Had to pay contactless when barriers wouldn't accept paper Travelcard

[moogal]

Last weekend I went to visit my sister in London, and as usual I purchased a day travelcard as part of my train ticket from Leighton Buzzard. That evening, I arrived at Walthamstow Central (Overground entrance) and the closed barriers wouldn't accept my travelcard for some reason (I didn't catch the code). There were no staff visible anywhere in the vicinity, and I also couldn't find any sort of help point or way to call for assistance.

I was already trying to make it to one of the last trains from Euston so didn't have the time to try out one of the other entrances to the station, so ended up having to use my contactless card to pay for the trip, which is very annoying given I'd already paid for my travel that day.

I've complained to TfL but what do we think the chances of any sort of refund on the unnecessary contactless payment would be? It feels pretty poor that the barriers can be left unmanned like that.

 

[3rd rail land]

My understanding is that barriers have to be staffed when they are closed but this can be remotely. Perhaps there was a staff member present but out of sight which would fulfil the criteria but isn't great from a customer point of view.

As for the contactless refund I suspect you will get the refund but you may have to escalate/appeal as your original refund request will probably get reacted by whatever helpdesk bod reviews as I imagine it would be a pretty unusual scenario.

 

[Hadders]

I would also complain about the barriers being unstaffed.

 

[moogal]

I would also complain about the barriers being unstaffed.

That was the main gist of my complaint to TfL - to be honest I'm fully expecting them to turn around and say "tough" about the £3 PAYG fare, but I wanted to make sure that the point about the barriers being unstaffed was noted.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I would also complain about the barriers being unstaffed.

When barriers were being introduced at LU stations, it was made clear that it was a legal requirement to have staff on hand too for safety reasons. (There had been fears that LU would simply remove staff once barriers were there to check tickets.) However, it quickly became the practice at some lesser-used stations for there to be no staff in the area, nor even within sight of the barriers at all. In one such instance, someone trying to leave such a station late in the evening was having trouble getting the barrier to open and was getting in a tizz about it. So I went to the control box where there was a big red button - which was an emergency barrier release - and pressed it; all the barriers/gates then opened and I and the other person left the station.

I believe that pressing that button also set off some sort of alert system - I'm not sure whether it automatically called the fire brigade, but it at least meant the button-pressing had some impact besides opening the gates. I subsequently spoke to someone at the Fire Brigade who said that as far as safety rules were concerned, pressing the emergency gate release was absolutely the right thing to do if the gates were in use and there were no staff around. I was told that if the fire people did turn up, or otherwise have contact with the station in such a situation, they'd give the staff a b********g.

 

[MikeWM]

That was the main gist of my complaint to TfL - to be honest I'm fully expecting them to turn around and say "tough" about the £3 PAYG fare, but I wanted to make sure that the point about the barriers being unstaffed was noted.

I find that barriers on the underground increasingly *appear* to be unstaffed, because the member of staff that is supposed to be working them is often off helping other people, in particular trying to help them buy a ticket. In many places that ends up being out-of-sight of the gateline, so you end up standing there, often for minutes, trying to attract someone's attention.

It is an irritating side-effect, partly from the removal of ticket offices, that staff that previously would have been doing one thing now sometimes need to be attending to other things too. (Something for people to think about when enthusiastically talking about replacing ticket offices with 'roaming' staff on the national network - I don't think it has done anything positive to the experience of travelling around London).

 

[The Quincunx]

I have often seen people without tickets just brazenly push their way through the wide gate, and that is with staff present. If you had done that but holding a valid ticket, the only thing you would have done wrong would have been a Bye-law offence [9(2): Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station on the railway is via a manned or automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.]; but, if there had actually been any staff present to witness it, I would guess they would have ignored you (as they usually do the brazen ticketless).

 

[jon81uk]

I have often seen people without tickets just brazenly push their way through the wide gate, and that is with staff present. If you had done that but holding a valid ticket, the only thing you would have done wrong would have been a Bye-law offence [9(2): Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station on the railway is via a manned or automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.]; but, if there had actually been any staff present to witness it, I would guess they would have ignored you (as they usually do the brazen ticketless).

