Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[12LDA28C]

I have never got the appeal, I can barely afford regular trains. For that old experience I would much rather go on a heritage railway where you often get to experience a few different trains for 1/20th of the price. I have another memories of riding on a MK2 carriage in the early 2000's on a XC service to Stoke. I had no idea what it was and I had a new fangled WAP phone, I remember using it to go on Wikipedia to find out what the carriage was! That was my first memory of using the internet on a phone for something actually useful. I used to dread them so much I used to try and get the Pendolino service, but I must admit now I would quite like to go on a MK2 again, just not on an expensive railtour.

The appeal of railtours is experiencing classic heritage traction doing what it was built to do, i.e. to haul trains at design speed on the main line, which is rather different to pottering around at 25mph on a heritage railway. Some people prefer one activity, some the other. Horses for courses.

 

[Dave S 56F]

I see that steam dreams don't do standard travel on their carriages now for steam tours since 16 April 2025 on their 1st tour from Shoeburyness to Cardiff.
I noticed that 1st class by the looks of it uses what was standard seating in the MK 2 coffin carriage with no toplights not been able to hear the steam loco chugging especially if this coach is at the rear of the coach rake, I find this quite unfair that a passenger pays £225 to travel in a MK 2 Coach and for the privilege to travel in a dining Coach with a top light it's £425.
Can someone on here tell me if the mK. 2 carriage steam dreams use is the only 1st class carriage passengers are sat in or are some of the MK 1 carriages steam dreams use also for 1st class passengers?

 

[Sun Chariot]

The recent HDL "East West DEMU Tour", the carriages' door droplights were open and appeared to lack window bars. Is that the case? Is every vestibule "guarded" by tour staff? Or are the window bars fitted inside the doors?

Attached image shows April's tour: the door droplights, minus bars, are visible.

 

[renegademaster]

The vestibules normally aren't routinely guarded on any railtour I've been on (Mainly UK Railtours and Railway Touring Company but I've been on Hastings once) but if you are caught lingering the staff will usher you back to your seat.

 

[Dave S 56F]

More pertinently it's a consequence of David Smith being too stubborn to retrofit his Mk1s. LSL, SRPS and Vintage Trains have all either managed it or are progressing to the satisfaction of the regulator.

Vintage trains have completed their fitting of C.D.L. to their carriages as I'm a regular traveller on their tours.

 

[Zomboid]

Rail tours are just far too expensive, and even if you can get an opening window the chances of hearing anything seem pretty minimal, which defeats the point of steam - if you can't hear it see the engine then it's rather be in an EMU, thanks. I do quite like the idea of the MK to Carlisle via S&C and Shap run for the scenery (and I like the fact that it uses electric traction), and the fares seem pretty reasonable for standard class, but I can't imagine doing that day with kids aged 5 and 2!

The last steam on the mainline I did was the SL Hitoyoshi in Japan, and though it was a great ride, I couldn't hear the engine there either. Though the scenery and the fact that the fare was included in my JR Kyushu Pass somewhat made up for that (think I had to get a free reservation to be able to travel), and we used it as part of our getting from Hiroshima to Kagoshima itinerary.

 

[STINT47]

Perhaps a solution to sealed coaches is to patch the sound from the engine through the PA? A microphone set externaly on the front coach could be relayed back down the train.

 

[UP13]

How many railtours are enthusiasts only? I suspect having constant sound played over the PA would irritate more people than it pleases.

 

[Sun Chariot]

How many railtours are enthusiasts only? I suspect having constant sound played over the PA would irritate more people than it pleases.

As a 1980s tour basher, I often wonder the same. Apart from Branch Line Society tours and designated site visits, I cannot immediately think of any examples.

A wicked part of me imagines a steam excursion, with sound of the trailing 57 playing on the train's PA throughout the day.

 

[DelW]

Perhaps a solution to sealed coaches is to patch the sound from the engine through the PA? A microphone set externaly on the front coach could be relayed back down the train.

That's a bit old-school, surely the 2025 solution is one or more video cameras on the engine live-streaming via the train WiFi?

 

[Welly]

I was at Saxilby on Saturday to photograph 60163 taking on water there and noticed the whining of the air-con motors under the coaches. Never heard those during BR days!

 

[duffield]

How many railtours are enthusiasts only? I suspect having constant sound played over the PA would irritate more people than it pleases.

Have the sound played via an intranet site** through the on-train wifi and people can listen to it on headphones.


**Local, non-internet site as often used for signon, info etc. for on-train wifi.

 

[Krokodil]

That's a bit old-school, surely the 2025 solution is one or more video cameras on the engine live-streaming via the train WiFi?

If I wanted to watch a video I could do that for free at home.

 

[DelW]

If I wanted to watch a video I could do that for free at home.

It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion!

More a comment on the YouTube generation (or whatever it is that teenagers watch now).

 

[Peter Sarf]

If I wanted to watch a video I could do that for free at home.

Beat me to it.

It wasn't an entirely serious suggestion!

More a comment on the YouTube generation (or whatever it is that teenagers watch now).

Aye, but it is the way things are going.

 

[Bikeman78]

Rail tours are just far too expensive, and even if you can get an opening window the chances of hearing anything seem pretty minimal, which defeats the point of steam - if you can't hear it see the engine then it's rather be in an EMU, thanks. I do quite like the idea of the MK to Carlisle via S&C and Shap run for the scenery (and I like the fact that it uses electric traction), and the fares seem pretty reasonable for standard class, but I can't imagine doing that day with kids aged 5 and 2!

