, GWR have no clout if they are short of IETs. If that is the case then there is something seriously wrong with the IET maintenance contracts, the alternative is GWRs legal team is just gutless at enforcing the contract to get number available to meet the diagrams.

 

[Taunton]

As an outsider it feels like Hitachi can regularly choose to provide less serviceable IET sets than diagrammed, and if they don't, the penalties are so low, GWR have no clout if they are short of IETs. If that is the case then there is something seriously wrong with the IET maintenance contracts, the alternative is GWRs legal team is just gutless at enforcing the contract to get number available to meet the diagrams.

Is the contract somehow framed to emphasise trains being covered (even if shortened) rather than the full number of sets being provided.

Also is the reason for the shortage completely understood? For example, it can be stated that "urgent repairs are needed", when in fact the work required is simple but the relevant spares are not to hand because the stores manager has been given an unnecessarily low allowance for ordering them, to meet some financial target. Or fitters are not allowed overtime, again to meet some imposed budget.