I think standard staff are told not to intervene due to the risk of getting attacked or stabbed etc. But tfL do regularly have both uniformed and plain clothes revenue protection inspectors who will ask to see tickets for those who push through. At Tottenham Hale earlier this week there was at least six RPI staff and two police officers watching the barriers. But without them there the "normal" staff won't do much.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find that barriers on the underground increasingly *appear* to be unstaffed, because the member of staff that is supposed to be working them is often off helping other people, in particular trying to help them buy a ticket. In many places that ends up being out-of-sight of the gateline, so you end up standing there, often for minutes, trying to attract someone's attention.

It is an irritating side-effect, partly from the removal of ticket offices, that staff that previously would have been doing one thing now sometimes need to be attending to other things too. (Something for people to think about when enthusiastically talking about replacing ticket offices with 'roaming' staff on the national network - I don't think it has done anything positive to the experience of travelling around London).

Indeed - friends of mine from abroad visiting London find the idea that there's no one obvious point (eg a ticket window) to go to to get help to be really off-putting and unwelcoming. They don't understand the idea that it's your job to just stand around looking helpless in the hope that a staff member notices and offers assistance.

 

[westv]

They don't understand the idea that it's your job to just stand around looking helpless in the hope that a staff member notices and offers assistance.

It's a bit like supermarket self service checkouts when you get an error whilst scanning your goods.

 

[alxndr]

It's a bit like supermarket self service checkouts when you get an error whilst scanning your goods.

At least at a self service there’s a red light that alerts staff (if they’re paying attention) to the fact there’s an issue. No one yet has developed a hat with a red light on for tourists to wear when they get stuck.

 

[blakey1152]

That was the main gist of my complaint to TfL - to be honest I'm fully expecting them to turn around and say "tough" about the £3 PAYG fare, but I wanted to make sure that the point about the barriers being unstaffed was noted.

I'm not sure but I suspect you be charged more than £3 for tapping out on a Contactless card without having tapped in first

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At least at a self service there’s a red light that alerts staff (if they’re paying attention) to the fact there’s an issue. No one yet has developed a hat with a red light on for tourists to wear when they get stuck.

Would waving both hands above the head at the CCTV work in attracting staff attention quickly?

 

[moogal]

I'm not sure but I suspect you be charged more than £3 for tapping out on a Contactless card without having tapped in first

This was on entry rather than exit, so I tapped out as usual when I arrived at Euston to avoid a max fare.

 

[Scott1]

Would waving both hands above the head at the CCTV work in attracting staff attention quickly?

Not unless someone happens to be watching. There are some stations where the office has a screen just watching the gates, so it at those it'd be more likely to be noticed.

Unfortunately a side effect of closing the ticket offices has been that the station staff (on many stations a single person) goes to help with the ticket machine or give directions and there's no one watching the gates. They could open them, but certainly at TOC stations (not applicable in the OPs case) most of the contracts require a certain operation level or the TOC gets fined. It's a bit of those 'have their cake and eat it situations' with the DfT wanting TOCs to reduce station staffing but also increase gate line operation.

I suspect Tfl will ask for proof of your travel card and refund the PAYG charge, your not going to be the first to have this issue, all though it's less common these days (fewer travel cards out there anymore). I wouldn't expect anything to change about the gates being attended though.

 

[matt_world2004]

Stations have a scorecard which penalises them the more barriers are opened. This leaves the temptation for the staff member to leave the barriers closed while going to the toilet . Knowing they would never get caught. Particularly at single staffed stations

 

[Jimini]

I had that at Edgware Road the other day when legging it to get a train from Euston as well. Ended up using contactless as the barriers were closed but not a soul in sight.

 

[miklcct]

I had that at Edgware Road the other day when legging it to get a train from Euston as well. Ended up using contactless as the barriers were closed but not a soul in sight.

I had that at Willesden Junction the other day as well. Ended up forcing through the barrier with my valid ticket which wouldn't work it.

 

[Taunton]

I find that barriers on the underground increasingly *appear* to be unstaffed, because the member of staff that is supposed to be working them is often off helping other people, in particular trying to help them buy a ticket.

