GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[father_jack]

Who cares whos passengers they are, they all pay their fares and deserve to get to their destinations.

Totally agree, gets people moving.

 

[43066]

The only fix shorter term is to increase the working week for all train crew from 35 hour weeks to a 40 hour week (on average), adding an additional 2 days work every four weeks. That would involve a hefty pay rise and many train crew don't want their working week increased. It would take many years to go from a 6 to 7 day working week while keeping the hours at 35.

The only other options is a drastic cut in Sunday service provision or cut services in the week to facilitate a 35hr week over 7 days.

Absolutely no way that would be agreed to, and quite rightly.

Surely the obvious short term fix is to provide better incentives to crews to work Sundays to encourage volunteers, treble or quadruple time if necessary. In the medium term negotiate to offer all existing crews the option to bring Sundays inside the week for a pay rise (most will go for it based on my TOC’s experience), with all new recruits having it in the week by default, with recruitment adjusted accordingly.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Are new entrants allowed to be on different terms to existing staff?

 

[43066]

Are new entrants allowed to be on different terms to existing staff?

ASLEF have agreed to it where I am. It’s the ideal solution, really, as nobody who really doesn’t want to bring Sundays inside is forced to do so, yet those who wish to are incentivised. You then just build separate links for those who keep their Sundays outside.

New joiners have Sundays in by default, which is what they sign up for.

 

[dk1]

Are new entrants allowed to be on different terms to existing staff?

Certainly not at my TOC. All new entrants take the same contracts as all other drivers at their respective depot.

 

[Harpo]

Are new entrants allowed to be on different terms to existing staff?

I believe GWR has drivers on pre-existing and closed High Speed T&Cs and that anyone joining now gets GWR Driver T&Cs?

I believe they have differing links and traction knowledge in some places too?

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe GWR has drivers on pre-existing and closed High Speed T&Cs and that anyone joining now gets GWR Driver T&Cs?

I believe they have differing links and traction knowledge in some places too?

That's what I'm told.

Plus, critically, although plenty of drivers have Sunday in the working week this apparently doesn't apply to any Train Managers.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

That's what I'm told.

Plus, critically, although plenty of drivers have Sunday in the working week this apparently doesn't apply to any Train Managers.

No GWR drivers have Sunday in the working week. Not a single one.

Are new entrants allowed to be on different terms to existing staff?

Not a completely different contract, no, but if an agreement was reached with current drivers for them to also go to the ‘new’ contract if desired (as @43066 stated), then that would be fine.

 

[whoosh]

LNER Train Managers have Sunday in the working week, and the only other Guard roles which do that I can think of are South Western Railway and Eurostar.

I think the point being made is that where Sundays have been brought into the working week for Drivers, there often hasn't been a similar negotiated change for other roles - in particular the main other traincrew one.

 

[Snow1964]

I believe GWR has drivers on pre-existing and closed High Speed T&Cs and that anyone joining now gets GWR Driver T&Cs?

I believe they have differing links and traction knowledge in some places too?

My understanding is that new joiners since 2018 have 7 day contracts.

For high speed long distance trains majority are on old non Sunday T&Cs

 

[Sly Old Fox]

My understanding is that new joiners since 2018 have 7 day contracts.

For high speed long distance trains majority are on old non Sunday T&Cs

You understand incorrectly. Not one driver employed by GWR is on a 7 day contract. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

 

[74A]

You understand incorrectly. Not one driver employed by GWR is on a 7 day contract. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

Indeed. But they have to work their booked Sunday unless cover can be found. It's the approx 25% of drivers under the old t&c who don't have to.

 

[Towers]

Indeed. But they have to work their booked Sunday unless cover can be found. It's the approx 25% of drivers under the old t&c who don't have to.

We’re back to the difference twixt ‘Committed Sundays’ and ‘Sundays in the working week’ - the former simply means that a colleague is contracturally obliged to work their rostered Sunday shifts, but still as overtime and paid accordingly. The latter makes Sunday a regular working day on the same terms as Mon - Sat shifts.

The ‘Committed Sundays’ approach in theory is the best solution from the employers’ perspective, as they still get to cover the work with overtime and don’t have to increase the headcount, but everyone is still compelled to work whether they want to or not. The downside in reality is that nobody really wants to test it in court, and some crew (albeit a minority) may still refuse to work regardless, citing a defence of “enforced overtime”.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Indeed. But they have to work their booked Sunday unless cover can be found. It's the approx 25% of drivers under the old t&c who don't have to.

