Has taxation for unhealthy items, such as cigarettes, gone too far in the UK?

[Starmill]

This demonstrates the "unintended consequences" of the sugar-tax rather well: rather than put up prices, manufacturers have changed their formulae to reduce the sugar content. In terms of preventing obesity that's a result, but does mean that the revenue from the "sugar levy" won't be as high as forecast.

The measure was intended much more to force this result than it was to generate revenue. It generates little, and its forecast was revised down several times.

I think that now the correct thing to do is eliminate the exemptions for fruit juices and milk-based drinks, then start lowering the upper threshold.

It was also notable how some manufacturers and retailers took the opportunity to simply increase the price of all drinks to take account of the new levy.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Want another portion? Chuck a tin of toms in.

Yes -I do that all the time. Also if I make too spicy for the wife or other family I add plain yoghurt which also bulks it up nicely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And thus, the "grey market" of American import soft-drinks being sold at a premium in many shops was born!

Those imported cans of coke though have too much sugar to serve as a suitable option for people with diabetes. Tea with sugar is the best option if at home, even though it's both sacrilegious and a bit gross!

1. "Fat" Coke was one of the few drinks that didn't change its recipe, because people are too particular about it.
2. US "fat" Coke is high-fructose corn syrup - only the European version is the original, made with actual sugar!

 

[najaB]

And thus, the "grey market" of American import soft-drinks being sold at a premium in many shops was born!

That market had always existed due to different countries' formulations having distinct tastes, and some people having more money than sense.

 

[306024]

From Yes Prime Minister, advocating the abolishment of smoking, and the economics of taxation. This was in 1986.

 

[Sean Davidson]

The cigarette taxation in this country does nothing more than encourage criminals to smuggle tobacco in from abroad.

 

[AM9]

The cigarette taxation in this country does nothing more than encourage criminals to smuggle tobacco in from abroad.

So by your standards, any tax (or duty as it mainly is on tobacco and alcohol) encourages criminal behaviour, - think:

VAT - plenty of fiddles there from top to bottom of the retail and service chain​

Duty - from VED, through to luxury goods duties​

Income tax - more than a little fiddling going on there ​

So just how in your crime free world do you think all the public services we rely on should be funded?

 

[najaB]

The cigarette taxation in this country does nothing more than encourage criminals to smuggle tobacco in from abroad.

I know data isn't the plural of anecdote, but I know two people who gave up smoking largely because it was so expensive.

 

[Wolfie]

I know data isn't the plural of anecdote, but I know two people who gave up smoking largely because it was so expensive.

Given that the stated reason for the taxes is to achieve that end l guess that they've been successful then.

 

[johntea]

I was a smoker but managed to pack it in for vaping, I haven't got to the next step of quitting vaping yet - one thing I've always wondered about vaping is how there are about a million vape shops even in a small town centre and they all manage to survive!

Maybe I'm just a boring vaper, I've had the same vaping kit for about 2 years now so just need to replace the coil now and again plus stick to the exact same liquid, which I actually buy from B&M rather than a vape shop!

I did have a couple of cigarettes the other week when I was in the middle of London with a dead battery and absolutely hated myself all day simply because the smell just clung to my clothes and I could smell it pretty much all day and even at home until they went in the washing machine! Obviously when you're smoking full time your sense of smell just gets used to that I suppose...

As for soft drinks I find Pepsi Max is fine (weirdly I now find normal Pepsi too sweet!) but most of the other sugar free drinks I can't stand, although I was quite surprised how similar Dr Pepper Zero is to the original

 

[Bedpan]

Yes - I would prefer sugary drinks are taxed too - Coke, Fanta etc.

They are, aren't they (although perhaps not enough)? I buy Coke Zero which is always cheaper than "Fat" Coke,

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the USA if you ask for a soda etc they give you an empty cup and you just self refill as much as you would like. Now you know why there is an obesity crisis here in the US. That said back on topic, doesn’t smoking cause you to lose weight?

 

[Starmill]

That said back on topic, doesn’t smoking cause you to lose weight?

A Faustian Bargain if ever there was one!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A Faustian Bargain if ever there was one!

I know - the dangers of smoking by a long long way Outweigh any possible “benefit”

 

[johntea]

I remember on a USA trip in one of the petrol stations it was about 80 cents for a small cup or 90 cents for a XXXXXL cup

 

[najaB]

As for soft drinks I find Pepsi Max is fine (weirdly I now find normal Pepsi too sweet!) but most of the other sugar free drinks I can't stand, although I was quite surprised how similar Dr Pepper Zero is to the original

That's because Pepsi Max and Dr Pepper Zero both use sucralose rather than aspartame or saccharin. Sucralose tastes much more like sugar since it's made from sugar, with a hydrogen atom replaced by a chlorine atom in the molecular structure.

Try tasting Splenda (or any sucralose-based sweetener) and Sweet-n-Low (or other saccharin-based) or Candrela (or other aspartame-based sweetener) to see.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Doesn’t the UK get most of its tobacco from the USA?

 

[najaB]

Doesn’t the UK get most of its tobacco from the USA?

I'd expect a significant percentage would come from the USA, yes. Though world's largest exporter is Brazil.
Source: https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/42401/

 

[Techniquest]

Food that can be cooked quickly out of the freezer, and healthy food are not mutually exclusive.

Yes I realised after reading your post that there are indeed sensible options available in the frozen foods range. I just don't really buy it, I'm not one for all this posh stuff and silly combinations.

