Has the use of air-con stock on railtours affected bookings ?

[DarloRich]

where's the queue for the one way trip to the past....

not sure about a one way trip - i wouldnt mind visiting though.

BTW - we have all stuck our head out of trains sometimes when we shouldn't. I liken it thus:

When I first started work several years ago now it was common to go for a pint or even 2 at lunchtime. These days; absolutely not. Times change and what was once acceptable becomes unacceptable.

 

[43096]

I find it odd, that we of older years were perfectly capable of travelling with open droplights or with (Mk1 / Mk2a-c) sliding vents; were perfectly capable of looking without decapitating ourselves or injuring others in our quest for enjoyment.

Yes, there were occasions I leant my body against the door frame (not door) to get a photo (e.g. pair of 20s at Firsby, on my Skegness train).
Yes, I always first checked for head-hazards.
Yes, I always took personal responsibility for my and others' wellbeing.
No, I didn't lob my head out at 125mph.
No, I don't recall a plethora of news about people dying due to this. Granted, I've read of a very small number in the past 30 years.

So - what's changed? Are people really less capable to make safe, informed judgement?

What’s changed? An enthusiast sticking his head out of the one droplight on a 442 and being fatally injured. Similarly, a passenger (under the influence of alcohol) leaning out of a GWR HST droplight with similar consequences.

 

[yorksrob]

ok - i am seeing quite few holes in the cheese!

I imagine it would be quite an onerous requirement to have to have a member of staff stood around in every vestibule all the time.

BTW - we have all stuck our head out of trains sometimes when we shouldn't. I liken it thus:

I have to say that even as a seasoned mk1 passenger, it's not something I've ever indulged in.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm not sure that air-con stock itself has effected bookings to a massive degree ... but I do think the cost of actually doing a railtour will have done.

I agree and you've nicely echoed my sentiment on post #2.
My tour years were during the 1980s and early 1990s. Pricing structure seemed to give "more bang for buck" (in the 1980s, I only worked Saturdays, so I spent my hard-earned wisely).

What’s changed? An enthusiast sticking his head out of the one droplight on a 442 and being fatally injured. Similarly, a passenger (under the influence of alcohol) leaning out of a GWR HST droplight with similar consequences.

That's right. I can recall those. Incidents like that, reported in the press, I think - vague grey brain cells - I can count on one hand, in the past thirty years. Not to say those were the only ones; but it's hardly a bow-wave of danger-travel.
Aircon stock- when the aircon works comfortably and coach seat cushions are in good condition - gets my vote: I've many memories of draughty pressure-vent stock, on service trains and tours.

 

[xotGD]

It all depends on your motivation.

If you are doing a tour to yellow-pen some sidings and/or red-pen a couple of 66s, then you may be quite happy to be hermetically sealed in a set of coffins. Likewise if you just want a day out.

If you are doing it because you are a fan of the heritage traction on the front, unless all you care about is accumulating mileage, you want to be able to experience it, so you want windows that can be opened to let in the sound (and smell!). Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[anothertyke]

I'm not sure that air-con stock itself has effected bookings to a massive degree (though I reckon it will have done to a degree as I do think Mk1s with opening windows make for a better experience overall) but I do think the cost of actually doing a railtour will have done.

For instance UK Railtours Kent Coaster in early June - Standard class £129, First Non-Dining £179, First Dining £289. The BLS don't seem to have any mainline tours open for booking at the moment but they're usually in a similar ballpark to UK Railtours (though without dining). LSL's Tor Bay & Dart Express in July Standard class £119 and First Non-Dining £149.

Then add in probably at least one night in a hotel which is often going to rush you the thick end of £100 for a Friday or Saturday night and then travel to get to the start and back again and I reckon you can easily be looking at dropping £300+ for a railtour these days even in Standard class. That's a lot of money. It wasn't all that long ago that you'd get teh tour ticket for £80/90 and the hotel for £50. Considering all the other cost of living increases that are going on in the background I reckon that a lot of people are being far more selective. I know I am!