Or not ... the 'side' barriers from the DLR to the Liz Line at Custom House sometimes are staffed, sometimes not. But in the latter case there's usually a huddle of about four uniformed staff all to one side round at the main gateline. Yes, I know it must be a boring shift, and like most elevated stations is cold and windy there in winter.

 

[londonbridge]

Slightly off topic but on the subject of barriers being open or closed. Was on a northbound metropolitan line train to Rickmansworth, dozed off and woke up at Chorleywood. Got off and went through the subway to change platforms and get a train back. Came up the ramp, to my right was the platform behind a gate which was padlocked shut. To my left was the exit to the street with a stand-alone reader. Went out onto the street and saw the station entrance on my right with the barriers closed. Couldn’t see any way onto the platform, couldn’t see any staff. Was about to tap out on the standalone reader and tap in again on the barriers and negotiate to get the extra fare refunded later, when a staff member came out of the office and asked if I was okay. Explained the situation and she opened the barrier and let me through to the platform. Point is, should the gate have been padlocked? What if, like me, you were unfamiliar with the station and entered through the barriers wanting a northbound train and then found the subway entrance locked and no way to cross to the northbound platform?

 

[winks]

My Sunday Out Day Travelcard constantly causes problems at the Gateline. It just never seems to work (believe it was code 09). Once this happens the paper ticket is knackered for the whole day. It really is annoying having to ask a member of staff to open the barriers when I have a perfectly valid ticket. One station I had to force open the wide gate as the LU staff member was behind the glass wall in the office - despite the Gateline being closed !

Anyone know why specifically code 09 & 07 constantly comes up with these tickets ?

 

[Horizon22]

When barriers were being introduced at LU stations, it was made clear that it was a legal requirement to have staff on hand too for safety reasons.

This isn't solely a LU thing; gatelines must be staffed all across the National Rail Network and if the member of staff has no relief and has to move away and out of sight for whatever reason (toilet break, assist at a distant TVM etc.) they are supposed to be all opened. There might be some genuine of-the-moment safety issue but again, all gates should be opened.

Often they'll do the sneaky "all gates closed apart from the wide aisle gate" which again isn't meant to happen.

As we all know if there's no eagle-eyed manager 24/7 and they are not getting complaints left, right and centre (e.g someone eventually sticks their head out of room or comes from elsewhere to help) its unlikely to change. There's lots of KPIs on having barriers staffed X% of the time (and this can be digitally recorded) so staff often try to ensure this is met.

I would claim the refund and also complain about the lack of staff and the potential safety & real revenue implications which might (at least temporarily) focus some minds.

 

[bcarmicle]

Anyone know why specifically code 09 & 07 constantly comes up with these tickets ?

Code 07 means that the barrier couldn't re-encode the ticket. Any subsequent reads of that ticket will fail with Code 09, which is a generic code read error, as the magstripe is now corrupted.

You can also get Code 09 independently if the magstripe is demagnetised, which can happen if you keep your ticket near your phone (or indeed any other magnets you have on you).

 

[Robin Edwards]

Code 07 means that the barrier couldn't re-encode the ticket. Any subsequent reads of that ticket will fail with Code 09, which is a generic code read error, as the magstripe is now corrupted.

You can also get Code 09 independently if the magstripe is demagnetised, which can happen if you keep your ticket near your phone (or indeed any other magnets you have on you).

I find that my paper tickets more often don't work at barriers and it seems is that the mag strip is corrupted as my ticket is kept with my mobile phone

 

[fandroid]

If the OP had travelled to Walthamstow from Liverpool Street then it's a good bet that the magstripe was corrupted when they joined the Overground there. It's not relevant to the substance of their complaint but bitter experience has taught me to avoid paper Travelcards especially on that route. While they last I'm using Travelcards loaded onto a Smartcard

 

[43066]

Often they'll do the sneaky "all gates closed apart from the wide aisle gate" which again isn't meant to happen.

This does indeed happen a fair bit.

London Bridge is a strange one because often some sections will be closed and staffed, while some will be left open. Not difficult to see what to do if you don’t fancy paying!