Works on paper, not in practice. A huge number of drivers with ‘committed’ Sundays don’t turn up each week.

 

[dk1]

Works on paper, not in practice. A huge number of drivers with ‘committed’ Sundays don’t turn up each week.

Totally different here where we’ve been on committed Sundays for 30 or more years. Just about all drivers respect their conditions of employment with an excellent working relationship with duty managers who will go out of their way to cover anyone who desperately needs the Sunday off.

 

[officewalla]

I believe GWR has drivers on pre-existing and closed High Speed T&Cs and that anyone joining now gets GWR Driver T&Cs?

I believe they have differing links and traction knowledge in some pla

My understanding is that new joiners since 2018 have 7 day contracts.

For high speed long distance trains majority are on old non Sunday T&Cs

New joiner drivers do not have 7 day contracts. Sundays are committed (1 in 3) for everyone at my depot but local agreements and HSS mean that other depots have different commitments.

 

[Bald Rick]

Works on paper, not in practice. A huge number of drivers with ‘committed’ Sundays don’t turn up each week.

That’s carefully worded.

Every driver in GWR on the GWR terms and conditions (as opposed to the ’High Speed’ terms and conditions) has a commitment to work a certain number of Sundays each year, when rostered. It is not every Sunday, obviously, and I also suspect that the number of Sundays required to be worked each year would be insifficient to work the service even if every driver was on thise conditions. If a driver doesn‘t want to work the Sunday(s) concerned, and they can find cover to do so*, then they don’t work it. Similarly, drivers that would ordinarily haveed work the Sunday but are off the footplate for any reason (illness, other absence, training, etc), will not ne working.

Therefore it is true that a large number of drivers with committed Sundays don’t turn up each week, but that’s because they were not required or expected to on that particular week.


*If not managed properly this can be a licence to print money.

 

[43066]

That’s carefully worded.

Every driver in GWR on the GWR terms and conditions (as opposed to the ’High Speed’ terms and conditions) has a commitment to work a certain number of Sundays each year, when rostered. It is not every Sunday, obviously, and I also suspect that the number of Sundays required to be worked each year would be insifficient to work the service even if every driver was on thise conditions. If a driver doesn‘t want to work the Sunday(s) concerned, and they can find cover to do so*, then they don’t work it. Similarly, drivers that would ordinarily haveed work the Sunday but are off the footplate for any reason (illness, other absence, training, etc), will not ne working.

Therefore it is true that a large number of drivers with committed Sundays don’t turn up each week, but that’s because they were not required or expected to on that particular week.


*If not managed properly this can be a licence to print money.

I think what’s being alluded to is that, because committed Sundays are overtime, if people do a no show or go sick it won’t carry as much weight as it would on a normal day (you won’t trigger the MFA policy for example). They will lose pay, but that’s about it. People are also much more likely to resort to doing this because these days can’t be booked off as annual leave.

Another reason why it’s a sub optimal arrangement!

 

[800301]

That’s carefully worded.

Every driver in GWR on the GWR terms and conditions (as opposed to the ’High Speed’ terms and conditions) has a commitment to work a certain number of Sundays each year, when rostered. It is not every Sunday, obviously, and I also suspect that the number of Sundays required to be worked each year would be insifficient to work the service even if every driver was on thise conditions. If a driver doesn‘t want to work the Sunday(s) concerned, and they can find cover to do so*, then they don’t work it. Similarly, drivers that would ordinarily haveed work the Sunday but are off the footplate for any reason (illness, other absence, training, etc), will not ne working.

Therefore it is true that a large number of drivers with committed Sundays don’t turn up each week, but that’s because they were not required or expected to on that particular week.


*If not managed properly this can be a licence to print money.

That’s a better answer but the finding cover bit has depot specific terms attached to it that probably is best not to be mentioned on a public forum.

It is only the drivers that joined after the company was GWR that have committed Sundays, those who were here under FGW that aren’t HSS also have the option to throw in their Sundays.

 

[officewalla]

Really unusual to find a Sunday turn not covered at my depot. There is a small group of drivers who will work every Sunday they can and these are well known to those who don't wish to work a Sunday and so rostering and resourcing just get advised that it is covered. If booked spare, then most likely going to sit spare for the whole of Sunday unless there are bits and pieces from nearby depots that can't be covered. Plenty of spare drivers on Sundays but do they sign the routes that are under pressure? Mostly not hence the pressure on HSS routes in particular. Secondly, does the timetable reflect the number of available drivers? Again I would suggest not. Questions like these should get resolved when Sundays come into the working week.