My loyalty is pretty much just to the BLS these days as I know that they'll always put on a good tour and anyone else it basically has to have some sort of real key highlight (very interesting traction, interesting track, interesting people to tag along with!) to get my interest. Otherwise it's just so much money.

I'm sure that enthusiasts and others have always whinged about the price of railtours (I think Pathfinder have been known as Chingfinder for a large number of years? ) but even in the time I've been doing railtours (around 15 years now) it feels like they've gotten more expensive in a fundamental way which impacts on the ability of certain chunks of the target market to actually do them, or at least as many of them, as it used to be possible to do five or six years ago.

For me price is definitely a factor. I have done three trips in the last year, standard class, and they have all been in the £200-250 range including a night in a hotel because I didn't 100% trust Northern to get me to Preston/Warrington, correctly on one of the three occasions.

Difficult to make relevant comparisons, but a coach trip with entry to an historic house/garden is around £40, opera/concert tickets around the same. Now Saphos's entry price for a single traveller is £270, that is definitely above my limit.

That's not a whinge and I am enormously grateful for the pleasure I have had over the last dozen years since retirement. Things change, have to reluctantly admit I am not getting any younger etc.

 

[Sun Chariot]

.... you want windows that can be opened to let in the sound (and smell!). Otherwise, what's the point?

From personal experience during the 1980s and early 1990s - service trains and tours - if I was more than three carriages behind a loco, then I couldn't hear it above rail noise anyway.

In the leading coach (a Mk2a) for Fellsman 2, May 1988, was a time when I'd wished we didn’t have the sliding vents open. 50050 + 024 up front. "Vanguard" started chucking a biblical oil slick as we climbed Shap - and I still remember having oil on my clothes and in my sandwiches by the time we crested the summit...

 

[Krokodil]

how it's such a privilege to travel in them behind steam

Good luck with that at the moment, they've got a steam ban due to the dry weather.

I find it odd, that we of older years were perfectly capable of travelling with open droplights or with (Mk1 / Mk2a-c) sliding vents; were perfectly capable of looking without decapitating ourselves or injuring others in our quest for enjoyment.

The infrastructure has changed, the legal environment has changed, and there have always been problems with enthusiasts who can't behave themselves.

 

[The_Train]

Now that we have had SRPS cancelling tours for low bookings in their Mk1 stock, I think the answer to this threads question is no!

 

[yorksrob]

Now that we have had SRPS cancelling tours for low bookings in their Mk1 stock, I think the answer to this threads question is no!

Depends on the underlying reason though.

 

[The_Train]

Depends on the underlying reason though.

I think that is the point, there is a multitude of reasons why rail tour bookings* have fallen off a cliff!

I was perhaps being a bit flippant in saying the answer was an outright "no", because Mk2/3 stock is clearly one issue but it is not the sole issue by a long way, and I don't believe it to be a key issue either and the failure to fill Mk1 tours just proves that. The cost of tours coupled with the higher cost of living, limited traction, routings, start/end points, start/end times etc all play a part in the decision making. Operators like UK Railtours have shown that if you get everything right with a tour, you can fill it irrelevant of the stock you use

*this refers to enthusiast rail tours as it appears to me that the upper end charters such as Saphos, Steam Dreams, Statesman, Midland Pullman etc are continuing to sell out tours with ease.

 

[Haywain]

there is a multitude of reasons why rail tour bookings* have fallen off a cliff!

I think the use of 'coffins' is one reason, and it certainly does nothing to encourage me to book on railtours. But there are also problems around prices, timings and the fact that enthusiast tours are aiming at an ageing and, due to ageing, shrinking demographic.

 

[renegademaster]

Is there any evidence that bookings have fell off a cliff?
Despite the "coffins" the West Coast still run the same amount of trains on the Jacobite as they did before the exemption was revoked.