I spent two days at the West Somerset steam gala. Good value rovers available and the sound of the Manor pounding up the climb from Williton to Crowcombe Heathfield is hard to beat. I recall a run, back in 2012, with Tangmere struggling up Hemerdon bank on drizzly rails. It sounded amazing, even from the back coach. That is how I prefer to remember mainline steam runs. Now I would rather give my money to a preserved railway.

 

[cambsy]

Im doing the Here There and everywhere tour with Pathfinder Tours, which used many times over the years, but not for last couple years ,and so far rarely, if ever had MK2 air con stock, though this tour from what garnered when booking by phone, is due to be Mk2 air con stock partly or whole rake, so will be interested to see what they are like for being behind 37’s for the day. I have travelled MK air con few times and found them fine so hopefully will be fine for this tour.

 

[Class15]

Personally prefer the Mk2s to the mk1s by far. More comfortable and the aircon usually works in my opinion.

Don’t personally mind whether I can hear the loco.

 

[aftv]

Spent the best part of the day in one of the ERS Mk2s on the 29/03 - Aircon couldn't make it's mind up about working . Thankfully there was a breeze coming in through the droplights in the vestibule. I'm not overly fussed if I can hear the loco (s.) I found the Mk2s to be much better comfortwise than the last Railtour I did which utilised WCR Mk1s.

 

[yorksrob]

The recent HDL "East West DEMU Tour", the carriages' door droplights were open and appeared to lack window bars. Is that the case? Is every vestibule "guarded" by tour staff? Or are the window bars fitted inside the doors?

Attached image shows April's tour: the door droplights, minus bars, are visible.

No, no staff posted at the doors and no drop light bars either.

 

[Sun Chariot]

No, no staff posted at the doors and no drop light bars either.

Wonderful! Thanks

 

[yorksrob]

Wonderful! Thanks

People are clearly warned and expected not to stick anything out of the envelope of the train, as you would expect.

 

[DarloRich]

People are clearly warned and expected not to stick anything out of the envelope of the train, as you would expect.

that's all fine until a silly sausage loses control of themselves and starts acting up!

Personally prefer the Mk2s to the mk1s by far. More comfortable and the aircon usually works in my opinion.

Don’t personally mind whether I can hear the loco.

Agree - I am going on a steam special with my partner for a nice day out. I have never understood this obsession with train noise!

 

[bleeder4]

The latest news update on the WCR website is all about the Mk2 coaches they'll be using for the Jacobite season and how it's such a privilege to travel in them behind steam. So they're setting their marketing into overdrive!

 

[yorksrob]

that's all fine until a silly sausage loses control of themselves and starts acting up!

This is all warned about as well.

Fortunately this approach has worked so far.

 

[DarloRich]

Fortunately this approach has worked so far.

ok - i am seeing quite few holes in the cheese!

 

[Sun Chariot]

I find it odd, that we of older years were perfectly capable of travelling with open droplights or with (Mk1 / Mk2a-c) sliding vents; were perfectly capable of looking without decapitating ourselves or injuring others in our quest for enjoyment.

Yes, there were occasions I leant my body against the door frame (not door) to get a photo (e.g. pair of 20s at Firsby, on my Skegness train).
Yes, I always first checked for head-hazards.
Yes, I always took personal responsibility for my and others' wellbeing.
No, I didn't lob my head out at 125mph.
No, I don't recall a plethora of news about people dying due to this. Granted, I've read of a very small number in the past 30 years.

So - what's changed? Are people really less capable to make safe, informed judgement?

 

[DarloRich]

I find it odd, that we of older years were perfectly capable of travelling with open droplights

it doesn't matter what happened in the olden days. To quote LP Hartley:

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there

 

[Sun Chariot]

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there

I've got my passport and camera - where's the queue for the one way trip to the past....

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure that air-con stock itself has effected bookings to a massive degree (though I reckon it will have done to a degree as I do think Mk1s with opening windows make for a better experience overall) but I do think the cost of actually doing a railtour will have done.

For instance UK Railtours Kent Coaster in early June - Standard class £129, First Non-Dining £179, First Dining £289. The BLS don't seem to have any mainline tours open for booking at the moment but they're usually in a similar ballpark to UK Railtours (though without dining). LSL's Tor Bay & Dart Express in July Standard class £119 and First Non-Dining £149.

Then add in probably at least one night in a hotel which is often going to rush you the thick end of £100 for a Friday or Saturday night and then travel to get to the start and back again and I reckon you can easily be looking at dropping £300+ for a railtour these days even in Standard class. That's a lot of money. It wasn't all that long ago that you'd get teh tour ticket for £80/90 and the hotel for £50. Considering all the other cost of living increases that are going on in the background I reckon that a lot of people are being far more selective. I know I am!

My loyalty is pretty much just to the BLS these days as I know that they'll always put on a good tour and anyone else it basically has to have some sort of real key highlight (very interesting traction, interesting track, interesting people to tag along with!) to get my interest. Otherwise it's just so much money.

I'm sure that enthusiasts and others have always whinged about the price of railtours (I think Pathfinder have been known as Chingfinder for a large number of years? ) but even in the time I've been doing railtours (around 15 years now) it feels like they've gotten more expensive in a fundamental way which impacts on the ability of certain chunks of the target market to actually do them, or at least as many of them, as it used to be possible to do five or six years ago.