GWR short train lengths

[Western Sunset]

But take out Chippenham you save about 6 minutes as most trains are stood there for 3 or 4 minutes. Didcot, again you save over 5 minutes, as always a slow approach on the up into Didcot due to the insistence that the platform end signal is at red and ATP and TPWS won't allow anything other than the slowest approach most of the time. So replace Didcot with green signals , and no station stop, and combined with losing Chippenham I reckon you are looking at over 10 minutes shaved off journey time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2023 ==

I think that the above comment illustrates where time savings can be made, rather than omitting stops.
1. Cutting dwell times - often these appear to be padded-out
2. Have better station approach control signalling and install faster turnouts (where necessary)

 

[Dan G]

Sat? On an XC service? How on earth to you manage to escape the vestibule where everyone else is stood?

The same way everyone else who is sitting down did.

 

[Krokodil]

It's much the same as the the super fasts though, yes it's faster but that doesn't actually attract that many customers over a few minuted benefit, yet you're getting rid of a large amount of passengers by not stopping at their station. You're making anyone between Oxford and Didcot travel to Reading, increasing their journey times by 30 minutes plus and making them a significant extra cost, solely to benefit people from London by a few minutes, 10 at most.

At chippenham you're cutting their entire train service to hourly, despite having annual passenger levels of a million. If anything Chippenham is underserved already.

What were the timings of the fast service? The stoppers mostly take 95 minutes so cropping off ten minutes does make the journey seem a lot faster than the actual time saved.

 

[The exile]

I highly doubt that there are many commuters going from London to Bath, travelling frequently on these trains myself I would say it is much more holiday makers, tourists and locals, which after all is their main intention.

Plenty pre-Covid at least the other way round

 

[Benjwri]

What were the timings of the fast service compared with the stopper?

~71 minutes compared to ~90-95

 

[Krokodil]

Quite a good saving then, though irritatingly short of sub-1hr.

 

[geordieblue]

Oh right in that case you'll be happy to swap some GWR 5 cars for some ECML 9 cars, say 2 5s for one 9? That way ECML can have more stock and make do with the shortforms and not GWR. GwR intercity is very comparable to LNER intercity in terms of populations and tourist markets.

I was making the point that the problem is more stock utilisation and making the most of flexibility and less ‘GWR don’t have enough trains’. This has not been helped by the issues around cancelled electrification which has reduced flexibility but I’m still not sure how GWR is getting a raw deal.

 

[Master29]

I was making the point that the problem is more stock utilisation and making the most of flexibility and less ‘GWR don’t have enough trains’. This has not been helped by the issues around cancelled electrification which has reduced flexibility but I’m still not sure how GWR is getting a raw deal.

I think Irish rail has made that clear. Persistent short forms throughout the network. A pathetic unused kitchen car. Even you'd have to admit that doesn't happen on the East Coast quite so frequently. We're not talking recently either. It's been admitted by many forum leaders that the East Coast is more profitable and that is probably true. Clearly you don't get to the South West very much. I'm sure many a folk from GWR land would happily fill you in on a few details.

 

[geordieblue]

I think Irish rail has made that clear. Persistent short forms throughout the network. A pathetic unused kitchen car. Even you'd have to admit that doesn't happen on the East Coast quite so frequently. We're not talking recently either. It's been admitted by many forum leaders that the East Coast is more profitable and that is probably true. Clearly you don't get to the South West very much. I'm sure many a folk from GWR land would happily fill you in on a few details.

Not sure the need for the last line since I’ve agreed with your basic point?

 

[Annetts key]

I don't think there are any 125mph stretches in the UK that aren't under wires anyway. They struggle on climbs anywhere it seems.

On the GWML, Chippenham to Middle Hill Tunnel (just south west of Box Tunnel).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2023 ==

It depends. Cutting timings from 62 minutes to 59 minutes make the journey seem a lot faster to a passenger - "over an hour" vs "less than an hour", in the same way that £9.99 sounds a lot less than £10.00 even though they are as good as the same.

Cutting 75 minutes to 72 on the other hand won't be noticed by passengers as it doesn't cross a memorable threshold.

You are joking right? Have you looked at some of the through trains (yes, IET 80X) services that sit at Bristol Temple Meads for TEN minutes?

I don’t remember the through IC125 HST services being timetabled to sit at Bristol Temple Meads for that long.

 

[Benjwri]

I don’t remember the through IC125 HST services being timetabled to sit at Bristol Temple Meads for that long.

That's not to do with it being a IET though, unless it's joining or detaching, it's pathing

 

[Annetts key]

That's not to do with it being a IET though, unless it's joining or detaching, it's pathing

Pathing? Not convinced. And it’s not scheduled to join or detach.
It may be due to timetabling reasons (e.g. to maintain a clock face pattern) though.

