GWR Sunday Cancellations - crew availability - why?

[officewalla]

Surely the easiest solution is for new starters to have Sundays included in the working week or Committed, with existing staff staying as it is.

Committed is not the answer. Sunday @time x1.25 minimum 6hrs 45 payment versus RDW @timex1.5 with 9hrs 30 minimum payment. Guess which wins when there is a modicum of choice. Easy enough to go sick on Sunday but well enough for RDW on Monday or Tuesday.

 

[Caaardiff]

‘Archaic working practice’ might be better replaced by ‘exploitative employment practice’.

The first, points towards the workforce. The latter explains the real position, employers trying to push too few people to do overtime to cover the shortfall, because it’s cheaper for the employer.

Not really. The railway is now a 7 day a week service. The contracts aren't. Times have changed and the industry hasn't kept up.
These days, many people don't mind working shifts, including Sundays, provided the time off is equal to normal working patterns. The whole thing about Sunday overtime is that train crew would have to sacrifice their day off, which quite rightly many no longer want to do.
But in an industry that is tax payer funded, there's got to be a balance of value for money and a reliable 7 day a week service.

TFW had a huge pay rise to facilitate Sunday working. The service is much more reliable on Sundays but the taxpayer has had to fund the cost. Many other industries don't have that luxury.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not really. The railway is now a 7 day a week service. The contracts aren't. Times have changed and the industry hasn't kept up.
These days, many people don't mind working shifts, including Sundays, provided the time off is equal to normal working patterns. The whole thing about Sunday overtime is that train crew would have to sacrifice their day off, which quite rightly many no longer want to do.
But in an industry that is tax payer funded, there's got to be a balance of value for money and a reliable 7 day a week service.

TFW had a huge pay rise to facilitate Sunday working. The service is much more reliable on Sundays but the taxpayer has had to fund the cost. Many other industries don't have that luxury.

The thing is SWT put Sundays in the working week over 20 years ago. Does that mean that Stagecoach had special insight that others didn't into what would happen the future if they didn't do so, or is it simply that it was in the "too difficult" category for most TOCs?

 

[43066]

Not really. The railway is now a 7 day a week service. The contracts aren't. Times have changed and the industry hasn't kept up.

Which bit of the post you quoted are you referring to when you say “not really”? It’s accurately describing what is happening - too few staff and reliance on overtime because it’s cheaper. The fact contracts are as they are hasn’t happened by accident; it was a conscious decision to recruit on that basis.

TFW had a huge pay rise to facilitate Sunday working. The service is much more reliable on Sundays but the taxpayer has had to fund the cost. Many other industries don't have that luxury.

Well that’s what will need to happen elsewhere if Sundays are to be brought into the working week. There doesn’t seem to be much appetite for that, though.

 

[Krokodil]

The only thing making it not easy is the unions.

Nonsense. Bringing Sundays inside costs money. It's the Treasury therefore who you need to convince to fund it.

The suggestion of any new contracts having Sundays should be a given, as well as current staff having the option to voluntarily change.

If you bring Sundays inside without first recruiting extra staff (up to 16% extra, which can't be done overnight) you will just get a load of cancellations on weekdays instead.

From the general public view, Drivers got a decent payrise recently

They accepted a real terms pay cut.

 

[74A]

GWR drivers have committed Sundays. However this does not include drivers who worked for the old intercity (HSS) side. No new drivers have been recruited under the old HSS terms and conditions for quite a few years now.

There are still a lot of HSS drivers at Paddington, Bristol and Swansea. They are slowly being reduced as they retire or move. However it is a slow process.

Really the recent problems are due to a new RDW agreement which pays drivers more for a rest day than a Sunday. So a HSS driver who wants to work a days overtime will naturally work a rest day rather than a Sunday. So GWR have basically shot themselves in the foot !

If they manage to get to sufficient drivers to not need to have RDW then things will improve. Quite a lot of drivers have been recruited recently but quite a lot have left/retired.

 

[Towers]

A couple of points; firstly, contracts for new starters are required which include Sunday as a normal working day, this is basic common sense stuff. It matters not what the unions may or may not think about this, because no current staff members are going to take industrial action over colleagues who haven’t yet even joined the industry, so the DfT just need to get on with it and get it done. Get that in place and then at least you have some sort of solid bedrock for the future. The turnover within the guards grade can be pretty high, so it may well begin to have a positive impact sooner than some might think.

Secondly, it’s important to consider that staffing levels can play a part here as well, as the SWR disruption shows; it isn’t all about existing crew deciding they don’t want to work. Contracts are irrelevant if a certain TOC or depot has a lot of vacancies to fill, inevitably that means work is going uncovered. It also means that existing staff are likely to be working a higher degree of overtime all through the week to cover the outstanding work, which again means that Sundays are a less popular day for doing some extra.

