Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Bletchleyite]

Pod-point turn on automatically when you plug in but will turn of after 15 mins if you don't claim the charge on an app. To unplug you press release in the car, that's it. All rapids all need an RFID card or app to turn on/off for good reasons!

What good reasons are those? I can't think of any.

You don't have to give your details if paying cash for fuel for an ICE car.

 

[reddragon]

What good reasons are those? I can't think of any.

You don't have to give your details if paying cash for fuel for an ICE car.

Instavolt and gridserve plus most new rapids use contactless cards so no app. There is nobody there to accept you cash!

So, you found a petrol station without ANPR / CCTV then?

Why would a service provider or sponsor not want to have control over some very expensive kit? How else do they manage the liability of some idiot playing with a charger? How else do they stop dumb-arses unplugging your charge leaving you stuck or stealing your cable?

This is the real world!

 

[trebor79]

Presumably a power switch would be too simple?

I suspect the truth is closer to "so they can harvest your details".

Yes, I think it would be too simple. Again, when I stopped a charge, it didn't just go "clunk" and turn off. It took a few seconds and the charging port in the car turned orange, so there was some comms going on between charger and car again. Also if it was just a switch you can guarantee certain people would enjoy turning them off so people came back to find their car hadn't charged!
I guess both ends need to be turned off to make it safe to unplug, amongst other things.
You also get useful data. In my case the chargepoint Scotland app tells me how much electricity I used and the mileage (I guess the car gave it that last piece of data).

Plus as alluded to above it provides some security against vandalism and misuse.

 

[37424]

What good reasons are those? I can't think of any.

You don't have to give your details if paying cash for fuel for an ICE car.

I don't particularly mind the apps just the fact I will end up with loads of them, you can see the state of charge and cost while away from the car and in theory stop the charge from the app although the Geniepoint charger seemed to ignore that.

 

[Bald Rick]

what area of the country? Personally, as much as I think them a good idea, I would not find any 'lamp postesque' on street parking where I live, just the big chargers in car parks.I just do not think they have been installed as of yet.

London and Hertfordshire for seeing them every day, but I see them all over the country.

 

[AM9]

I don't particularly mind the apps just the fact I will end up with loads of them, you can see the state of charge and cost while away from the car and in theory stop the charge from the app although the Geniepoint charger seemed to ignore that.

I would imagine that over the next few years whilst expansion of the networks is going flat out, there will be a few takeovers, amalgamations and commoning of both applications and control protocols. That will mean that the number of separate mobile applications and/or smart cards that users will need to carry will reduce. That would be quite a normal business shake-out for a new technology.
As far as lamp post chargers and other pavement borne facilities are concerned, rising demand will ensure that they are put into areas where they are needed. There's far too much business opportunity for providers not to.

 

[Roast Veg]

But that aside, I don't think that is any more of an issue than parking apps. I have 3 of them, and the only overhead of that is setting them up at the start. After that you just pick the one on the signs of the desired car park. There are basically no phones left on the market now where storage is so low that a few small apps would clog it up - most are now 64GB at least which is absolutely loads.

It's not as much as it sounds. Poorly optimised apps clock in at 125mb, so after operating system, caches, and personal files, you can only really expect to fit a couple of hundred. That's not hard to do when every man and his dog has an app...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not as much as it sounds. Poorly optimised apps clock in at 125mb, so after operating system, caches, and personal files, you can only really expect to fit a couple of hundred. That's not hard to do when every man and his dog has an app...

A couple of hundred? How many do you think you are going to need? There aren't a couple of hundred apps on my phone in total, let alone parking apps (which are comparable). I have three which cover all the car parks I ever use where that form of payment is used.

 

[ashkeba]

There are basically no phones left on the market now where storage is so low that a few small apps would clog it up - most are now 64GB at least which is absolutely loads.

Not all phones can use all storage for apps. I was surprised by a Huawei phone recently that had lots of photo/music storage and a big memory card but only a small app storagr.

The sooner EV chargers move to registered cards, it will be better. But chargers should be required to offer 3 pin for EBikes and scooters that can fast charge too else it is just another way EVs are being oversold.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree that public charging of e-bikes should be available and, due to the small amount of electricity involved, should be free in the manner that wi-fi and plugging your laptop in generally is.