My main purchases these days out of the freezers at work are Sharwoods chicken korma and rice (really nice, but don't bother with the pot you add water to from the same brand on the tinned foods aisle...), battered onion rings, BBQ popcorn chicken and crinkle cut chips.

Which has reminded me (weirdly) I need a new packet of pasta for the cupboard!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was a smoker but managed to pack it in for vaping, I haven't got to the next step of quitting vaping yet - one thing I've always wondered about vaping is how there are about a million vape shops even in a small town centre and they all manage to survive!

Very often you do come across a business where you go "how on earth does that survive" - often a pub, restaurant or similar, but yes, things like vape shops too.

A not entirely uncommon answer to that question (other than landlords who deliberately lose money on their pub because they're really retired and running it is a hobby so they don't mind putting money into it) is that the business is a front for money laundering.

 

[najaB]

I doubt most vape shops are fronts for organised crime. They likely just get dirt-cheap rent because they're one of the few stores that actively move to the High Street, and compared to restaurants they have pretty low overheads and pretty high profit margins.

Edit: A quick search online lead to some claims of around a 60% markup on vape liquid at the low end. Top end can be >300%.

 

[cb a1]

Smoked my last cigarette 11 years, 363 days and 19 hours ago (not that I'm counting), just before a 'milestone' birthday.

Convinced myself for years that I enjoyed it, but every former smoker I've talked to about this agreed with me that in our heart of hearts we knew we were delusional and it was plain old-fashioned addiction and satisfying the hell that was withdrawal was what we pretended enjoyment to be.

Moved to nicotine gum for about 5 years, then ordinary gum for another 4 years [30 a day] before finally stopping the gum.

As for the levels of taxation, that depends on what the objective of the government is: is it covering health costs, paying the negative externalities, (along with the perennial major objective - winning votes).

 

[py_megapixel]

I am going to say something controversial. Tax on cigarettes needs to be high. Cost to society is huge. Tax on alcohol should be high - cost to society is huge. Tax on petrol and diesel should be much higher than it currently is - cost to society is high.

I entirely agree with you on that one. I think if the NHS is going to have to treat people with smoking-related illnesses, then it's only fair that smokers are taxed more.

I also take the view that a complete ban on smoking in public, outside of dedicated areas, would be a positive thing. I simply can't stand breathing in second-hand smoke; it's absolutely vile and it's a burden on public health as a whole. And proper enforcement of the smoking bans that do exist (particularly on stations!) wouldn't go amiss either.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, of course. But I still don’t get why anyone would. But then some people enjoy train spotting and I don’t get tht either.

Well the difference with trainspotting is that it isn't unhealthy, expensive, or detrimental to the rest of society...

 

[yorkie]

Let's try to stay on topic please

 

[Journeyman]

Had it occurred to you that some people might actually enjoy smoking ?

Have you ever witnessed a smoking related death?

My mum enjoyed smoking too. The ten years she took to die from chronic lung disease were a right barrel of laughs.

 

[Bedpan]

Smoked my last cigarette 11 years, 363 days and 19 hours ago (not that I'm counting), just before a 'milestone' birthday.

Convinced myself for years that I enjoyed it, but every former smoker I've talked to about this agreed with me that in our heart of hearts we knew we were delusional and it was plain old-fashioned addiction and satisfying the hell that was withdrawal was what we pretended enjoyment to be.

Moved to nicotine gum for about 5 years, then ordinary gum for another 4 years [30 a day] before finally stopping the gum.

As for the levels of taxation, that depends on what the objective of the government is: is it covering health costs, paying the negative externalities, (along with the perennial major objective - winning votes).

Much the same path as me then, except I don't like gum, and I had a nicotine habit for longer. I still got the nicotine kick from the first suck from the inhalator in the morning and that must have been due to pure addiction. Trebor extra strong mints helped with that to an extent.

 

[Trackman]

Very often you do come across a business where you go "how on earth does that survive" - often a pub, restaurant or similar, but yes, things like vape shops too.

A not entirely uncommon answer to that question (other than landlords who deliberately lose money on their pub because they're really retired and running it is a hobby so they don't mind putting money into it) is that the business is a front for money laundering.

I know someone who runs a beauty salon, it’s never busy and doesn't make much money so is propped up by her rich hubby to ‘keep her out of trouble‘. She always parks her Porsche outside and people think she’s coining it in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know someone who runs a beauty salon, it’s never busy and doesn't make much money so is propped up by her rich hubby to ‘keep her out of trouble‘. She always parks her Porsche outside and people think she’s coining it in.

That's another possibility, indeed. Nothing stopping someone choosing to lose money on a "hobby" type business if they want and have that money (unless it would cause issues with competition law, but this sort of business pretty much never would).

 

[Techniquest]

Trebor extra strong mints helped with that to an extent.

+1 to the extra strong mints fan club! I used them too to help me find something to replace the habit, as well as increasing my patience which at the time was not high. I finally finished with the mints after about 3 and a half months, but to be fair in that time after my last smoke I was also working on various other health-related projects.

Almost 11 months since my last smoke, and like others I used to claim I enjoyed it and all that as a way to rationalise it. When I stop and think of all that time, effort and money I used on the habit, I am lost for words. I just wish I'd broken that link years ago.

I still vainly hope the rest of my colleagues will see the light one day, and my team will become 100% non-smoking. It's still roughly half and half, but we'll get there one day.