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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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GLC

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Indeed. But does it perhaps suggest that some of these features which are mandated in Europe are unnecessary?
It would suggest that Mitsubishi doesn’t see it as profitable to sell cars which meet those requirements. Given that Mitsubishi have less than 1% market share in Europe, i would say it is not a surprise. Why waste money adding more spec to cars that people were not buying anyway
 
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GLC

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They work on anything with an electric handbrake (another thing I hate but I suspect won't be able to avoid for much longer!).
Strictly speaking, you can have bill assist with a manual handbrake. My 2018 BMW was both manual gearbox and handbrake, and featured hill assist
 

trebor79

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I personally dislike auto-dip headlights because they don't respond quickly enough and so I get a brief period of blinding, and they don't dim/dip at all for a cyclist or pedestrian. I consider them dangerous as a result.
They also don't go to full beam again quickly enough for my liking, so you have a half second or so of driving into darkness, which I don't like.
The matrix headlights which are now coming to market seem to be a good solution, but I've not actually experienced them.

They work on anything with an electric handbrake (another thing I hate but I suspect won't be able to avoid for much longer!).
Hill start assistance is essential on anything with an electric handbrake!
 

DustyBin

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Strictly speaking, you can have bill assist with a manual handbrake. My 2018 BMW was both manual gearbox and handbrake, and featured hill assist

Yes we have it on all three of our (modern) cars which also have manual handbrakes. I can pull away far quicker and more smoothly without it though to be honest!

Hill start assistance is essential on anything with an electric handbrake!

I disabled it on my company 5 Series and it was fine; find biting point and release parking brake the same as with a manual handbrake. You do need to use the clutch to pull away smoothly however as the brake itself is obviously either off or on.
 

Bletchleyite

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They also don't go to full beam again quickly enough for my liking, so you have a half second or so of driving into darkness, which I don't like.
The matrix headlights which are now coming to market seem to be a good solution, but I've not actually experienced them.

I have from being the car in front and found them very distracting.
 

py_megapixel

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FWIW the first time I saw an animated turn indicator I hated it and thought it was distracting. Now I prefer it, as it gives a much more unambiguous indicator of what direction than just which general side of the vehicle the light is on.

(Not that the old way was actually especially ambiguous, but anything that reduces ambiguity on the road is good)
 

Ediswan

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I have from being the car in front and found them very distracting.
Please expand. I am genuinelly interested, not seeking an argument.

Disclosure. I have made no secret of my work in the lighting industry. When I left one job, the research project that was "absolutely don't mention this" was a prototype HID headlight. It required a substantial rack of electronics and lasted four minutes. I have maintained an interest.
 

Bletchleyite

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Please expand. I am genuinelly interested, not seeking an argument.

Disclosure. I have made no secret of my work in the lighting industry. When I left one job, the research project that was "absolutely don't mention this" was a prototype HID headlight. It required a substantial rack of electronics and lasted four minutes. I have maintained an interest.

I think in a way they were too effective - they did actually light "main beam" around the outline of my car without actually shining at it, which meant the light in front of me was bouncing around not in time with my car and I was getting the odd quite distracting flash in the wing mirror.

I think it might be something you'd get used to, and less noticeable if your own lights were LED (mine are classic tungsten halogen so fainter and more yellow). It felt odd because I'd not experienced it before.
 

miami

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My Kuga does as well and has a manual handbrake.

I wouldn't be surprised if modern cars with manual handbrakes are just manual handbrake switches for an electronic handbrake.

The first (hire) car I had with an electronic handbrake had a prominent "Microsoft" logo next to it. The car park at the hotel was steep. Needless to say I spent conscious effort to ensure my wheels were turned in a safe way and leave it in gear so if it failed it wouldn't go running across the car park.

The cynic in me tells me that all these driver aids are a way to free up attention in the future for the car owner to blast adverts at you -- like the ones in a New York taxi (I always Uber in NY since those started). After all we get adverts on the bus or underground and at stations and bus stops which barely impact the cost of a ticket, and no choice in the matter.

At least here in the country we don't get adverts when walking/cycling around
 

Bletchleyite

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I wouldn't be surprised if modern cars with manual handbrakes are just manual handbrake switches for an electronic handbrake.