 

[Caaardiff]

Which bit of the post you quoted are you referring to when you say “not really”?

That it's not exploitative, that the process and setup is archaic in comparison to how the railway needs to adapt and progress.

Well that’s what will need to happen elsewhere if Sundays are to be brought into the working week. There doesn’t seem to be much appetite for that, though.

It doesn't mean it's right. In modern times Sunday for many is just another normal weekend day, like Saturday.

Nonsense. Bringing Sundays inside costs money. It's the Treasury therefore who you need to convince to fund it.

It shouldn't cost as much as it is though. IIRC TFW's pay increase was based on an average of overtime taken previously, at overtime rate, to become a normal day. So if a Driver never did overtime, they got the pay rise anyway. How does that make sense? If a Driver signs up to be a Driver, they sign up for the basic wage. Overtime is a bonus, a luxury.

If you bring Sundays inside without first recruiting extra staff (up to 16% extra, which can't be done overnight) you will just get a load of cancellations on weekdays instead.

A bit of short term pain, or the timetable can be adjusted throughout the week rather than just a Sunday. Overtime would also be more attractive on weekdays. It's not so cut a dry, it would have to be done with a mix of ideas.

 

[Towers]

It shouldn't cost as much as it is though. IIRC TFW's pay increase was based on an average of overtime taken previously, at overtime rate, to become a normal day. So if a Driver never did overtime, they got the pay rise anyway. How does that make sense? If a Driver signs up to be a Driver, they sign up for the basic wage. Overtime is a bonus, a luxury.

Except that at some TOCs drivers are required to work overtime as Sundays, which is the very opposite of your point!

 

[whoosh]

The only thing making it not easy is the unions.
The suggestion of any new contracts having Sundays should be a given, as well as current staff having the option to voluntarily change. It may suit some people to have Sundays in their week while maintaining their normal work pattern.
No-one is losing out then.

From the general public view, Drivers got a decent payrise recently but TOCs seemed to have missed a trick in adding conditions to those payrises to help in some way with overtime coverage. It's not done any favours in the perception of how the general public sees it, vs how people actually working on the railway sees it as a well deserved rise.

The Government at the time refused talks to take place for an entire year. And then dragged out the national dispute for a further year. Therefore opportunity to properly discuss and negotiate productivity changes was squandered. The TOCs did not miss a trick - they didn't have a say in it. South Eastern had even had productivity discussions in late 2021 for 2022's pay rise, before being told they couldn't have pay talks by the Government.

It shouldn't cost as much as it is though. IIRC TFW's pay increase was based on an average of overtime taken previously, at overtime rate, to become a normal day. So if a Driver never did overtime, they got the pay rise anyway. How does that make sense? If a Driver signs up to be a Driver, they sign up for the basic wage. Overtime is a bonus, a luxury.

But it was changing a contract where having trains worked on a Sunday was a bonus/luxury. If that bonus/luxury is normalised, then the new rate of pay should reflect that.

 

[Caaardiff]

Except that at some TOCs drivers are required to work overtime as Sundays, which is the very opposite of your point!

But they sign up knowing that they would need to work that, so it's not the opposite of my point.

But it was changing a contract where having trains worked on a Sunday was a bonus/luxury. If that bonus/luxury is normalised, then the new rate of pay should reflect that.

I agree, there should be some pay increase for the Sundays, but not to the levels of pay increases being seen to get it in place.

 

[whoosh]

I agree, there should be some pay increase for the Sundays, but not to the levels of pay increases being seen to get it in place.

If you are referring to TfW, then the multi-year paydeal they had was a package, with several items of productivity. It wasn't just Sundays being placed in the working week.

 

[43066]

That it's not exploitative, that the process and setup is archaic in comparison to how the railway needs to adapt and progress.

Enforced overtime is not the best solution. Various TOCs have already brought Sundays inside the week, so the industry can “adapt and progress” via negotiation.

It doesn't mean it's right. In modern times Sunday for many is just another normal weekend day, like Saturday.

What isn’t right? For many it isn’t a normal working day. If staff have been recruited on that basis, and the employer wants to change it, they will need to do so in a way that’s acceptable to the union side - hence the need for negotiation. It’s pretty clear that committed Sundays aren’t going to be seen as acceptable where they aren’t already in place.

But they sign up knowing that they would need to work that, so it's not the opposite of my point.

At other TOCs they have signed up knowing they won’t need to work Sundays.

I agree, there should be some pay increase for the Sundays, but not to the levels of pay increases being seen to get it in place.

That isn’t for you to determine. You also don’t speak for the entire general public.

 

[Krokodil]

It shouldn't cost as much as it is though.

