GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[ijmad]

All four standard, no buffet. TS, TS, TS, TGS.

TS: Trailer Standard
TGS: Trailer Guard Standard

Ah very nice. I guess no first class makes sense on the more 'local' services where they're going to be used. Thanks for the info and sorry if that's been asked before!

 

[43 302]

Ah very nice. I guess no first class makes sense on the more 'local' services where they're going to be used. Thanks for the info and sorry if that's been asked before!

No problem. To be honest, I think a first class carraige would be great for some of the diagrams eg Penzance to Cardiff but then again I think I just miss the old seats.

 

[Ashley Hill]

What is the coach formation on these? First-Standard-Standard-Standard presumably, but are they using the half buffet/shop cars?

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

Whilst I regret the abolition of buffets on the IETs, it would seem rather odd if they were introduced by the same operator on second tier services, which are mainly a combination of a couple of local services.

 

[Geoff DC]

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

They would be excellent and an alternative to XC, but DFT may not like that as they would make the IET definitely look & feel the inferior product in spite of the advanced age of the HSTs.

Also for many a 1st offering would be a good choice for PZ/Truro - Plymouth which is longer than many InterCity routes.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Whilst I regret the abolition of buffets on the IETs, it would seem rather odd if they were introduced by the same operator on second tier services, which are mainly a combination of a couple of local services.

There are trolleys on the CDF-PMH services. When First took over Wessex they were immediately done away with on West of England services.

 

[Richard Scott]

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

When I went on the loco hauled set in 2018 from Par to Plymouth, the buffet was open and doing very nicely. Shame they don't have foresight to do it now, loss of much needed revenue? Perhaps they need to be a little more enterprising?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Also for many a 1st offering would be a good choice for PZ/Truro - Plymouth which is longer than many InterCity routes.

I don't think 1st would work on the 255s. Too many scroats in the west would abuse it.

 

[Mex I can]

Nice one woodhouse122! You must have been on platform 1, whilst I was working below track level outside the radiator factory. I noticed fgwrich got the vehicles in order.

 

[fgwrich]

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

Whilst I regret the abolition of buffets on the IETs, it would seem rather odd if they were introduced by the same operator on second tier services, which are mainly a combination of a couple of local services.

I rather agree, it would have been nice to have seen the old TRSMB's kept on for some of these services - as it wouldn't have taken up too much space. But sadly, like you say I cant see the DfT liking the idea of the HSTs showing up its pet. I would have been good for some of the longer distance services they are / will be supposed to operate though.

 

[northernbelle]

The old coach F miniature buffets would probably have done quite well on the PNZ-CDF services. On the Alphaline 158s the trolley was very popular.

Given there wasn't any catering on the trains the 255s have replaced, there's no particular reason why they should. Catering might have increased revenue, but it would certainly have been loss-making as with all on-train catering.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The Alphaline trolleys did very well with both Wales and West and Wessex. As I said earlier FGW got rid of them in the west.

 

[fgwrich]

The Alphaline trolleys did very well with both Wales and West and Wessex. As I said earlier FGW got rid of them in the west.

Indeed, I remember using them and how busy they were. Not bad for a 158! The argument that "catering doesn't do to well these days" only really works if you have something to compare it to, and I don't see how difficult it could have been if a TRSMB offered a trolley style selection. But a least we have the HSTs over decades of sprinter use, which is a base positive.

 

[broadgage]

Whilst many customers would like a buffet, It would indeed show up the downgraded service on IETs
Reporters would make unflattering comparisons between old trains and new if buffets were allowed. The emphasis on todays railway is "what downgrades can we get away with"

First class likewise has been much reduced in both capacity and quality in the IETs, any "proper" first class being allowed on the short HSTs would again result in unwelcome comparisons.

 

[Richard Scott]

Whilst many customers would like a buffet, It would indeed show up the downgraded service on IETs
Reporters would make unflattering comparisons between old trains and new if buffets were allowed. The emphasis on todays railway is "what downgrades can we get away with"

First class likewise has been much reduced in both capacity and quality in the IETs, any "proper" first class being allowed on the short HSTs would again result in unwelcome comparisons.

What a ridiculous situation that we can't improve the travel experience on certain routes for fear of comparison with others.

 

[northernbelle]

What a ridiculous situation that we can't improve the travel experience on certain routes for fear of comparison with others.

It's not ridiculous - it's completely untrue. It's not provided because there's absolutely no commercial sense in doing so.

