GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[jayah]

It's one thing TFW have got right. Drivers now have Sundays as part of the working week and TFW see's very few cancellations due to resource availability lately. Sunday is now one of the busiest days for travel on TFW's network and i'm sure that is the same across the country.
Peoples travel habits have changed and TOC's need to grasp that and deal with it. I wonder how much revenue is lost from cancellations and refunds?

It is fantastically expensive though.

TfW had to uplift Conductor pay by 23% over 2 years to pay for it, £47k, still for 35hrs/week, rising again next year, as well as the additional recruitment. It would be quite a bit cheaper if they administered pruning shears to the weekday timetable to reduce the extra recruitment.

Northen pay 1,400 conductors £29k basic. With indirect payroll related costs and additional headcount, it would probably cost of the order £75m/yr to replicate, just for that one group.

Neither TOC makes money out of running trains. Northern's fare box last year was £360m. The bill would go straight to the taxpayer.

 

[Western 52]

GWR must pay a lot for delay repay! Yesterday again it was a case of late trains and train managers announcing details of how to claim. Their delay repay website must be their busiest!

 

[sh24]

So far...

17:05 Plymouth cancelled
Made the 16:35 Plymouth
15 minute late leaving
..and now we've hit an object on the track outside Midgham, emergency brake application and now waiting for someone to inspect the train and the track. I imagine object is a euphemism in this case...

 

[Sleepy]

Sadly on journeycheck emergency services dealing with incident between Reading and Newbury has just been posted.

 

[sh24]

Back on the move now, incident cleared. It was a deer.

 

[dk1]

GWR must pay a lot for delay repay! Yesterday again it was a case of late trains and train managers announcing details of how to claim. Their delay repay website must be their busiest!

Taxpayers just pick up the bill, or that’s how I look at it.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

Not a new phenomenon. I view Sundays as a “do not attempt to travel” day by default on GWR. There’s no visible evidence of them attempting to fix this problem that I’ve come across, it’s a pretty pathetic state of affairs for a major TOC.

 

[RPI]

There is also a vicious circle that quite a few staff don't want to work Sundays because it's so crap with cancellations etc, and it's so crap because people don't want to come in and work their Sundays. Whilst trains still run whether I'm there or not, I've not worked a Sunday for months because you just get abuse all day and probably stranded, quite a few must think the same.

 

[Wolfie]

It’s a shame they keep publishing the Sunday timetables when they must know by now (are we on the 4th or 5th week) they won’t be able to fulfil them.
Surprised they haven’t got an emergency bare minimum Sunday timetable or something so we can at least plan journeys in advance.

A potential issue with your 'emergency bare minimum timetable' is that GWR wouldn't necessarily know which depots had drivers prepared to work and what stock they could actually drive.

Whether it involves a 35hr week or a 37hr week, a permanent fix for this means a new contract.

Politically and financially, circa. 20% uplift in pay to sweeten the deal is untenable. As per P&O, if it is done as a mandatory restructuring, essential to the viability of the employer (which is unarguable) it shouldn't be possible for the unions to call a strike over a contract their members signed to stay in employment, or didn't sign by choosing to make themselves redundant.

They could strike over the next pay award, but they would still have zero political traction.

However I can't see a Labour government going there, with or without Louise Haigh, so the current mess shall probably continue indefinitely. Anyone up for £1,000/day?

Utter genius - an imposed contract. Even assuming firstly that was done and secondly that your assertion that there are already sufficient hours contracted is actually true (and just about every industry insider seems to believe that is utter bunkum) then your wonderful contract would poison the well on goodwill for decades to come. Good luck with a permanent work to rule.....

I forgot to say that the railway has traditionally, and probably rightly, prioritised work travel - mainly in the week - over leisure travel (mainly at the weekend) - hence when planned engineering work is generally done. You apparently want, for reasons you don't appear to care to explain, to change that. Don't exactly hold your breath!

 

[yorkie]

Can we please submit any posts of a speculative nature in the appropriate forum section.

Thanks

 

[Caaardiff]

Utter genius - an imposed contract. Even assuming firstly that was done and secondly that your assertion that there are already sufficient hours contracted is actually true (and just about every industry insider seems to believe that is utter bunkum) then your wonderful contract would poison the well on goodwill for decades to come. Good luck with a permanent work to rule.....