If you are increasing staffing complements by 16% (plus whatever is needed to reduce reliance on RDW during the week) then that will cost a decent wedge and take years. Training a new driver is expensive.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

The only thing making it not easy is the unions.

That’s not true. At no point has any company come forward with a plan to resolve the situation, since TfW did.

 

[12LDA28C]

The only thing making it not easy is the unions.
The suggestion of any new contracts having Sundays should be a given, as well as current staff having the option to voluntarily change. It may suit some people to have Sundays in their week while maintaining their normal work pattern.
No-one is losing out then.

From the general public view, Drivers got a decent payrise recently but TOCs seemed to have missed a trick in adding conditions to those payrises to help in some way with overtime coverage. It's not done any favours in the perception of how the general public sees it, vs how people actually working on the railway sees it as a well deserved rise.

Not so. The Unions are in favour of having Sundays in the working week. It's the TOCs and/or the DfT who don't want to pay for the uplift in staff required to facilitate this.

Not really. The railway is now a 7 day a week service. The contracts aren't. Times have changed and the industry hasn't kept up.
These days, many people don't mind working shifts, including Sundays, provided the time off is equal to normal working patterns. The whole thing about Sunday overtime is that train crew would have to sacrifice their day off, which quite rightly many no longer want to do.
But in an industry that is tax payer funded, there's got to be a balance of value for money and a reliable 7 day a week service.

TFW had a huge pay rise to facilitate Sunday working. The service is much more reliable on Sundays but the taxpayer has had to fund the cost. Many other industries don't have that luxury.

That doesn't align with drivers that I speak to who are generally in favour of having Sundays in the working week which will of course mean they get another day off in the week to compensate, or they would have to apply for a day's leave if they still want their Sunday off.

 

[officewalla]

Having Sunday in the working week is all about the cost. For Sundays to be included the first thing needed will be an uplift in staff numbers. I don't know the figures but in a previous life, there were 1.2 people for every actual job. (7 days a week, 6-12 months away from home etc... you get the picture). Secondly, another day on the books is another day of NI and other capitation costs being added to treh staff costs. Currently with committed Sundays, the only cost is that of overtime of which HMRC take 42%. No NI, no pension contributions or anything else that would be included in the capitation rate. You can bet your mortgage that a day on contract is more expensive than a day on overtime. At my TOC committed Sundays pay at least £5.5k but most sit at around £6.5-7k per year. I would suggest that £7k per pa would be the minimum that might be acceptable to bring Sundays fully in and expect it to be closer to £10k once negotiations are complete. Then add the additional company costs of NI, pension etc that number approaches £15k per driver quite quickly. Now we can all see why some TOCs don't want to change and why the DfT won't release the funding. The numbers would be c£180million across the country against the current overtime bill of £100million or less. Small numbers in the context of a national economy but still cash that would need to be found from somewhere. And this is before the uplift to drivers required which would add another £140million or so for 2000 extra drivers.

 

[Krokodil]

If the Sunday service were equal to the weekday service then the staffing uplift would need to be 16.7% - your staff used to cover six days but now need to cover seven. In practice the uplift could be less if the Sunday service is much quieter, but not by much as economies of scale mean that the busier weekday service is staffed more efficiently. To avoid reliance on rest day work as well, you probably should round that uplift to at least 20%. While doing all of this extra training you need to keep replacing anyone who leaves or retires as well - and there is an entire generation requesting pension estimates at the moment. A recent issue of Modern Railways did have a feature on the logistics of training this many staff.

It took TfW several years to train enough drivers to bring Sundays inside.

 

[Tw99]

It's certainly hard to see any way out of this mess when nobody is apparently willing to compromise on anything.

If Sunday services remain as bad as they seem to be, and thus driving passengers away to other modes of transport, that's only going to have a knock-on effect into overall passenger numbers for the rest of the week. For example, people going away for a weekend won't be using the train either way if they can't rely on the return trip on Sunday being predictable.

With the reduction in weekday travel since 2020, the railway industry needs to take more of the leisure travel market if it's going to have a healthy future, not simply throw it away due to intransigence (whether that's from the Government, DfT, employers, unions, staff or more likely all them).

 

[Caaardiff]

It's certainly hard to see any way out of this mess when nobody is apparently willing to compromise on anything.

If Sunday services remain as bad as they seem to be, and thus driving passengers away to other modes of transport, that's only going to have a knock-on effect into overall passenger numbers for the rest of the week. For example, people going away for a weekend won't be using the train either way if they can't rely on the return trip on Sunday being predictable.

With the reduction in weekday travel since 2020, the railway industry needs to take more of the leisure travel market if it's going to have a healthy future, not simply throw it away due to intransigence (whether that's from the Government, DfT, employers, unions, staff or more likely all them).

Exactly this. What is the compromise, from both sides?