 

[43096]

I rather agree, it would have been nice to have seen the old TRSMB's kept on for some of these services - as it wouldn't have taken up too much space. But sadly, like you say I cant see the DfT liking the idea of the HSTs showing up its pet. I would have been good for some of the longer distance services they are / will be supposed to operate though.

That would have been more complicated because the TRSMBs are all Porterbrook owned and Angel have the design IPR for the sliding doors. A deal was done for the Porterbrook XC fleet on a "one off" basis, before anyone asks!

 

[broadgage]

It's not ridiculous - it's completely untrue. It's not provided because there's absolutely no commercial sense in doing so.

And in about 25 years time, the IETs will be replaced with something newer.
"no need for buffet, because the previous stock had no buffet" probably no need for a trolley either on the grounds that the often non existant trolleys on the IET were little used.
To me providing a buffet is part of running a long distance train service, even if not directly profitable.
After all how much profit is made by luggage racks ?

 

[northernbelle]

And in about 25 years time, the IETs will be replaced with something newer.
"no need for buffet, because the previous stock had no buffet" probably no need for a trolley either on the grounds that the often non existant trolleys on the IET were little used.
To me providing a buffet is part of running a long distance train service, even if not directly profitable.
After all how much profit is made by luggage racks ?

Given the vast, vast majority of passengers don't avail themselves to on-train catering, the majority don't seem to agree with you.

 

[fgwrich]

That would have been more complicated because the TRSMBs are all Porterbrook owned and Angel have the design IPR for the sliding doors. A deal was done for the Porterbrook XC fleet on a "one off" basis, before anyone asks!

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. The only other way around it would have been for the franchise to buy them and make them part of the franchise assets (as per some of the PCs). What a complicated case of ownership with the fleet we have! That reminds me, I wonder if any deal has been struck over the 409s yet, or if First Group is still paying the costs on those in LM.

 

[Richard Scott]

It's not ridiculous - it's completely untrue. It's not provided because there's absolutely no commercial sense in doing so.

Why is it untrue - so adding a buffet wouldn't improve the travelling experience? That's what I was saying, I like a buffet as do many others and as I'd pointed out when it was open on the class 57 hauled rake in 2018 was doing quite nicely thank you with the two stewards (can't imagine why it needs two), and if it wasn't worthwhile why would they open it? Must make some money.

 

[northernbelle]

Why is it untrue - so adding a buffet wouldn't improve the travelling experience? That's what I was saying, I like a buffet as do many others and as I'd pointed out when it was open on the class 57 hauled rake in 2018 was doing quite nicely thank you with the two stewards (can't imagine why it needs two), and if it wasn't worthwhile why would they open it? Must make some money.

What's untrue is the suggestion that it isn't done so as not to show up the catering offer on the long distance services.
Of course it takes some money, but it invariably costs more than it takes. No sensible business would increase the deficit like that unless it had to.

 

[Richard Scott]

What's untrue is the suggestion that it isn't done so as not to show up the catering offer on the long distance services.
Of course it takes some money, but it invariably costs more than it takes. No sensible business would increase the deficit like that unless it had to.

But that was original quote. My point was why was buffet open on the 57 hauled service it it wasn't making (notice this word not taking) money? If there's no business case for it then fair enough but someone suggested that it wouldn't look good when compared to what was offered on IET services, that's where my comment on it being ridiculous came from. Don't expect a buffet service to be provided if doesn't make money. However they could be franchised and someone else takes the risk. If no-one takes it up then that's that, no buffet but at least opportunity was there.

 

[northernbelle]

But that was original quote. My point was why was buffet open on the 57 hauled service it it wasn't making (notice this word not taking) money? If there's no business case for it then fair enough but someone suggested that it wouldn't look good when compared to what was offered on IET services, that's where my comment on it being ridiculous came from. Don't expect a buffet service to be provided if doesn't make money. However they could be franchised and someone else takes the risk. If no-one takes it up then that's that, no buffet but at least opportunity was there.

It's all been done in the past - for a time there was an experiment with Costa Coffee on board the Class 180s - it didn't last too long. The margins are so tight (or non-existent) on train catering that you'll be very hard pushed to find someone external willing to take the risk. Rail Gourmet and a small number of smaller companies are about all who are out there and manage to improve the margins by employing staff on considerably inferior terms and conditions when compared with those staff employed directly by TOCs. They also manage to reduce margins further by finding efficiencies by having both on-train and fixed station catering outlets.