 

[Factotum]

I cite Andy Burnham in his mayoral role of Greater Manchester as a prime example of letting political dogma over-ride the freedom of the individual.

One man's freedom is another man's prison

I would agree that public charging of e-bikes should be available and, due to the small amount of electricity involved, should be free in the manner that wi-fi and plugging your laptop in generally is.

If my e-bike is typical it takes several hours to recharge fully and has a range of no more than thirty miles.
So excellent for commuting - recharging at work - or going to the shops but rather inadequate for touring.
Given the recharge time public charging facilities would be of little use

 

[Roast Veg]

A couple of hundred? How many do you think you are going to need? There aren't a couple of hundred apps on my phone in total, let alone parking apps (which are comparable). I have three which cover all the car parks I ever use where that form of payment is used.

Even my central heating has an app. As does my broadband router. As do all of my banks (7 in all). As does my railcard, local PTE bus+train booking system, and preferred national rail booking system. As does my energy supplier. The NHS has two, my private GP has one. Most pubs and restaurants have different at-seat ordering apps (though admittedly I delete these asap). Including bloatware I have 113 apps, and not a single one is for electric car charging yet. I'm pretty ruthless with them!

We need to move away from "there's an app for that". Space is at more of a premium than we realise when companies churn out bloated applications containing a huge amount of the same software under the hood...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even my central heating has an app. As does my broadband router. As do all of my banks (7 in all). As does my railcard, local PTE bus+train booking system, and preferred national rail booking system. As does my energy supplier. The NHS has two, my private GP has one. Most pubs and restaurants have different at-seat ordering apps (though admittedly I delete these asap). Including bloatware I have 113 apps, and not a single one is for electric car charging yet. I'm pretty ruthless with them!

So you'll have about 116, then. Not exactly an issue.

We need to move away from "there's an app for that". Space is at more of a premium than we realise when companies churn out bloated applications containing a huge amount of the same software under the hood...

That is not a debate about electric cars but rather one about mobile phones. Most people don't consider it a problem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is not a debate about electric cars but rather one about mobile phones.

If you look at the title of this thread, it is specific to the subject of electric cars. Mobile phones are not referred to in the thread title.

 

[The Ham]

Including bloatware I have 113 apps, and not a single one is for electric car charging yet. I'm pretty ruthless with them!

You're not trying all that hard, I've got 70 and even then there's a few that I could manage without.

Although to be fair my phone only has 16gb of internal storage and is due being upgraded later this year after opening it for several years now (I think about 4 years). If I could upgrade the storage (and none of those 70 will move to an SD card so that's not going to help) then I'd buy some more storage, a new battery (30 seconds to change, as my phone has a removal back and battery) and keep going for another few years rather than buy a new phone (which I don't really need).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're not trying all that hard, I've got 70 and even then there's a few that I could manage without.

Although to be fair my phone only has 16gb of internal storage and is due being upgraded later this year after opening it for several years now (I think about 4 years). If I could upgrade the storage (and none of those 70 will move to an SD card so that's not going to help) then I'd buy some more storage, a new battery (30 seconds to change, as my phone has a removal back and battery) and keep going for another few years rather than buy a new phone (which I don't really need).

In reality the people who are going to pay the currently very high cost of an EV are going to be mostly people who have recent iPhones or premium Android devices, or won't mind buying one (for about £600 or less) given that they've just spent £30,000+ on the car. The time taken for EVs to be mainstream will also see massive increases in the storage of smartphones; you pretty much can't buy one as small as 16GB now.

This discussion is getting a bit like "can I charge my EV for cash" - the reality is that basically nobody in the market for an EV as things stand is going to have an issue with this. Or like "why doesn't the M6 Toll take cash" - anyone who has finances fragile enough that they don't have a debit card and/or don't wish to use one is simply not going to want to pay to use the M6 Toll when they can use other roads for free.

Cars and phones actually go together quite well here. The person who bought a petrol car this year and will keep it 10+ years and run it into the ground is not relevant to the EV market, and those are the same people who will eke out the life of a smartphone for 5-10 years. They can therefore essentially be ignored for now.

