GWR timetable recast 2018?

[Wilts Wanderer]

How could you use such a service, as there would be no connections to/from Exeter at Westbury, other than the semi-fasts, which will be calling at Bedwyn and Hungerford anyway?

No they won't - semi fasts call at Newbury, Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary only.

 

[jimm]

Even so, if they did extend Bedwyn services to Westbury, there would still likely be some very long waits for an Exeter semi-fast to turn up when they will only be running every couple of hours. Change at Newbury and double back will remain the principle option.

 

[nw1]

The Newbury stoppers from Reading will be 387s

Would it make sense to actually run the Newbury terminators from Paddington? Maybe have one of the two Paddington-Didcot services run to Newbury instead, with the 2nd Didcot train a Reading-Didcot "shuttle"? That way the smaller stations on this line would get a through service to London and you get new links from Newbury to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes and Ealing (IIRC they were the stops, along with Twyford)

Also wondering whether a better pattern would have been to run alternate Bedwyns to Exeter and keep the Castle Cary stops in the Plymouth services as they are now, from the POV of connectivity - rather than having a separate Exeter service unrelated to the Bedwyns.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it make sense to actually run the Newbury terminators from Paddington? Maybe have one of the two Paddington-Didcot services run to Newbury instead, with the 2nd Didcot train a Reading-Didcot "shuttle"? That way the smaller stations on this line would get a through service to London and you get new links from Newbury to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes and Ealing (IIRC they were the stops, along with Twyford)
.

I suspect a lot depends on the bigger picture. I’d be assuming that the present Didcot service is a temporary solution, eventually they’ll be Oxford services. Do they still justify 2tph? Then there’s the question of how stoppers through Reading are affected by Crossrail. Lastly, if they want to terminate services at Reading from the west, is it better to use P1 or P2 which don’t impact much on the rest of the station operations, or block a through platform on the relief side for a few minutes?

 

[cle]

How frequent will the Newbury stoppers be?

I guess what I'm not sure about is what will arrive at Newbury in a given hour - 1tph slow Reading, 1tph London-Bedwyn and 1tp2h London-Exeter? Trying to see the full benefits of the wires here, versus other branches - or at least continuing to to Bedwyn.

 

[TheWalrus]

I don't know that Tiverton Parkway is a strange omission - it will have an hourly London service and presumably GWR has plenty of evidence from ticket sales as to the overall level of demand to/from Reading and London and thinks it doesn't justify more than an hourly call. Pathing may also put the semi-fasts close behind or just ahead of an XC service or GWR Bristol-Devon/Cornwall train (both running in a regular hourly path, as opposed to every couple of hours) as well, in which case the odds of picking up/putting down any local traffic would probably be limited.



I think there will be some 387 extras in the peaks between Paddington and Newbury as well as the Bedwyn IETs, plus 387s on the Reading-Newbury stoppers. I gather the number of weekday Newbury-London through services both ways will go up from about 40 now to 50-odd, made up of IETs on Bedwyns and the Exeter semi-fasts, plus some 387s.



It would probably need five 800s, instead of three, to provide an hourly service out to Westbury and I doubt there would be be the day-round demand to justify an hourly London service there, never mind Pewsey.

How could you use such a service, as there would be no connections to/from Exeter at Westbury, other than the semi-fasts, which will be calling at Bedwyn and Hungerford anyway?

The semi-fasts to Exeter are running non-stop Newbury to Pewsey. So if the Bedwyns extended to Westbury I should be able to connect there for an Exeter.

Units should be available during the day to enhance as they’re running peak time services anyway.

 

[TheWalrus]

Would it make sense to actually run the Newbury terminators from Paddington? Maybe have one of the two Paddington-Didcot services run to Newbury instead, with the 2nd Didcot train a Reading-Didcot "shuttle"? That way the smaller stations on this line would get a through service to London and you get new links from Newbury to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes and Ealing (IIRC they were the stops, along with Twyford)

Also wondering whether a better pattern would have been to run alternate Bedwyns to Exeter and keep the Castle Cary stops in the Plymouth services as they are now, from the POV of connectivity - rather than having a separate Exeter service unrelated to the Bedwyns.