In the Kuga's case it definitely is not. It is quite easy to tell, because if it's a genuinely manual handbrake you can control quite precisely and with feedback the level to which it is applied.

I would be incredibly surprised if there were many cars with that configuration as it would cost more.

The hill start assist in the Kuga's case seems to be applied by way of the footbrake circuit.
 

DustyBin

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In the Kuga's case it definitely is not. It is quite easy to tell, because if it's a genuinely manual handbrake you can control quite precisely and with feedback the level to which it is applied.

I would be incredibly surprised if there were many cars with that configuration as it would cost more.

The hill start assist in the Kuga's case seems to be applied by way of the footbrake circuit.

Correct (on all counts!).
 

Bletchleyite

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Should also add another feature of the Kuga which is that when bringing the clutch up without the accelerator pressed, a small amount of power is automatically applied so as to make a stall less likely, so it's fairly easy to do a hill start just using the pedals without doing heel-toe or having three feet. It is still possible to stall it as the 1.5 is not a very torquey engine until the turbo is spun up, but it does make things easier.
 

DustyBin

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Should also add another feature of the Kuga which is that when bringing the clutch up without the accelerator pressed, a small amount of power is automatically applied so as to make a stall less likely, so it's fairly easy to do a hill start just using the pedals without doing heel-toe or having three feet. It is still possible to stall it as the 1.5 is not a very torquey engine until the turbo is spun up, but it does make things easier.

I think that's fairly standard now, stall recovery is another common feature. To be honest most diesels aren't particularly torquey until the turbo spools up; I've had 2.0 Audis and BMWs that were exactly the same.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that's fairly standard now, stall recovery is another common feature.

The 2005 petrol Berlingo I had had that feature in some form, it was near-impossible to stall it. So very much not a new one.

Yes, I think the Kuga's engine is more typical of "car" diesels - it was just quite noticeable going from a 2.2Tdci (Transit engine) in a Land Rover Defender, which had enough torque to start out in 4th with just the clutch and basically required no clutch at all to start in 1st, to something more conventional! :)
 

ABB125

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The 2005 petrol Berlingo I had had that feature in some form, it was near-impossible to stall it. So very much not a new one.

Yes, I think the Kuga's engine is more typical of "car" diesels - it was just quite noticeable going from a 2.2Tdci (Transit engine) in a Land Rover Defender, which had enough torque to start out in 4th with just the clutch and basically required no clutch at all to start in 1st, to something more conventional! :)
Similarly, I learnt how to "physically" drive in a 20 year old Daihatsu Fourtrack in a "medium grade" off road setting. Since I was used to the torque offered by this engine (hill start would be fine with just the clutch in 1st), it was at first a bit difficult to actually apply a bit of additional power in order to not stall a "normal" car!
 

DustyBin

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The 2005 petrol Berlingo I had had that feature in some form, it was near-impossible to stall it. So very much not a new one.

Yes, I think the Kuga's engine is more typical of "car" diesels - it was just quite noticeable going from a 2.2Tdci (Transit engine) in a Land Rover Defender, which had enough torque to start out in 4th with just the clutch and basically required no clutch at all to start in 1st, to something more conventional! :)

Similarly, I learnt how to "physically" drive in a 20 year old Daihatsu Fourtrack in a "medium grade" off road setting. Since I was used to the torque offered by this engine (hill start would be fine with just the clutch in 1st), it was at first a bit difficult to actually apply a bit of additional power in order to not stall a "normal" car!

It's worth noting that both vehicles are particularly low geared as well which helps!
 

Roast Veg

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Similarly, I learnt how to "physically" drive in a 20 year old Daihatsu Fourtrack in a "medium grade" off road setting. Since I was used to the torque offered by this engine (hill start would be fine with just the clutch in 1st), it was at first a bit difficult to actually apply a bit of additional power in order to not stall a "normal" car!
I learned in a Diesel Golf and still forget when driving petrol to give it a bit of beans.
 

Bletchleyite

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yes even ' dirty ' sources of power then go on to power ' clean ' electric cars and so on

Worth noting that even if you power an electric car off a coal fired power station, its emissions of particulates in an urban area where they cause most harm (e.g. exascerbation of asthma) will still be close to zero (just brake and tyre particulates). Thus it is still worth doing.