 

[ainsworth74]

Despite the "coffins" the West Coast still run the same amount of trains on the Jacobite as they did before the exemption was revoked.

Is the Jacobite really an accurate reflection of the wider railtour market?

 

[renegademaster]

Is the Jacobite really an accurate reflection of the wider railtour market?

Most of the diesel railtour market have used MK2s for ages. Railway Touring Company (who use WCRC) has a healthy iternairy of tours. LSL's schedule seems comparably light. Saphos/Steam dreams aren't running basically every weekend like RTC does.

 

[JGurney]

While it matters to me personally, I doubt that opening windows are much of a deal breaker, as I doubt it mattered to the large majority of railtour patrons. Droplights might be more important for those wanting to hear the loco.

When I first realised the pleasures of being by an open window at the more interesting parts of railtours, I was initially diffident and avoided being a window hog as it was obvious that there were few windows per person available. However it soon became clear that standing by a window was a minority interest among fellow travellers. Most were quite happy in their seats and I would often have a choice of vacant window-side locations in vestibules.

Like other posters, I don't think I did anything stupid. I did not stick my head or any other part out at speed. But when a train came to a halt for points to be set on a freight branch I might well have a look out, and keep looking around while the train proceeded at 10mph or so, keeping a careful lookout for hazards. Clearly most of my fellow passengers didn't want to do the same, or there would have been a queue for taking turns at each window.

While being boxed in is a bit of a disincentive, I think the main factors limiting my own railtour trips these days are price and availability.
For me, the prime attraction of railtours is access to rare track. Over the years I have covered quite a lot of the available freight branches, and the remaining ones come up very rarely. There are a number of short bits like curves that come up now and then, but paying getting on for £100 to go on a couple of half-mile lengths of track when the rest of the day is on lines I have often travelled on by service trains is straining my enthusiasm.

 

[Killingworth]

After 6 pages the answer to the question is directly, not a lot but indirectly significantly.

That's due to raised prices necessary to cover the expenditure to ensure nobody can stick their head out of a window when the train's in motion, an action most would previously have done quite safely.

The higher the price the more users expect value for their money. Railtour fatigue may play a part, although Settle and Carlisle still seems to sell well.

However knowing York-Doncaster takes about 20 minutes on LNER and finding your charter takes nearer 80 (just one of several diversions and loopings on a recent trip) may sap enthusiasm for future trips. Early starts and late finishes in the dark deter many.

 

[31160]

Of course to add to the above another now seemingly present consideration is after you book the tour, and the hotels, and the cheap ish advance travel. You sit down looking forward to the tour then it gets caped in front of your eyes and although you obviously get your money back from the tour the rest your stuck with, cheers then
Now that absolutely will make you think twice next time and I spoke to someone that knows and he said the chingfinder overnight 37 effort wasn't selling as expected, doesn't mean anything absolute at this point but byer beware and all that

 

[Peter Sarf]

Of course to add to the above another now seemingly present consideration is after you book the tour, and the hotels, and the cheap ish advance travel. You sit down looking forward to the tour then it gets caped in front of your eyes and although you obviously get your money back from the tour the rest your stuck with, cheers then
Now that absolutely will make you think twice next time and I spoke to someone that knows and he said the chingfinder overnight 37 effort wasn't selling as expected, doesn't mean anything absolute at this point but byer beware and all that

This is a factor that has affected all my rail use. I only now do day trips as that means there is no cost of hotel which I cannot get refunded if there is a strike (or cancellation in the case of a railtour).

Cost. I did a few railtours back in the late 70s and early 80s. I was a student earning money in Tescos for about 14 yours a week. I do not remember cost being a problem and I only remember once hiring a car to get us from Strood to Marylebone in the morning because Southern did not run early enough. Granted at that age I was living at home but I was saving money for my future.

I would prefer the outside atmosphere to come in. I was recently on a Networker (class 465) and it really struck me how pleasant it was compared to a 377.