I’m thinking the same but the Exeter semi-fasts would need to call at Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn additionally, which will increase journey time around 9-12 minutes?

 

[nw1]

I’m thinking the same but the Exeter semi-fasts would need to call at Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn additionally, which will increase journey time around 9-12 minutes?

Though would that actually matter too much? It would slow down Westbury and Castle Cary times but then the obvious solution there is to keep the stops in the Plymouth services, as they do now. It does seem to be a relatively inefficient service pattern and allowing westward traffic from Hungerford and Bedwyn would be of some benefit too.

They could even just run alternate Bedwyns to Westbury and time them so that they connect at Westbury into Plymouth services. I'm guessing the Bedwyns would leave London shortly after a Plymouth/Penzance, so by the time a Bedwyn which extends to Westbury gets there, the next Plymouth wouldn't be too far behind.

 

[30907]

Though would that actually matter too much? It would slow down Westbury and Castle Cary times but then the obvious solution there is to keep the stops in the Plymouth services, as they do now. It does seem to be a relatively inefficient service pattern and allowing westward traffic from Hungerford and Bedwyn would be of some benefit too.

They could even just run alternate Bedwyns to Westbury and time them so that they connect at Westbury into Plymouth services. I'm guessing the Bedwyns would leave London shortly after a Plymouth/Penzance, so by the time a Bedwyn which extends to Westbury gets there, the next Plymouth wouldn't be too far behind.

So you are proposing either to add 10minutes or so to long distance services, or to run extra mileage? What is the size of the market (I note that there are 3 trains a day each way from Westbury to Hungerford and vv. I wonder how many commuters do the journey?)?

 

[cle]

It did always seem to me that Bedwyn was quite an arbitrary place for the line to end, but that's an NSE thing we can move beyond - and Westbury makes more sense - being a bigger place, space to turn and offering quite a few connections. Indeed, a smarter place for the wires to reach too. Yes it would require more units, but I think worth it.

 

[jyte]

It did always seem to me that Bedwyn was quite an arbitrary place for the line to end, but that's an NSE thing we can move beyond - and Westbury makes more sense - being a bigger place, space to turn and offering quite a few connections. Indeed, a smarter place for the wires to reach too. Yes it would require more units, but I think worth it.

There was some discussion on this when Newbury was announced as the end destination for the wires.

Firstly, Westbury had a beyond terrible BCR. Like 0.3:1.

Secondly the layout's a little inflexible. There was some suggestion of remodelling however.

 

[TheWalrus]

So you are proposing either to add 10minutes or so to long distance services, or to run extra mileage? What is the size of the market (I note that there are 3 trains a day each way from Westbury to Hungerford and vv. I wonder how many commuters do the journey?)?

None as the service has always been very limited with the earliest ever train being around 0921.

 

[30907]

None as the service has always been very limited with the earliest ever train being around 0921.

Currently WSB-HGD is 0600, 0616, 0703 returning between 1730 and 1927.
I agree that there hasnt been a regular service since about 1960 though.

 

[nw1]

So you are proposing either to add 10minutes or so to long distance services, or to run extra mileage? What is the size of the market (I note that there are 3 trains a day each way from Westbury to Hungerford and vv. I wonder how many commuters do the journey?)?

I'm proposing basically keeping things the way they are w.r.t the Plymouth and Penzance services during off peak times, but running some of the Bedwyns on to Westbury (for westward connections) and/or Exeter. I'm not saying this is definitely a good idea, just opening it up as a suggestion which would improve connectivity westwards from West Berkshire without having to introduce an entirely new service out of Paddington.

 

[jimm]

It did always seem to me that Bedwyn was quite an arbitrary place for the line to end, but that's an NSE thing we can move beyond - and Westbury makes more sense - being a bigger place, space to turn and offering quite a few connections. Indeed, a smarter place for the wires to reach too. Yes it would require more units, but I think worth it.

