GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[hwl]

With the GWR and Scotrail short sets are the best available Mk3 coaches from GWR being used i.e. not the oldest ones and no conversions from buffets?

 

[brel york]

My understanding is that the plug doors for Chiltern were complex, late and over budget. This was because there turned out to be little consistency in the body shape of the mark 3s and everything had to be done bespoke rather than using standard parts. In addition the operation of plug doors generally is less reliable and the maintenance more expensive because they have more moving parts.

The current delays seem to be more to do with getting the new setup to work with the HST braking systems rather than anything to do with the doors themselves. If that's the case they would likely have been encountered whether they'd gone with the new setup or the Chiltern-style plug doors.

Your right about the chiterns , they were bespoke, Irish rail mk 3 and 442 had plug doors so it’s not brain surgery
The issue with these isn’t so much the doors , there straight forward, the interface with the old panelling,toilet walls and the new header panels , vestibule ceilings is causing a lot of headaches , lots of vesting issues

 

[mic505]

Are these vesting issues still ongoing or resolved?

 

[brel york]

On going , early feb looks tight ,

 

[brel york]

Vest end panels not made yet either

 

[43096]

Your right about the chiterns , they were bespoke, Irish rail mk 3 and 442 had plug doors so it’s not brain surgery

They are a lot easier to fit when the vehicles are new than trying to convert 40 year old vehicles that have done millions of miles.

 

[Domh245]

They are a lot easier to fit when the vehicles are new than trying to convert 40 year old vehicles that have done millions of miles.

Is there not also an issue with them being too narrow for wheelchair users to get past as a result of the pole on which the door pivots? I think the 442s were granted a derogation, but I'm not sure you'd be able to build new (or convert) something that wasn't compliant

 

[brel york]

That’s the problem , all the br stock up to the advent of the aluminium bodied stock (158-165 etc) had big build tolerances , 4mm in a 1000mm on a lot of fabrications so there was more of an element of coach built but the quality of staff was higher , when we moved onto building the 165 everything was more accurate, Less room for errors but a bit simpler to build

 

[brel york]

Is there not also an issue with them being too narrow for wheelchair users to get past as a result of the pole on which the door pivots? I think the 442s were granted a derogation, but I'm not sure you'd be able to build new (or convert) something that wasn't compliant

They do operate on a pole system yes

 

[co-tr-paul]

Not my photo.

 

[Pete_uk]

Looks smart!

 

[Ash Bridge]

With those new sliding doors the mk3 trailer cars now appear much more in keeping with the new 8xx trains, thanks for posting!

 

[mic505]

As soon as they're finally in passenger traffic they will be.

 

[mic505]

£125K per coach (including all PRM work and CET tanks), though. As mentioned before, this conversion should have been implemented seven years ago (after the Chiltern method).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

£125K per coach (including all PRM work and CET tanks), though. As mentioned before, this conversion should have been implemented seven years ago (after the Chiltern method).

I'd argue they should've been built with power doors. The technology existed at the time of going into production.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I'd argue they should've been built with power doors. The technology existed at the time of going into production.

Although when you allow for the fact that they were only intended as a stopgap with a 15 year service life expectancy it was probably considered that the additional cost for fitting power doors would have pushed the construction costs way beyond the original budget, especially when you consider the size of the fleet.

 

[jimm]

£125K per coach (including all PRM work and CET tanks), though. As mentioned before, this conversion should have been implemented seven years ago (after the Chiltern method).

Why? At the time GWR last put its HST Mk3s through works for a major refresh (before Chiltern had a Mk3, never mind did the plug door work and the first set entered service in 2012), it was expected that the HSTs would be leaving service some years ago, so it was deemed not worth the cost.

And if it had been done following the method adopted by Chiltern - as noted above essentially a bespoke job for every single coach - it would have taken a very long time.

The work now being done on the Scotrail, XC and retained GWR sets uses a brand-new design, intended to avoid the issues encountered during the Chiltern project.

 

[brel york]

Still not easy mind

 

[jimm]

I don't doubt it. Looks like some full-on engineering work was needed to get to what is shown in the picture above, compared with what was there before.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Although when you allow for the fact that they were only intended as a stopgap with a 15 year service life expectancy it was probably considered that the additional cost for fitting power doors would have pushed the construction costs way beyond the original budget, especially when you consider the size of the fleet.

Well of course, hindsight is always 20-20... but can anyone find me an example of a "stop-gap" solution on the railway that remained as such?

 

[47802]

Blimey half a million for a 4 coach, not so cheap even by railway standards, one wonders whether an alternative rolling stock solution could have been found for the GWR ones, it will be interesting to see what happens regarding the MML HST's given its going to be a million per set! and times running out to do them.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Blimey half a million for a 4 coach, not so cheap even by railway standards, one wonders whether an alternative rolling stock solution could have been found for the GWR ones, it will be interesting to see what happens regarding the MML HST's given its going to be a million per set! and times running out to do them.

Then again, a mere drop in the ocean compared to a new build 4 Car DMU costing what £6-7m apiece?

 

[47802]

Then again, a mere drop in the ocean compared to a new build 4 Car DMU costing what £6-7m apiece?

But then a new DMU will likely have lower operating costs and last 30 years, while the HST might last 10 years but I suspect they will probably be replaced at some point by the winner of the next GWR franchise.

 

[dmncf]

They do operate on a pole system yes

Will these Mark 3 coaches rebuilt with power doors have a pole in the doorway like a Class 442?

 

[Ash Bridge]

But then a new DMU will likely have lower operating costs and last 30 years, while the HST might last 10 years but I suspect they will probably be replaced at some point by the winner of the next GWR franchise.

I take your point about the probable lower running cost, though I'm fairly confident that those HST sets will still be knocking around after 10 years, probably more like 15 at least.

 

[Domh245]

Will these Mark 3 coaches rebuilt with power doors have a pole in the doorway like a Class 442?

No, the pole in the 442s is so that the doors can pivot out on it. The Mk3s currently being done all have sliding doors, so no need for a pole to pivot around.

 

[Non Multi]

But then a new DMU will likely have lower operating costs and last 30 years, while the HST might last 10 years but I suspect they will probably be replaced at some point by the winner of the next GWR franchise.

I could see the short sets soldiering on longer, maybe with replacement power cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the pole in the 442s is so that the doors can pivot out on it. The Mk3s currently being done all have sliding doors, so no need for a pole to pivot around.

The 442s interestingly have two types of power door - the Dutch style ones with the pole are at the vehicle ends, any that are not at the vehicle ends are conventional sliding:

442 cab end door

 

[Domh245]

The 442s interestingly have two types of power door - the Dutch style ones with the pole are at the vehicle ends, any that are not at the vehicle ends are conventional sliding:

Good spot - I wonder why that is? It must presumably be something to do with the cab. And it's what you might more commonly call a standard style plug door - sliding is usually taken to mean sliding pocket!

 

[physics34]

The 442s interestingly have two types of power door - the Dutch style ones with the pole are at the vehicle ends, any that are not at the vehicle ends are conventional sliding:

442 cab end door

Yeh i think originally these doors were locked to the public when the cab this end was the cab in use. This may have something to do with it