 

[Snow1964]

If booked spare, then most likely going to sit spare for the whole of Sunday unless there are bits and pieces from nearby depots that can't be covered. Plenty of spare drivers on Sundays but do they sign the routes that are under pressure?

Without wanting to sound stupidly naive, what is the purpose of booking someone as a spare, if they don't sign the routes or traction that are likely to need a spare driver.

Surely staff that are on spare turns, ought to ensure they have knowledge to be usable whatever needs covering, not just a fraction of possible routes.

 

[43066]

Without wanting to sound stupidly naive, what is the purpose of booking someone as a spare, if they don't sign the routes or traction that are likely to need a spare driver.

Surely staff that are on spare turns, ought to ensure they have knowledge to be usable whatever needs covering, not just a fraction of possible routes.

They’ll be spare by default because their jobs are cancelled, or not allocated a job, not because they’ve been specifically booked as such.

 

[plymothian]

Surely staff that are on spare turns, ought to ensure they have knowledge to be usable whatever needs covering, not just a fraction of possible routes.

That is up to GWR's competency system.
And drivers at some depots are set to have more routes taken off them in the New Year.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

And in some cases I suspect you can deploy a spare turn to cover core routes work to release another driver (who does have the necessary knowledge) to cover the required work?

 

[800301]

And in some cases I suspect you can deploy a spare turn to cover core routes work to release another driver (who does have the necessary knowledge) to cover the required work?

Providing they have sufficient duty time and agree to it but this is vary rarely the case and is a lot harder to implement than you would think taking into account walking and travelling time

 

[Snow1964]

Even with service suspensions Reading-Paddington and Westbury area, seems can't find enough crew for Frome-Weymouth services today (Saturday)

Something is seriously wrong when they are relying on excess volunteers doing overtime during school holidays, rather than having their reduced train service covered by normal roster.

 

[father_jack]

Even with service suspensions Reading-Paddington and Westbury area, seems can't find enough crew for Frome-Weymouth services today (Saturday)

Something is seriously wrong when they are relying on excess volunteers doing overtime during school holidays, rather than having their reduced train service covered by normal roster.

That was more a "train fault" really from yesterday. There was no train driver available to swap a unit that needed all the way around via Taunton because of the Westbury block. I'm assuming it's the same reason today.

 

[infobleep]

North Downs Line had cancellations today. For once they put in some alternatives for some of their passengers gers but not all.

They then announced the disruption was cleared. I am currently on a train that is running 19 minutes late due to crew late from the depot and then being stuck outside Redhill waiting for a platform.

The crew were late due to staff shortages, so, so much so for the disruption being cleared.

It didn't happen that the platform screens at Gatwick Airport said due until it switched to delayed. I could see the inbound seevixe was running 11 minutes late on the National Rail Enquiries app.

Still, delay repay will be due. Unfortunately I was late earlier and just missed the 18:59, which unlike this train was on time.

I guess this is what happens when they allow trains to run to Gatwick Airport rather than terminate them short. Of course terminating them short impacts on passengers at Gatwick Airport due to the timings of the other trains, either side of the Gatwick Airport trains. Either way they can't win.

 

[Jim]

North Downs Line had cancellations today. For once they put in some alternatives for some of their passengers gers but not all.

They then announced the disruption was cleared. I am currently on a train that is running 19 minutes late due to crew late from the depot and then being stuck outside Redhill waiting for a platform.

The crew were late due to staff shortages, so, so much so for the disruption being cleared.

It didn't happen that the platform screens at Gatwick Airport said due until it switched to delayed. I could see the inbound seevixe was running 11 minutes late on the National Rail Enquiries app.

Still, delay repay will be due. Unfortunately I was late earlier and just missed the 18:59, which unlike this train was on time.

I guess this is what happens when they allow trains to run to Gatwick Airport rather than terminate them short. Of course terminating them short impacts on passengers at Gatwick Airport due to the timings of the other trains, either side of the Gatwick Airport trains. Either way they can't win.

I believe there is an instruction that running to destination is now a priority on Gatwicks, with service recovery to take place on the main North Downs. Happy to be corrected by one of the local experts though.

 

[infobleep]

I believe there is an instruction that running to destination is now a priority on Gatwicks, with service recovery to take place on the main North Downs. Happy to be corrected by one of the local experts though.

That is nice to hear because it use to be the exact opposite.