There are essentially three types of pollution that are an issue - carbon emissions, NOx and particulates. It's still worth making a change if it only solves two out of the three in the short term.
 

AM9

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Worth noting that even if you power an electric car off a coal fired power station, its emissions of particulates in an urban area where they cause most harm (e.g. exascerbation of asthma) will still be close to zero (just brake and tyre particulates). Thus it is still worth doing.

There are essentially three types of pollution that are an issue - carbon emissions, NOx and particulates. It's still worth making a change if it only solves two out of the three in the short term.
And probably less brake dust on EVs.
 

paul1609

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Worth noting that even if you power an electric car off a coal fired power station, its emissions of particulates in an urban area where they cause most harm (e.g. exascerbation of asthma) will still be close to zero (just brake and tyre particulates). Thus it is still worth doing.

There are essentially three types of pollution that are an issue - carbon emissions, NOx and particulates. It's still worth making a change if it only solves two out of the three in the short term.
However transport as a whole is no longer the greatest emitter of particulate matter even in urban areas that crown goes to domestic heating. I understand that the biggest emitter of certain particulates is actually inkjet printers!
 

Bletchleyite

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However transport as a whole is no longer the greatest emitter of particulate matter even in urban areas that crown goes to domestic heating.

This of course doesn't matter. It is not a reason not to solve what is still a fairly large problem. Domestic heating will be looked at as well in due course, but because the solution doesn't just involve replacing boilers with something else it's a longer-term one to solve.

("X is a bigger problem" is a common non-sequitur used as an excuse not to solve a soluble problem because another more difficult problem is causing a greater issue)
 

Cowley

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Just a reminder of the original title of this thread:

'Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?'​

There’s not been much discussion around that recently!
Could we try and keep it vaguely on topic from here please?
If anyone wants to start threads about any of the other subjects that keep coming up then please do… :)

Thanks everyone.
 

Factotum

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PS I am not a millenial - I don't have to drink coffee at every possible moment!
Indeed. If I purchased an EV and followed the advice on this forum I would probably die of caffeine poisoning

I am also puzzled by the contention that maintenance on and EV is less than for an ICE.
In my experience, provided you keep them properly lubricated internal combustion engines run for 100,00 miles or more without needing repairs. Plus he occasional set of plugs
But what does fail re the electrical system: for example I have just spent £800 on anew "body control computer" for my daughter's 5 year old Skoda. What reason is there to believe that the traction electronics on an EV will be any more reliable than the electronics on an ICE?

I think that is overoptimistic. I have no intention whatsoever of giving up car ownership, even if there's a car club at the end of the street and my withdrawn local bus service was reinstated and upped to 10 buses per hour 18 hours a day and a half hourly night bus (which would be a financial basket case to the extent of making the Conwy Valley line look profitable). In my current location you would have to ban car ownership for me not to own one. I might use it less, though, and I might downsize it if I can easily get a large car or van from the car club on-spec.
I am the same. Whist I rarely use my car, preferring public transport and cycling, I wouldn't give it up. Whist it sits in the garage for most of the time when it is needed it is needed. Medical emergency in the small hours. Somebody stranded by the cancellation of the last train.
 
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trebor79

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Indeed. If I purchased an EV and followed the advice on this forum I would probably die of caffeine poisoning

I am also puzzled by the contention that maintenance on and EV is less than for an ICE.
In my experience, provided you keep them properly lubricated internal combustion engines run for 100,00 miles or more without needing repairs. Plus he occasional set of plugs
How much does the service cost on your ICE car? Few hundred at least. Some need cambelt changes every few years, £1,000 quid or more in some cases.
Tesla have no service schedule at all.
Friend just had his MG5 serviced at 10,000 miles. The bill was £30.
Brakes will last longer too.
 

The Ham

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Indeed. If I purchased an EV and followed the advice on this forum I would probably die of caffeine poisoning

I am also puzzled by the contention that maintenance on and EV is less than for an ICE.
In my experience, provided you keep them properly lubricated internal combustion engines run for 100,00 miles or more without needing repairs. Plus he occasional set of plugs
But what does fail re the electrical system: for example I have just spent £800 on anew "body control computer" for my daughter's 5 year old Skoda. What reason is there to believe that the traction electronics on an EV will be any more reliable than the electronics on an ICE?