I forgot to say that the railway has traditionally, and probably rightly, prioritised work travel - mainly in the week - over leisure travel (mainly at the weekend) - hence when planned engineering work is generally done. You apparently want, for reasons you don't appear to care to explain, to change that. Don't exactly hold your breath!

The railway should be a 24/7 industry and should be run for the passengers.
Im not sure if its even done but historic contracts should be phased out over time, with any new starters having Sunday as part of their week. They know no different and sign up to new ways of working. Old contracts should remain unless those on them agree to Sundays voluntarily. It will at least bridge the gap for some TOCs. And for some people working a Sunday works for them.

Train travel has changed since covid, leisure travel for many TOCs is well up since covid. TFW is busiests at weekends now with commuting travel still not completely recovered.

 

[dk1]

The railway should be a 24/7 industry and should be run for the passengers.
Im not sure if its even done but historic contracts should be phased out over time, with any new starters having Sunday as part of their week. They know no different and sign up to new ways of working. Old contracts should remain unless those on them agree to Sundays voluntarily. It will at least bridge the gap for some TOCs. And for some people working a Sunday works for them.

Train travel has changed since covid, leisure travel for many TOCs is well up since covid. TFW is busiests at weekends now with commuting travel still not completely recovered.

That’s not going to be acceptable to Unions or staff without crossing the palms with very lucrative silver.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not a new phenomenon. I view Sundays as a “do not attempt to travel” day by default on GWR. There’s no visible evidence of them attempting to fix this problem that I’ve come across, it’s a pretty pathetic state of affairs for a major TOC.

Nor any evidence of the previous Passenger in Chief even acknowledging there was an issue that needed fixing

 

[Harpo]

What are GWR’s ‘rules’ on Sunday turns. Is it a hard and fast declare yourself available and then be obliged to do whatever hours/tines/job is lobbed at you? Or is there some old-school ‘I could do x or y hours/times’ latitude?

 

[Caaardiff]

That’s not going to be acceptable to Unions or staff without crossing the palms with very lucrative silver.

Exactly. So where's the compromise?
Under that deal, no-one currently under contract is losing out, except maybe some taking overtime.

 

[irish_rail]

I've mentioned before, but the traincrew diagrams on a sunday don't help. For example , Plymouth HSS drivers are amongst the most versatile in the whole TOC route and traction wise, and yet on Sundays, almost all of our jobs are just ferrying to and from the depot. I think there is just the one London turn. Its a waste of resources, and plenty of drivers just chuck the Sunday in, as they know they will be messed about no end on a Laira ferrying shift.

 

[Snow1964]

Not a new phenomenon. I view Sundays as a “do not attempt to travel” day by default on GWR. There’s no visible evidence of them attempting to fix this problem that I’ve come across, it’s a pretty pathetic state of affairs for a major TOC.

What I have never seen explained is how they signed up to the DfT Business commitments (first and last trains and frequencies including Sunday), but having done so weren't obliged to staff the trains they agreed to run. Either shouldn't have agreed (but did as were greedy), or should have had recruitment and training to get sufficient staff numbers (and have had years to do so since franchise /management contract started)

Must be very embarrassing working in HR for GWR, main job is provide sufficient trained humans to meet DfT train service commitments. .... Failed main task.

 

[Falcon1200]

I've already stated how to find the information.

As it was you who made the sweeping assertion that;

The passenger railway is carrying massive amounts of fresh air around on weekdays.

I would say it is really up to you to back that up! All I can add that is that it is simply not my experience.

 

[Clarence Yard]

What I have never seen explained is how they signed up to the DfT Business commitments (first and last trains and frequencies including Sunday), but having done so weren't obliged to staff the trains they agreed to run. Either shouldn't have agreed (but did as were greedy), or should have had recruitment and training to get sufficient staff numbers (and have had years to do so since franchise /management contract started)

Must be very embarrassing working in HR for GWR, main job is provide sufficient trained humans to meet DfT train service commitments. .... Failed main task.

It doesn’t work like that.

In a NRC you sign up to the DfT business plan but the DfT tell you how many staff you can employ and the staff budget.