I’ve not looked into this in any detail however. But it does look odd to the passenger. You get on a “high speed” intercity modern train south of Bristol. Then hear the guard (train manager) announce that the scheduled stop at Temple Meads is ten minutes…

 

[Benjwri]

Pathing? Not convinced.

As in to keep it on its path into London. Otherwise it would end up sitting somewhere else for 10 minutes. As for why it has to arrive to early it's probably another conflict.

 

[Falcon1200]

But yes that OOC stop is going to be really annoying when it happens.

I think for Western region intercity passengers it will prove very much a white elephant.

That depends on the journey; For my regular trips between Glasgow and Oxford, a same station change at OOC with an hourly HS2 express will be more attractive than via Birmingham with only a two-hourly, at best, Glasgow train, and XC.

 

[irish_rail]

I think Irish rail has made that clear. Persistent short forms throughout the network. A pathetic unused kitchen car. Even you'd have to admit that doesn't happen on the East Coast quite so frequently. We're not talking recently either. It's been admitted by many forum leaders that the East Coast is more profitable and that is probably true. Clearly you don't get to the South West very much. I'm sure many a folk from GWR land would happily fill you in on a few details.

Exactly. I think people who don't get out west often conveniently forget that its not a short hop out of London. I think some think that Plymouth for example is just down the road from Portsmouth, and it is often forgotten how "west" the south west actually is. 5 car shortforms wouldn't be tolerated (rightly so) on journies to Scotland from London , and yet journies to the south west take a similar amount of time. All this " a 5 car is better than no train" just doesn't wash on such long trips.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2023 ==

That depends on the journey; For my regular trips between Glasgow and Oxford, a same station change at OOC with an hourly HS2 express will be more attractive than via Birmingham with only a two-hourly, at best, Glasgow train, and XC.

Fine, but for many years HS2 will only serve Birmingham . Once Glasgow etc are added then perhaps OOC stops would have more meaning.

 

[geordieblue]

Exactly. I think people who don't get out west often conveniently forget that it’s not a short hop out of London. I think some think that Plymouth for example is just down the road from Portsmouth, and it is often forgotten how "west" the south west actually is. 5 car shortforms wouldn't be tolerated (rightly so) on journies to Scotland from London , and yet journies to the south west take a similar amount of time. All this " a 5 car is better than no train" just doesn't wash on such long trips.

My point is not that GWR has it ‘good’ currently. My issue is with the petty point scoring and comparisons with other franchises which all have their own issues. I have a soft spot for Devon in particular - I have no bone to pick with the south west as a whole - my issue is the whole conversation over ‘X/Y franchise’ which IMO conveniently ignores the fact that problems here are primarily down to the DfT and secondly down to GWR management.

 

[Energy]

Fine, but for many years HS2 will only serve Birmingham . Once Glasgow etc are added then perhaps OOC stops would have more meaning.

No, trains will still continue to Manchester etc. via Handsacre.

 

[irish_rail]

No, trains will still continue to Manchester etc. via Handsacre.

Will it really be much quicker than a direct train from say Exeter though?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Pathing? Not convinced. And it’s not scheduled to join or detach.
It may be due to timetabling reasons (e.g. to maintain a clock face pattern) though.

I’ve not looked into this in any detail however. But it does look odd to the passenger. You get on a “high speed” intercity modern train south of Bristol. Then hear the guard (train manager) announce that the scheduled stop at Temple Meads is ten minutes…

Its entirely down to pathing and the available slots on/off the single line between Worle Jn and Weston-super-Mare. The paths between London and Bristol are pretty set in stone in each direction so it makes sense to sit at Bristol TM to minimise the journey times to/from London for the key leg of the journey.

 

[irish_rail]

And the more I think about it, I'm not convinced there will be this great swathe of people from the south west visiting London who will be better off changing at Old Oak onto the Liz line, than the present situation where they get a 23 minute journey time from Reading into Paddington and then get a very easy (I've done it and can confirm) transfer down onto the Elizabeth line). Not quite sure how changing at Old Oak Common instead is going to make anyone travelling from the south wests journey any quicker, easier or better......and even less so in the down direction. Once again, I do understand why the planners will insist everything stops at OOC, so please don't shout me down, I'm just pointing out that no one in the West is better off thanks to HS2.

 

[Horizon22]

Fine, but for many years HS2 will only serve Birmingham . Once Glasgow etc are added then perhaps OOC stops would have more meaning.

You’re also forgetting about the Elizabeth line connection which will be an even easier interchange than Paddington (which isn’t that hard currently) and also to Heathrow.