Taking a break every few hours (even if you had a coffee, which you wouldn't have to do) would still only be 2 coffees for about 7 hours of driving (first break after 3 hours and then the second after 2 hours before arriving 2 hours after that, assuming 200 miles range and 80% charge at each break).

That's hardly going to give you caffeine poisoning.

For that sort of journey time there's a good chance you'd want to eat something. As such it's possible that you'd be down to just one coffee stop.

If the journey was another 2 hours longer, bringing it to 9 hours of driving, chances are people would want to eat twice during that time.

Even if you do that every week, the numbers of people who travel for more than 5 hours more than a couple of time a year is fairly small.

With regards to maintenance, EV's don't need oil in their engines, they don't need their spark plugs changed, they don't have cam belts which need changing, etc. It's why a service is needed fairly frequently.

Whilst EV's do need some maintenance, in comparison if someone did nothing other than change the brakes and tyres then they would likely keep going for 200,000 miles with little problem. Even if the battery was to degrade to 70% of the range, of the original range was 200 miles they would still be able to go 140 miles. Whilst not suitable for those doing high miles, there's plenty of cars which rarely go more than 50 miles and almost never go above 100 miles (certainly lots of second cars, those only used for the school run and/or just to/from work or those who are retired and only do local travel). As such even if the battery wasn't being replaced there would still be people willing to buy them.

Even if the range were to drop to 50% (which is a significant degrading of the battery) there would be some who would still buy it, as it was enough for them.

We get that you believe that EV's aren't suitable for you. However that doesn't mean that they aren't suitable, even with very degraded batteries, for a lot of other people.

Until my grandparents got rid of their cars they rarely, if ever, went more than 20 miles in them for quite a long time. Even before that 100 miles would have been suitable for 99.5% of their travel, even if they couldn't charge whilst out for the day (holidays were one set were typically abroad so only needed to get to the airport).

Whilst my parents would require a longer range for their UK holidays they don't like driving long distances without a break.

Whilst we have family 220 miles away, as long as we could have an EV with a range 280 miles we could be fairly sure we could get there without a break to charge. However with children there's a good chance we'd need to stop for food and/or a loo most trips anyway (even if we ignored that we should take a break every 2 to 3 hours anyway).

Even with that trip being done every 6 weeks, chances are without needing to fill up with fuel over the rest of the time the fact that we could keep it charged up at home would mean that overall we had more time as we wouldn't have to fill it up every few weeks.

Other family members would have similar requirements to us, although some who live between us and the rest of the family could get away with a 200 mile range car. Likewise there's second vehicles within the family where a 100 mile range car would be fine.
 

AM9

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... I am also puzzled by the contention that maintenance on and EV is less than for an ICE.
In my experience, provided you keep them properly lubricated internal combustion engines run for 100,00 miles or more without needing repairs. Plus he occasional set of plugs
But what does fail re the electrical system: for example I have just spent £800 on anew "body control computer" for my daughter's 5 year old Skoda. What reason is there to believe that the traction electronics on an EV will be any more reliable than the electronics on an ICE? ...

So is your assertion that auto-electronics frequently fail is based on the anecdotal evidence of a single incident after five years of use? If so, then think of how many owners make a point of telling everybody that they haven't experienced a major auto-electronics failure. It's just not interesting enough to drum up a conversation as the answer would almost certainly be "so what?".
Electronic modules in cars have always been expensive to replace because they usually last longer than the components used in them are in production, meaning that the manufacturer has to buy ahead enough spares to cover the number of replacements needed during the life of the model/range. They are also rarely the reason that a car is scrapped.
If they failed regularly, they would be much cheaper as there would be continued production of them. But if they failed more often, how do you think that would affect sales of that car?
Now translate that to the traction electronics of EVs. In electronic terms, pretty mundane engineering and given the volume, quite reliable. They've been controlling the motors in trains, boats and static machinery with electronics for decades, - you don't see RoSCos and ToCs demanding that new EMUs have camshaft or contactor controls now. What's more, the degree of protection that power electronics gives to the motors themselves improves their lives well beyond that of the '60s when burnouts weren't that rare.
 
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