Bedwyn is not that arbitrary - it's the nearest station to Marlborough and in journey time terms to/from London is within what is considered a reasonable regular daily commute.

West of Bedwyn is a sparsely populated area and Westbury on a limited-stop train, never mind one calling everywhere west of Newbury, is shading into the area of what is considered extreme commuting - plus people in Westbury are far more likely to want to travel to Bath and Bristol on a regular basis that they are to go to Reading or London. So what if it's bigger.

All you need to turn a train back to London is a crossover and siding, which Bedwyn already has. A short extension to the siding is all that is needed to accommodate a five-car IET - which, I would suggest, will offer better value for money than footing the bill for at least two more IETs to be allocated to the route all day just to carry around a load of air west of Newbury and especially west of Bedwyn.

 

[TheWalrus]

I believe Marlborough is actually slightly closer to Pewsey than Bedwyn. Some westbound connections would be nice though.

 

[jimm]

Anyone travelling from/to Marlborough to places to the east is rather more likely to use Bedwyn, as they can leave home later/get home earlier, doing the drive in the time the train needs to get from/to Pewsey.

 

[TheWalrus]

Anyone travelling from/to Marlborough to places to the east is rather more likely to use Bedwyn, as they can leave home later/get home earlier, doing the drive in the time the train needs to get from/to Pewsey.

Quite possibly but then Pewsey is served by a few faster services.

Is the Bedwyn IET service running in addition to a 387 Newbury service or instead of?

Anyone travelling from/to Marlborough to places to the east is rather more likely to use Bedwyn, as they can leave home later/get home earlier, doing the drive in the time the train needs to get from/to Pewsey.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In addition to. The Bedwyn IETs equate to the current, well, Bedwyns, and the 387 Newbury stoppers to the, ahem, Newbury stoppers.

 

[jimm]

Quite possibly but then Pewsey is served by a few faster services.

And in the case of Pewsey, the operative word is few as an overall description of the level of services there, compared with the much more frequent service provided at Bedwyn - hence most passengers driving to a station from Marlborough and rest of the surrounding area use Bedwyn.

 

[FenMan]

And in the case of Pewsey, the operative word is few as an overall description of the level of services there, compared with the much more frequent service provided at Bedwyn - hence most passengers driving to a station from Marlborough and rest of the surrounding area use Bedwyn.

Annual rail passenger usage 2016/17

239,000 - Pewsey
121,000 - Bedwyn

 

[jyte]

Annual rail passenger usage 2016/17

239,000 - Pewsey
121,000 - Bedwyn

Isn't Bedwyn served by about a dozen trains a day? That's pretty pathetic.

 

[cle]

Is Marlborough that big a traffic generator? It's sub 10k people. And some will head west - if as above, commuting patterns in the area skew to Bristol/Bath - not really a great option from Bedwyn.

Yes Westbury in isolation may have a low BCR, but this should of course be a rolling thing. That should be a phase of getting to Taunton, which should also be done via Bridgwater inc Weston SM. And then Exeter.

 

[jimm]

Annual rail passenger usage 2016/17

239,000 - Pewsey
121,000 - Bedwyn

There are all sorts of factors behind raw station usage figures - e.g. Hungerford (384,000) is just five miles from Bedwyn, it's then another 9 miles to Pewsey, but that station serves a pretty large area otherwise devoid of stations to the north, south and west (it's 20 miles on to Westbury).

 

[Kite159]

Isn't Bedwyn served by about a dozen trains a day? That's pretty pathetic.

Non-clockface rough hourly service for most of the day, with some additional services at peak times for Bedwyn. But Great Bedwyn itself isn't the largest of villages, IIRC I don't even think it has a large carpark either.

 

[Dai Corner]

Non-clockface rough hourly service for most of the day, with some additional services at peak times for Bedwyn. But Great Bedwyn itself isn't the largest of villages, IIRC I don't even think it has a large carpark either.

Isn't Bedwyn just a convenient place to terminate, the main traffic being from Hungerford as illustrated by the figures quoted above?