So if you ask for more, to deliver that plan, and don’t get it, it isn’t the TOC’s fault. HR still happy. You still get your fees, or rather your owning group does.

 

[43066]

The railway should be a 24/7 industry and should be run for the passengers.

It is a 24/7 industry if you count freight and engineering, but most passengers don’t want to travel at 0300; hence the passenger side has evolved to focus around demand which is predominantly daytime commuting, leisure and business travel.

It has also been confirmed on here that, even post covid, Sunday mornings see the least demand, weekday “peaks” are still the busiest. Hence you’d expect staff contractual arrangements and rostering to continue to reflect that.

Im not sure if its even done but historic contracts should be phased out over time, with any new starters having Sunday as part of their week.

That is a solution acceptable to both unions, and it has been implemented at some operators. Yet, as we have seen on the thread discussing Northern conductors, the OLR (with the DfT behind them) appear still to be trying to staff Sundays via enforced overtime, so it’s by no means clear that the will is there at a government level to bring Sundays inside the week across the board. The situation is therefore unlikely to be different at GWR.

 

[forestboy003]

I’m a HSS Driver for GWR
i haven’t worked a Sunday for months. It’s a complete mess! So why volunteer for overtime when you know it’s going to be chaos.

Some Drivers are not volunteering for overtime as they are going to break 100k for the tax year and hence end up paying more tax as you loose your personal allowance.

enhanced payment for rest day working was agreed a few months ago, so why work a Sunday when you can pick up a RDW during the week for more money and enjoy Sunday at home with the family.

i agree with others that GWR should be running a reduced service so at least passengers can have some confidence that their train is going to run.

there are a lot of Drivers that are so fed up with the delays, the current work content, attitude of management towards Drivers, that they just want to be at work more than they have to be. It’s not a nice place to work at and I can’t wait to be able to afford to retire……..

 

[dk1]

I’m a HSS Driver for GWR
i haven’t worked a Sunday for months. It’s a complete mess! So why volunteer for overtime when you know it’s going to be chaos.

Some Drivers are not volunteering for overtime as they are going to break 100k for the tax year and hence end up paying more tax as you loose your personal allowance.

enhanced payment for rest day working was agreed a few months ago, so why work a Sunday when you can pick up a RDW during the week for more money and enjoy Sunday at home with the family.

i agree with others that GWR should be running a reduced service so at least passengers can have some confidence that their train is going to run.

there are a lot of Drivers that are so fed up with the delays, the current work content, attitude of management towards Drivers, that they just want to be at work more than they have to be. It’s not a nice place to work at and I can’t wait to be able to afford to retire……..

Thank you for explaining.

 

[jayah]

Utter genius - an imposed contract.

23% isn't likely to be on the table even from Labour.

Even assuming firstly that was done and secondly that your assertion that there are already sufficient hours contracted is actually true (and just about every industry insider seems to believe that is utter bunkum)

I didn't say it was.

Even if you added 2hrs to the rather light 35hr/wk, it can only be done by serious pruning of little used services on weekdays and moving the hours worked to where they are needed.

Many commentators try to pretend these services don't exist, but they aren't looking very hard.

then your wonderful contract would poison the well on goodwill for decades to come. Good luck with a permanent work to rule.....

There is no goodwill. That is why the past 2 years happened. Zero goodwill needs to be a planning assumption.

I forgot to say that the railway has traditionally, and probably rightly, prioritised work travel - mainly in the week - over leisure travel (mainly at the weekend) - hence when planned engineering work is generally done. You apparently want, for reasons you don't appear to care to explain, to change that. Don't exactly hold your breath!

It is quite simple really.

You run trains on Sundays with 300, 600 people each, that are currently being cancelled week after week, rather than trains with 50 or fewer, often running a few minutes apart, before 6am and after 10pm.

The majority of weekday trains are in the middle of the day, or the evening and are not taking people to or from work / school.

You say the railway priortises travel to work. The railway doesn't prioritise anything much, most of what the railway does is a simple accident of history that can't be justified, be that the fares or the timetable.

If travel to work demand, no matter how thin, is a somehow the priority, then the first train of the day from Leeds to Birmingham would be 5am not 6am, as it is from Manchester. The first train from Birmingham to Bristol Parkway would be over 2hr earlier than it is today, which it is already is if you happen to work in Cardiff.