 

[ashkeba]

As far as lamp post chargers and other pavement borne facilities are concerned, rising demand will ensure that they are put into areas where they are needed. There's far too much business opportunity for providers not to.

Many UK local governments have moved lampposts from the kerb to the outside of the pavement over the last two decades because pavement drivers and parkers hitting lampposts costs them money directly on the budget, but drivers hitting their now-less-protected townspeople walking is a hidden cost. I thought this should have been a minor scandal when it happened, using people to protect posts, but nobody seemed to care.

So in those many areas, lampposts chargers are no better than wall chargers with cables to get across pavements. They will have to install charging bornes on the kerb, or move the lampposts back! At least walkers will be at less danger once again.

 

[The Ham]

In reality the people who are going to pay the currently very high cost of an EV are going to be mostly people who have recent iPhones or premium Android devices, or won't mind buying one (for about £600 or less) given that they've just spent £30,000+ on the car. The time taken for EVs to be mainstream will also see massive increases in the storage of smartphones; you pretty much can't buy one as small as 16GB now.

This discussion is getting a bit like "can I charge my EV for cash" - the reality is that basically nobody in the market for an EV as things stand is going to have an issue with this. Or like "why doesn't the M6 Toll take cash" - anyone who has finances fragile enough that they don't have a debit card and/or don't wish to use one is simply not going to want to pay to use the M6 Toll when they can use other roads for free.

Cars and phones actually go together quite well here. The person who bought a petrol car this year and will keep it 10+ years and run it into the ground is not relevant to the EV market, and those are the same people who will eke out the life of a smartphone for 5-10 years. They can therefore essentially be ignored for now.

I would be very tempted to get an EV and I suspect the the finances would work out fairly positive, however we often visit family driving 220 miles, often in the evening (arriving at 10pm) so are a bit cautious about doing so without a car which could comfortably be able to do it without needing to charge.

I could also afford a new phone much more often than I get one (and probably a better one than I do get), I don't to minimise my carbon footprint (in the same way that for about the last decade I've mostly walked, cycled or used rail for the vast majority of my commuting so as a household we only have one car, again even though we could probably afford to run two).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be very tempted to get an EV and I suspect the the finances would work out fairly positive, however we often visit family driving 220 miles, often in the evening (arriving at 10pm) so are a bit cautious about doing so without a car which could comfortably be able to do it without needing to charge.

Do you drive those 220 miles in one go without taking a decent break?

If so, please don't. An EV will make you safer for others on the road by forcing you to take that break.

220 miles is a long way. It's 20 miles further than Manchester to London by road. Nobody should drive that without at least half an hour's worth of breaks in there somewhere. And that's enough for a charge.

 

[reddragon]

In reality the people who are going to pay the currently very high cost of an EV are going to be mostly people who have recent iPhones or premium Android devices, or won't mind buying one (for about £600 or less) given that they've just spent £30,000+ on the car. The time taken for EVs to be mainstream will also see massive increases in the storage of smartphones; you pretty much can't buy one as small as 16GB now.

This discussion is getting a bit like "can I charge my EV for cash" - the reality is that basically nobody in the market for an EV as things stand is going to have an issue with this. Or like "why doesn't the M6 Toll take cash" - anyone who has finances fragile enough that they don't have a debit card and/or don't wish to use one is simply not going to want to pay to use the M6 Toll when they can use other roads for free.

Cars and phones actually go together quite well here. The person who bought a petrol car this year and will keep it 10+ years and run it into the ground is not relevant to the EV market, and those are the same people who will eke out the life of a smartphone for 5-10 years. They can therefore essentially be ignored for now.

Considering that you receive a salary, pension or any benefit you need a bank account, all adults must have a bank account with a debit card and those paranoid enough to only use cash and not have a modern mobile very small in number. Maybe the Queen doesn't have a debit card but I bet she doesn't put fuel in her Land Rover either!

True a portion of those buying EVs are tech savvy with money but many like me drove old bangers to their grave and switched just because an EV is cheaper to own than even an old banger for many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering that you receive a salary, pension or any benefit you need a bank account, all adults must have a bank account with a debit card and those paranoid enough to only use cash and not have a modern mobile very small in number. Maybe the Queen doesn't have a debit card but I bet she doesn't put fuel in her Land Rover either!