 

[TheWalrus]

In addition to. The Bedwyn IETs equate to the current, well, Bedwyns, and the 387 Newbury stoppers to the, ahem, Newbury stoppers.

Sorry I meant will there be an hourly Newbury to Reading stopper, Newbury to Paddington 387 semi-fast and an hourly Bedwyn to Paddington? Or just hourly Bedwyn to Paddington and Newbury to Reading stopper?

 

[Adsy125]

Why not extend the Bedwyns to Frome instead of Westbury (hypothetical I know). It would provide much better connections along the Berks and Hants as well as giving Frome a regular London service for the first time. It's also off the main line and an easy place to turn trains.

On a seperate note I think not running any trains that stop at stations between Reading and Taunton beyond Exeter is a mistake, extending them to provide 2 hourly Paignton services or just extra trains to Plymouth would provide much better connectivity, I know a reasonable number of people who used to use the 8 o clock Westbury to Penzance service to places beyong Exeter, even stopping one fast Penzance there in the mornings and one in the evenings would improve the situation.

 

[jimm]

Sorry I meant will there be an hourly Newbury to Reading stopper, Newbury to Paddington 387 semi-fast and an hourly Bedwyn to Paddington? Or just hourly Bedwyn to Paddington and Newbury to Reading stopper?

Someone inside GWR may know the patterns for London-Newbury/Bedwyn, but as I pointed out back up the thread, the number of through trains per day between Newbury and Paddington will rise from about 40 now to 50+ from January. Probably including some 387s on extra Paddington duties for the peaks.

Why not extend the Bedwyns to Frome instead of Westbury (hypothetical I know). It would provide much better connections along the Berks and Hants as well as giving Frome a regular London service for the first time. It's also off the main line and an easy place to turn trains.

It may be neat and tidy to your mind but, the same as Westbury, would require several more IETs to operate and, bar anecdotes, I have yet to see anyone set out a compelling case for so many extra trains all day west of Newbury/Bedwyn - where are all the passengers to justify it going to come from? Just as in Westbury, if people in Frome were given a choice between lots of London trains or a better service to Bath, Bristol and perhaps Swindon, I reckon the latter destinations would win by a country mile.

On a seperate note I think not running any trains that stop at stations between Reading and Taunton beyond Exeter is a mistake, extending them to provide 2 hourly Paignton services or just extra trains to Plymouth would provide much better connectivity, I know a reasonable number of people who used to use the 8 o clock Westbury to Penzance service to places beyong Exeter, even stopping one fast Penzance there in the mornings and one in the evenings would improve the situation.

People from Plymouth and Cornwall, the overwhelming majority of whom will be traveling to/from Reading and London, think it is a very good idea. I believe the Paignton services are going to be extensions of Exeter semi-fasts anyway. GWR haven't come up with the service pattern without looking long and hard at where people are going to and from.

 

[The Ham]

Someone inside GWR may know the patterns for London-Newbury/Bedwyn, but as I pointed out back up the thread, the number of through trains per day between Newbury and Paddington will rise from about 40 now to 50+ from January. Probably including some 387s on extra Paddington duties for the peaks.



It may be neat and tidy to your mind but, the same as Westbury, would require several more IETs to operate and, bar anecdotes, I have yet to see anyone set out a compelling case for so many extra trains all day west of Newbury/Bedwyn - where are all the passengers to justify it going to come from? Just as in Westbury, if people in Frome were given a choice between lots of London trains or a better service to Bath, Bristol and perhaps Swindon, I reckon the latter destinations would win by a country mile.



People from Plymouth and Cornwall, the overwhelming majority of whom will be traveling to/from Reading and London, think it is a very good idea. I believe the Paignton services are going to be extensions of Exeter semi-fasts anyway. GWR haven't come up with the service pattern without looking long and hard at where people are going to and from.

Quite, even in places that are within an hour of London by train can have 10% of workers traveling far enough to be working in London. As such travel to local towns/cities should be the priority as that's likely to be where most regular travelers wish to go, even if there's significant numbers going to London.