 

[Iskra]

I don’t mind whether it’s an aircon carriage or not, providing that the aircon actually works, which is far from guaranteed on some of my recent tours. Paying through the nose to slowly bake for an 18-hour day with little apology or acknowledgement of the issue is poor.

Upthread, someone suggested piping loco noise through the PA. They obviously don’t travel on many railtours, as a working/audible PA is far from a given.

A number of operators are charging high prices, but can’t deliver the basics of the experience. It’s hardly surprising people aren’t rushing to part with their cash.

 

[Deepgreen]

I suspect the era of steam tours is slowly ceasing, mainly owing to the stock that is to be used, but also because the customer base that relates to steam most directly is also dwindling with time. As many have said, a sealed coach doesn't afford anything except glimpses of exhaust, and most of the sense of steam haulage is lost without the sound. I wonder about the lack of disposable income theory, though - for example, the amazing rise of food delivery services shows that there is plenty of money to waste out there!

 

[renegademaster]

I suspect the era of steam tours is slowly ceasing,

Considering that theirs a steam railtour basically every weekend somewhere or another, that seems a bold claim. Railway Touring Company have over 50 tours listed on their website at the moment.

 

[Iskra]

I suppose one way that the railtour operators have reacted, is by opening up positioning moves for bookings at a reduced price. This is positive in many ways, but does it affect bookings for the main tour if it is substantially more expensive than the positioning moves, and are punters more likely to try and do multiple positioning move tours rather than fewer proper railtours?

 

[43096]

I suppose one way that the railtour operators have reacted, is by opening up positioning moves for bookings at a reduced price. This is positive in many ways, but does it affect bookings for the main tour if it is substantially more expensive than the positioning moves, and are punters more likely to try and do multiple positioning move tours rather than fewer proper railtours?

The problem with that is that if there are insufficient bookings for the main tour, it will be cancelled, which means the positioning is also cancelled.

 

[Iskra]

The problem with that is that if there are insufficient bookings for the main tour, it will be cancelled, which means the positioning is also cancelled.

The risk is spread somewhat, as the positioning tour pick-up points will be necessarily different to those of the main tour, and it may feed sales of the main tour as some will use the positioning tours to help them do the main tour instead of driving or catching service trains etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any evidence that bookings have fell off a cliff?
Despite the "coffins" the West Coast still run the same amount of trains on the Jacobite as they did before the exemption was revoked.

It doesn't seem to be going down very well though.

'Harry Potter' Jacobite train operator slammed for substitute 'Primark' carriages

Former British Rail blue and grey coaches deployed amid ongoing safety

www.scotsman.com

'Harry Potter' Jacobite train operator slammed for substitute 'Primark' carriages​

By Alastair Dalton​

Transport Correspondent​

Passengers travelling on the Hogwarts Express-style Jacobite train in the Highlands have been angered after its normal red carriages were replaced with blue ex-British Rail Inter-City coaches.

The Friends of the West Highland Lines (FoWHL) said it was “like seeing a Marks & Spencer store from the pavement and going in and finding it’s Primark”.

The substitute carriages have been drafted in by operator West Coast Railways as part of an ongoing dispute with rail safety regulators who have insisted the train must have centrally-locking doors.

The move has added to the frustration of Harry Potter fans booking tickets for the service between Fort William and Mallaig because its steam locomotive has been temporarily replaced with a diesel engine due to the high wildfire risk.

One passenger posted on Tripadvisor: “Awful coaches, not the Harry Potter coaches we were expecting, modern blue and grey coaches.”

Another, Alan G, said: “Complete waste of time! We are sitting on what can only be described as a old 70s/80s inter city carriage, not even a classic.”

Marie, visiting Anjou in France, posted: “Very disappointing. We planned an immersive experience and ended up on a cigarette-smelling train from the 70s. Nothing or almost nothing to do with the Harry Potter movie except a few goodies sold.”