Not so. The Unions are in favour of having Sundays in the working week. It's the TOCs and/or the DfT who don't want to pay for the uplift in staff required to facilitate this.

I do agree here, but the Unions won't allow it without a substantial payrise. So TOC's not only need to recruit more staff to cover it all, they also have to provide the pay rises to current staff.

That doesn't align with drivers that I speak to who are generally in favour of having Sundays in the working week which will of course mean they get another day off in the week to compensate, or they would have to apply for a day's leave if they still want their Sunday off.

This is relevant to the current overtime arrangements, and quite rightly so. But the issue here is Train crew want more to work Sundays, regardless of if there will be the same number of days off, just at different part of the week. Many industries across the world pay for unsociable hours or weekend working, but not the kind of uplift that is expected if doing it on the railway.

 

[JonathanH]

Many industries across the world pay for unsociable hours or weekend working, but not the kind of uplift that is expected if doing it on the railway.

The 'other side' of that is that I expect consumers don't want to pay the actual market rate for the railway to run on a Sunday either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 'other side' of that is that I expect consumers don't want to pay the actual market rate for the railway to run on a Sunday either.

Consumers don't pay the actual market rate for any of the railway. It is heavily subsidised as a public good.

 

[43066]

Exactly this. What is the compromise, from both sides?

The compromise from the union side is agreeing to change the terms in the first place. You seem very keen to blame the unions for resisting a change detrimental to their members (ie doing their job), while ignoring that it’s the employers moving the goal posts.

I do agree here, but the Unions won't allow it without a substantial payrise. So TOC's not only need to recruit more staff to cover it all, they also have to provide the pay rises to current staff.

Indeed, and the unions have agreed to it at various operators in return for a mutually agreeable pay rise.

Many industries across the world pay for unsociable hours or weekend working, but not the kind of uplift that is expected if doing it on the railway.

Not sure this is true, and in any case why is it relevant? If it isn’t brought into the week we will likely continue as we are, and I suspect the cost of cancellations/delay repay etc. far outweigh the cost of a pay rise to bring Sundays into the week. That isn’t a good outcome for either taxpayers or passengers.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Consumers don't pay the actual market rate for any of the railway. It is heavily subsidised as a public good.

I agree, and in general we shouldn't let the public off the hook here. The government doesn't want to pump any more money into rail, and here the government is representing public opinion.

 

[43066]

I agree, and in general we shouldn't let the public off the hook here. The government doesn't want to pump any more money into rail, and here the government is representing public opinion.

I’m not sure that follows, actually.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I’m not sure that follows, actually.

I'm not sure it follows, but there is a general pattern of the public being wilfully ignorant of the costs of providing certain services. (You see this about the NHS too.)

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think the public are unable to form a realistic view when there is no quantification of the actual cost vs benefit. All the ‘facts’ they are presented with are filtered through either a newspaper/media outlet, a politician or a union. I suspect if someone made an unbiased connection between the cost of bringing Sundays inside the working week for traincrew and the resultant percentage increase in fares (with an assumption of static industry funding from government) - only then could you actually reliably say what the public as a whole thinks.

The public is cynical about both politicians and industry at the moment (the fact they swallow what is in their preferred bit of the media is a wider cultural social issue of today) because they are currently being told ”Fares are X, the railway is advertising Y“ but actual performance is way, WAY lower than what Y is promising. So they feel ripped off by the railway and lied to by politicians.

 

[Horizon22]

Really the recent problems are due to a new RDW agreement which pays drivers more for a rest day than a Sunday. So a HSS driver who wants to work a days overtime will naturally work a rest day rather than a Sunday. So GWR have basically shot themselves in the foot !

I imagine this is really the DfT who have shot GWR's foot by not sanctioning the spending on a higher Sunday rate.

But ultimately until it's in the working week everywhere this won't be resolved. You can do it by spending extra money and recruiting more drivers for the roster (pricier short-term, but quicker) or slowly getting new drivers on new contractors and adapting diagrams accordingly and splitting links (cheaper, but much slower).

 

[43066]

I'm not sure it follows, but there is a general pattern of the public being wilfully ignorant of the costs of providing certain services. (You see this about the NHS too.)

Very true!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I imagine this is really the DfT who have shot GWR's foot by not sanctioning the spending on a higher Sunday rate.

But ultimately until it's in the working week everywhere this won't be resolved. You can do it by spending extra money and recruiting more drivers for the roster (pricier short-term, but quicker) or slowly getting new drivers on new contractors and adapting diagrams accordingly and splitting links (cheaper, but much slower).

This. And arguably, on the second paragraph, they should be doing both.

Unfortunately we have a government who want to ‘move fast and fix things’ but also seemingly aren’t prepared to spend any money doing it. This approach will only make the railway worse imo.

Edit: They also don’t seem prepared to even raise money so they can spend money to do it.