 

[Energy]

Will it really be much quicker than a direct train from say Exeter though?

It'll be less than 90 minutes from OOC post phase 1, about 70 post phase 2b iirc.

 

[Benjwri]

Realistically with the decrease in commuters, and increase in tourists who are less versed in which is best to change at, it will be whatever the journey planners tell people to change at that actually wins, and realistically that's going to come down to interchange times in a fair few cases.

 

[irish_rail]

You’re also forgetting about the Elizabeth line connection which will be an even easier interchange than Paddington (which isn’t that hard currently) and also to Heathrow.

As you say, it isn't that hard at the minute. I just don't see the appeal, indeed Paddington will be more attractive to many as its an attraction in its own right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2023 ==

It'll be less than 90 minutes from OOC post phase 1, about 70 post phase 2b iirc.

So from Exeter to Manchester, not really any quicker, just guarantees you will have to change trains, and no doubt pricier.

 

[REVUpminster]

2F10 cancelled from Paignton. 1h9m gap 2F09 to 2F11 and it's 2 car.
On the plus side 1C70 runs today; maybe because it is Friday, been cancelled all week.

2 2 car 158s running to Barnstaple.

First trains from Okehampton Gunnislake Looe Falmouth cancelled.

 

[irish_rail]

2F10 cancelled from Paignton. 1h9m gap 2F09 to 2F11 and it's 2 car.
On the plus side 1C70 runs today; maybe because it is Friday, been cancelled all week.

2 2 car 158s running to Barnstaple.

First trains from Okehampton Gunnislake Looe Falmouth cancelled.

Yeah 1c70 is a funny one. Driven by a Plymouth driver who has to travel passenger Plymouth to Westbury to take up the reins! No wander they are choosing not to run 1c70 and use the crew they have more effectively. The amount of crew "passing" on the Western at the moment is mind boggling. Much of the increase (on my patch at least) is due to Exeter "west" drivers having b and h work created for them, when in reality it worked better before when HSS did most of that kind of work. Rant over.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

2F10 cancelled from Paignton. 1h9m gap 2F09 to 2F11 and it's 2 car.
On the plus side 1C70 runs today; maybe because it is Friday, been cancelled all week.

2 2 car 158s running to Barnstaple.

First trains from Okehampton Gunnislake Looe Falmouth cancelled.

Industrial Action - Action Short of a Strike this week.

 

[irish_rail]

Looks like plenty of short forms out of the west country this morning. Just what you want on a Friday in August! I suppose the families who probably won't physically be able to board the 0710 PZ to Padd by time it gets to Taunton should count themselves flipping lucky that the train ran at all... seriously, something needs to be done. Its all very well telling Hitachi to step up, but if the parts that where specified were all dirt cheap when building the train, then how realistic is it that Hitachi will ever be able to improve things considerably..... it is time for some new build 9 car sets, no matter the cost. And if that comes out of another DFt budget , then that's what needs to happen. We can't go on like this. Its heart breaking to see.

 

[Xavi]

Looks like plenty of short forms out of the west country this morning. Just what you want on a Friday in August! I suppose the families who probably won't physically be able to board the 0710 PZ to Padd by time it gets to Taunton should count themselves flipping lucky that the train ran at all... seriously, something needs to be done. Its all very well telling Hitachi to step up, but if the parts that where specified were all dirt cheap when building the train, then how realistic is it that Hitachi will ever be able to improve things considerably..... it is time for some new build 9 car sets, no matter the cost. And if that comes out of another DFt budget , then that's what needs to happen. We can't go on like this. Its heart breaking to see.

I happened to be changing trains in Exeter before 0710 PZ arrived. The very high demand on that route was apparent from the waiting passengers, then I heard the announcement that it was only 5 carriages and no seat reservations. Passengers were being encouraged not to board and wait for a later train before the IET arrived, so I took a picture.

However, we must, of course, remember these trains are nowhere near as profitable at LNER despite higher fares! The accounting processes e.g., revenue / cost allocation, profitability by TOC grouped routes has a lot to answer for.

 

[irish_rail]

I happened to be changing trains in Exeter before 0710 PZ arrived. The very high demand on that route was apparent from the waiting passengers, then I heard the announcement that it was only 5 carriages and no seat reservations. Passengers were being encouraged not to board and wait for a later train before the IET arrived, so I took a picture.

However, we must, of course, remember these trains are nowhere near as profitable at LNER despite higher fares! The accounting processes e.g., revenue / cost allocation, profitability by TOC grouped routes has a lot to answer for.

Indeed. Shows the priorities of this government are so so wrong. Rich Americans travelling to Edinburgh, over working class families enjoying their one week summer holiday at the beach in Devon.