And why doesn't every station 75 miles from London have overnight services to London on Monday nights, like Peterborough and Milton Keynes do?

Stansted and Heathrow Airport don't have overnight trains, but thousands of people start their shift before the first trains arrive.

 

[Wolfie]

23% isn't likely to be on the table even from Labour.

I didn't say it was.

Even if you added 2hrs to the rather light 35hr/wk, it can only be done by serious pruning of little used services on weekdays and moving the hours worked to where they are needed.

Many commentators try to pretend these services don't exist, but they aren't looking very hard.

There is no goodwill. That is why the past 2 years happened. Zero goodwill needs to be a planning assumption.

It is quite simple really.

You run trains on Sundays with 300, 600 people each, that are currently being cancelled week after week, rather than trains with 50 or fewer, often running a few minutes apart, before 6am and after 10pm.

The majority of weekday trains are in the middle of the day, or the evening and are not taking people to or from work / school.

You say the railway priortises travel to work. The railway doesn't prioritise anything much, most of what the railway does is a simple accident of history that can't be justified, be that the fares or the timetable.

If travel to work demand, no matter how thin, is a somehow the priority, then the first train of the day from Leeds to Birmingham would be 5am not 6am, as it is from Manchester. The first train from Birmingham to Bristol Parkway would be over 2hr earlier than it is today, which it is already is if you happen to work in Cardiff.

And why doesn't every station 75 miles from London have overnight services to London on Monday nights, like Peterborough and Milton Keynes do?

Stansted and Heathrow Airport don't have overnight trains, but thousands of people start their shift before the first trains arrive.

Sounds rather too much like "wah wah some places have it better than where l live and how dare you ask me to produce evidence for my assertions" lol......

 

[Horizon22]

23% isn't likely to be on the table even from Labour.

I didn't say it was.

Even if you added 2hrs to the rather light 35hr/wk, it can only be done by serious pruning of little used services on weekdays and moving the hours worked to where they are needed.

Okay let’s say there’s no money for 7-day working week.

But if overtime rates have crashed over the last 2-3 years and it is completely voluntary then a) there has to be a higher incentive b) accept the level of cancellations or c) change the way Sunday is resourced through lower supply (e.g. emergency timetables).

If the resourcing is not there, really there are few options and that’s the crux of the matter.

Many commentators try to pretend these services don't exist, but they aren't looking very hard.

There is no goodwill. That is why the past 2 years happened. Zero goodwill needs to be a planning assumption.

It is quite simple really.

You run trains on Sundays with 300, 600 people each, that are currently being cancelled week after week, rather than trains with 50 or fewer, often running a few minutes apart, before 6am and after 10pm.

The majority of weekday trains are in the middle of the day, or the evening and are not taking people to or from work / school.

You say the railway priortises travel to work. The railway doesn't prioritise anything much, most of what the railway does is a simple accident of history that can't be justified, be that the fares or the timetable.

If travel to work demand, no matter how thin, is a somehow the priority, then the first train of the day from Leeds to Birmingham would be 5am not 6am, as it is from Manchester. The first train from Birmingham to Bristol Parkway would be over 2hr earlier than it is today, which it is already is if you happen to work in Cardiff.

And why doesn't every station 75 miles from London have overnight services to London on Monday nights, like Peterborough and Milton Keynes do?

Stansted and Heathrow Airport don't have overnight trains, but thousands of people start their shift before the first trains arrive.

You’ve contradicted yourself multiple times in just a few paragraphs! You said we should have later start up of services - despite the fact shift workers rely on first trains - but then said there should be overnight services too! It’s a bit confused.

Also night shifts into early shifts tend to handover around 0600 and onwards (not universal of course) so running purely overnight would really be waste of resources something that you want to somehow resolve.

This completely negates any mention of engineering windows.

 

[43066]

23% isn't likely to be on the table even from Labour.

I didn't say it was.

Even if you added 2hrs to the rather light 35hr/wk, it can only be done by serious pruning of little used services on weekdays and moving the hours worked to where they are needed.

Many commentators try to pretend these services don't exist, but they aren't looking very hard.