I've long felt that TOCs should look harder at providing an in-house catering service at stations, although it might be the fierce competition offered by the big brand names is what's dissuaded them from doing so.

One major difference between now and even 20 years ago is that station based retail has increased in both quantity and quality. I realise that is no comfort for those boarding at a station without facilities (or those on a train for many hours), but the truth is that on board catering simply cannot match what passengers can purchase elsewhere in both quality and cost.

There is a market of on board catering, but time and again it's been proven to be insufficient to make it financially worthwhile. It has been retained on longer distance services because it is seen as an essential utility on such journeys, not because it's a sensible business proposition.

To go back to the original point, adding unnecessary extra cost to the HST conversions was never going to be likely when the cost of operating an HST is already considerably higher than the equivalent length 15x fleets they have replaced. I think most folk are just happy with the upgrade in the train, even if that type did traditionally have a catering offer before.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Why is it untrue?

I think the point is that just because one poster suggests that the reason it isn't done is because it would show up the newer stock and thus the DfT won't allow it, doesn't mean that that is a fact. All it is is one poster's opinion. So to then suggest that it's a ridiculous state of affairs is simplying taking that poster's opinion as fact, when there's no proof.

The fact that GWR is running HST's instead of DMU's is a very positive step in my opinion, and I would suggest the majority of views here would echo that. To then suggest that without buffets these services are not appropriate misses the point. They haven't had any catering for the last decade or so, and indeed the local route from Cardiff to Taunton, on which many of these will ply their trade as part of have never had buffets on what are local trains. So that's much more likely why DfT didn't agree to it. I suspect it was more the case that the suggestion wasn't even put to them, and why would it be when these trains are replacing those on which there hasn't been catering of any description for years, let alone a buffet (barring the one exception mentioned above).

 

[37424]

Whilst the short HST's do work some longish runs, its not an Inter-City service they are regional trains for substancially local traffic, there is no need for 1st class and no need for a Buffet Car, and if there was a strong case for any catering I'm sure a trolley service would be adequate.

 

[irish_rail]

One of the problems with buffets on 2 + 4s is they are very lightly used, even before covid. I have probably "passed" on about 15 in past year or so in the far south west and never been more than 6 or 7 in the carriage max.
Passengers are avoiding them generally In order to get the limited stop IETs or because generally, most are travelling further afield and therefore stick to the IETs.

 

[berneyarms]

People do need to remember that these shortened HSTs, in the main, are, as 37424 posts above, operating local services between Penzance and Plymouth (supplementary services over the previous timetable and replacing Sprinters on other services), with some extensions to Exeter, and between Cardiff and Taunton, with a very limited number of Penzance to Cardiff services operating (again replacing Sprinters).

Most of these services involve people making much shorter regional journeys.

While a trolley could certainly work on some of the journeys, I don't think those kinds of journeys warrant a buffet car, and certainly not first class.

 

[Energy]

People do need to remember that these shortened HSTs, in the main, are, as 37424 posts above, operating local services between Penzance and Plymouth (supplementary services over the previous timetable and replacing Sprinters on other services), with some extensions to Exeter, and between Cardiff and Taunton, with a very limited number of Penzance to Cardiff services operating (again replacing Sprinters).

Most of these services involve people making much shorter regional journeys.

While a trolley could certainly work on some of the journeys, I don't think those kinds of journeys warrant a buffet car, and certainly not first class.

The routes which short HSTs work would be operated by 158s if GWR had enough as they aren't intercity routes but the short HSTs have helped get rid of pacers through cascading sprinters, even if they aren't the most suited trains to these services.

 

[Envoy]

Mention has been made that these stopping services tend not to carry long distance passengers. I would like to point out that the 8am direct (stopping service) from Cardiff to Plymouth takes 3 hours 30 minutes). Alternatively, someone could leave Cardiff at 8.41 and arrive Plymouth 3 hours 23 minutes later with 2 changes.

A passenger could depart Plymouth at 8.48am on a direct (stopping service) to Cardiff arriving 3 hours 36 minutes later. Alternatively, they could leave Plymouth at 8.42am on Cross Country to arrive Cardiff 3 hours 30 minutes later with 1 change at Bristol Parkway. All timings quoted here are for Saturdays though, I expect weekdays are the same.

I bet that most passengers would opt for the ‘slow stopping’ service because by the time you bother with the changes, there is nothing much in it. Of course, price would also be a factor and this is one of the routes where it pays to split the ticket at least once as the through fares are expensive - thus encouraging road transport!