True a portion of those buying EVs are tech savvy with money but many like me drove old bangers to their grave and switched just because an EV is cheaper to own than even an old banger for many.

What's also of note is that anti-smartphone/anti-card people tend to be older, and a lot of them will, bluntly, die off before EVs are mainstream, so they are again not worth worrying about - they will drive ICE cars (likely the one they have already got) until they die/give up driving anyway.

 

[reddragon]

Do you drive those 220 miles in one go without taking a decent break?

If so, please don't. An EV will make you safer for others on the road by forcing you to take that break.

220 miles is a long way. It's 20 miles further than Manchester to London by road. Nobody should drive that without at least half an hour's worth of breaks in there somewhere. And that's enough for a charge.

The MG5, Hyundai Kona and Kia e-Niro can do that but of course if you had an accident after driving 200 miles you are in trouble for careless driving at least or indeed if your bladder didn't explode beforehand!

 

[Bald Rick]

In reality the people who are going to pay the currently very high cost of an EV are going to be mostly people who have recent iPhones or premium Android devices, or won't mind buying one (for about £600 or less) given that they've just spent £30,000+ on the car.

I‘d suggest that most people buying an EV will be spending £300-£400 a month on them, rather than dropping £30k up front….

 

[reddragon]

I‘d suggest that most people buying an EV will be spending £300-£400 a month on them, rather than dropping £30k up front….

I did the maths

Capital + fuel + tax + servicing + maintenance / repairs.

The EV won on PCP of course as I cannot afford the outright cost of a new car.

Simple maths on the cheapest car around. Fuel 1.25p/mile, servicing = half, tax = £0

 

[Bletchleyite]

I‘d suggest that most people buying an EV will be spending £300-£400 a month on them, rather than dropping £30k up front….

And the most common way to buy a smartphone is on a contract, paying monthly for it over a 24 month period. So the extra £10-20 a month is noise-level compared with £300-400 a month for the EV.

 

[Factotum]

220 miles is a long way. It's 20 miles further than Manchester to London by road. Nobody should drive that without at least half an hour's worth of breaks in there somewhere. And that's enough for a charge.

It is only three, max four hours, on a motorway. Hardly excessive, especially on a lightly trafficked motorway.
What is the maximum driving time that you consider safe?

 

[reddragon]

It is only three, max four hours, on a motorway. Hardly excessive, especially on a lightly trafficked motorway.
What is the maximum driving time that you consider safe?

HSE and Highway code guidance is 2 hours after which you could be considered to be driving without due care & attention.

3 hours btw would require you to also break the speed limit!

 

[skyhigh]

I think it's something to do with turning the charger on. They typically aren't "on" all the time, and in fact when you first plug in there is a bit if car to charger communication before the energy starts flowing. You also need to switch it off before you can remove the cable - both from a safety POV and because the cable is physically locked into the socket whilst charging.
This is from my very limited experience last week... Lots of free chargers courtesy of the Scottish government. You either need a £10 smart card or chargepoint Scotland app to turn them on and off.
I guess an app is the easiest way to do that. Although I think the government is encouraging all new.public charging points to accept contactles card payment too (the charge could be zero if hey are free to use).

Not quite. Home chargers don't need to be told to start/stop the charge - when you release the cable from the car end it safely disconnects the current. There is no real requirement for an app or a physical switch. Newmotion chargers at Aldi just work, for example.

 

[DustyBin]

I did the maths

Capital + fuel + tax + servicing + maintenance / repairs.

The EV won on PCP of course as I cannot afford the outright cost of a new car.

Simple maths on the cheapest car around. Fuel 1.25p/mile, servicing = half, tax = £0

View attachment 103481

That really does highlight what is for many the biggest obstacle to EV ownership, i.e. cost of the vehicle itself. £30k for an MG is an awful lot of money!

 

[reddragon]

That really does highlight what is for many the biggest obstacle to EV ownership, i.e. cost of the vehicle itself. £30k for an MG is an awful lot of money!

£249 a month
£12.50 a month for 1000 miles
£0 tax
£0 MOT for 3 years

Does your car cost that little to run? Really?