West Coast Railways has applied for a further exemption from the long-established central door locking requirement for its original Jacobite carriages, which are known as “Mark 1s”, despite losing a High Court case against the Office of Rail and Road regulator (ORR) in 2023.

Doug Carmichael of the FoWHL, said: “Although the coaches have all the requirements expected by the ORR, West Coast Railways should have considered fitting new door locking to their existing fleet to satisfy the expectations of their customers, a majority of whom are ardent Harry Potter fans and expect the train to look similar to that shown in the movies.

“A coach the 'wrong' colour is a bit like seeing a Marks & Spencer store from the pavement and going in and finding it’s Primark.”

The carriages have been used on the Jacobite’s afternoon service but from Monday they will be used on the morning service.

In a statement on its website, West Coast Railways said: “Due to the extreme weather conditions we have experienced from the start of our season, we are having to carry out additional and essential maintenance on our carriages.

“Starting on May 19 and lasting for a few weeks, the normal carriages used on the morning service are to be replaced with our ex-British Rail Inter-City rolling stock in their traditional colours of blue and grey.

“The use of these carriages on the Jacobite service is a rare opportunity.

“Although the exterior differs from the usual carriages, the interior is still of the same standard so we are confident that you will have an enjoyable trip.

“All booked passengers will be notified where it affects them.”

Commercial manager James Shuttleworth added: “They're being used as they are already fitted with central door locking until such time as we gain an exemption for the Mark 1 vehicles. Dialogue is on-going with the ORR.

“As far as the blue and grey is concerned, we're not disguising the fact.”

Mr Shuttleworth explained that the carriages were being switched between the two daily services because the steel “tyres” on their wheels were having to be changed more often than usual.

He said: “There is a plan to rotate/swap the vehicles so the tyres can be turned on our lathe, due to wear, which also happens more frequently in dry weather.”

The extra maintenance needed follows similar conditions in 2018 when the Jacobite carriages’ tyres had to be changed four times rather than twice as normal.

That led to the cancellation of Christmas trips because of insufficient time to complete the work after the end of the summer season in October.

The Jacobite, developed from a steam service launched on the route by British Rail in 1984, is the closest thing to the fictional Hogwarts Express in the Harry Potter books and has been operated by West Coast Railways for the last 30 years.

 

[renegademaster]

It doesn't seem to be going down very well though.

'Harry Potter' Jacobite train operator slammed for substitute 'Primark' carriages

Former British Rail blue and grey coaches deployed amid ongoing safety

www.scotsman.com

Articles are just words on paper, they still feel able to run two services a day all summer, just like it was before.

 

[LUYMun]

Considering that theirs a steam railtour basically every weekend somewhere or another, that seems a bold claim. Railway Touring Company have over 50 tours listed on their website at the moment.

Think it's more to do with proper steam railtours and not glorified meals on wheels, as is the case with the majority of steam-hauled railtours. As soon as (wealthy non-gricer) patrons board the train, they forget about the engine up front - might as well be a Duff with cardboard cutouts of Braunton stuck onto the sides!

 

[Iskra]

Articles are just words on paper, they still feel able to run two services a day all summer, just like it was before.

The Harry Potter element of the service has always been dubious at best surely it’s primarily about the scenic beauty on offer? The external colour of the carriages is a matter of personal taste, but it’s hardly an issue when you’re sat inside them. At least the Blue/Grey coaches are in good condition externally. Also, it is an authentic livery for the line.

I suspect an under-employed journalist has read some TripAdvisor comments and decided to produce a quick-win article that takes minimal effort but attracts some comment…

 

[renegademaster]

Think it's more to do with proper steam railtours and not glorified meals on wheels, as is the case with the majority of steam-hauled railtours. As soon as (wealthy non-gricer) patrons board the train, they forget about the engine up front - might as well be a Duff with cardboard cutouts of Braunton stuck onto the sides!

What characterises a "propper steam railtour"?