There is no goodwill. That is why the past 2 years happened. Zero goodwill needs to be a planning assumption.

It is quite simple really.

You run trains on Sundays with 300, 600 people each, that are currently being cancelled week after week, rather than trains with 50 or fewer, often running a few minutes apart, before 6am and after 10pm.

The majority of weekday trains are in the middle of the day, or the evening and are not taking people to or from work / school.

You say the railway priortises travel to work. The railway doesn't prioritise anything much, most of what the railway does is a simple accident of history that can't be justified, be that the fares or the timetable.

If travel to work demand, no matter how thin, is a somehow the priority, then the first train of the day from Leeds to Birmingham would be 5am not 6am, as it is from Manchester. The first train from Birmingham to Bristol Parkway would be over 2hr earlier than it is today, which it is already is if you happen to work in Cardiff.

And why doesn't every station 75 miles from London have overnight services to London on Monday nights, like Peterborough and Milton Keynes do?

Stansted and Heathrow Airport don't have overnight trains, but thousands of people start their shift before the first trains arrive.

So your solution to the current service issues is to cut the timetable further, making it even less usable for passengers. That will do wonders for the bottom line - I don’t think!

You also appear to be suggesting a further declaration of war on staff, despite the recent abject failure of that strategy (and let me assure you the last two years would have been a *lot* worse had there been no goodwill on the vast majority of days when action wasn’t taking place) while simultaneously lamenting the lack of 24/7 services at extreme times of the day.

And why doesn't every station 75 miles from London have overnight services to London on Monday nights, like Peterborough and Milton Keynes do?

Just to reiterate: you’re asking why every station within a 75 mile radius of London doesn’t have a 24/7 service, while simultaneously complaining about the cost of running the railway?!

A most bizarre and contradictory posting!

 

[43096]

Stansted and Heathrow Airport don't have overnight trains, but thousands of people start their shift before the first trains arrive.

Stansted may not have an overnight service, but first service from London arrives at 0430, which isn't far off.

Heathrow's service is poor for those working at the airport for first flights in the morning - first T5 arrival is after 5am. It should be all night and isn't, which is frankly diabolical for an airport of global importance.

 

[jayah]

Sounds rather too much like "wah wah some places have it better than where l live and how dare you ask me to produce evidence for my assertions" lol......

I have provided numerous examples from different parts of the country. The provision is clearly not matched to demand, not on Sundays, not at 5am on Fridays nor 3am on Tuesday.

Weekday off peak timetables have become very bloated over the past 20 years, and to avoid even more cost providing a Sunday service, the pruning shears need to be used to put supply and demand in the same place.

Stansted may not have an overnight service, but first service from London arrives at 0430, which isn't far off.

Heathrow's service is poor for those working at the airport for first flights in the morning - first T5 arrival is after 5am. It should be all night and isn't, which is frankly diabolical for an airport of global importance.

The first Stansted Express is too late for many workers and the evening service ends too early for the last flight arrivals.

It is not a demand led timetable, nor a timetable that is prioritising people getting to work.

But via some quirk of history, the renowned 24hr city of Peterborough has the overnight service Heathrow Airport and Stansted can only dream of!

 

[weeklycommuter]

DfT have consented to service reductions at other operators to reflect resourcing issues but are conspicuous by their absence here. Maybe the new SoS will actually concentrate on policy rather than dabbling and set direction for the industry over a 7 day railway even if its going to take years to realsie it.

The new Transport Secretary is the MP for Swindon South so she must surely be aware of the problems with GWR.

It's one thing TFW have got right. Drivers now have Sundays as part of the working week and TFW see's very few cancellations due to resource availability lately. Sunday is now one of the busiest days for travel on TFW's network and i'm sure that is the same across the country.
Peoples travel habits have changed and TOC's need to grasp that and deal with it. I wonder how much revenue is lost from cancellations and refunds?

GWR should do the same as TFW and make Sundays part of the working week. Their routes overlap so the contrast must be obvious.

 

[Caaardiff]

GWR should do the same as TFW and make Sundays part of the working week. Their routes overlap so the contrast must be obvious.

It is when a cancelled IET load of passengers is trying to get on a 2 or 3 car TFW train.