Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Bletchleyite]

I thought there was a ruling years back which meant they were supposed to honour your warranty even if you used independent dealers?

There is. The requirement is simply that the servicing is done according to the service book requirements (do check this, as the likes of Kwik Fit often do a "standard" service which might miss things - for instance my Kuga requires a fuel filter change every 2 years which they won't do unless you point it out).

Sometimes extended warranties additionally stipulate a VAT registered garage rather than yourself or a back street spanner monkey, but it was considered anticompetitive to limit to the dealer network.

 

[stuu]

I thought there was a ruling years back which meant they were supposed to honour your warranty even if you used independent dealers?

Yes good point, that's true. They do insist that it is all done to schedule rather than just the basics which will be more expensive

 

[AM9]

I thought there was a ruling years back which meant they were supposed to honour your warranty even if you used independent dealers?

Isn't it 'authorised' maintenance operations rather than any fixer. My last car was a Mercedes A class which only went into an M-B main dealer once as I had a voucher there, - thereafter I used a local authorised garage that had M-B trained engineers, used M-B equipment where necessary and accessed and maintained the vehicle's M-B database record. Had there been a warranty issue it would have been verifiably an M-B issue to resolve it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't it 'authorised' maintenance operations rather than any fixer.

Typically "any VAT registered garage" is used as the measure, provided the service is completed as per spec and with correct parts. Though really even doing it yourself would be fine, though it'd be hard to prove you did, so going to a garage and getting a stamp and receipt is prudent.

My last car was a Mercedes A class which only went into an M-B main dealer once as I had a voucher there, - thereafter I used a local authorised garage that had M-B trained engineers, used M-B equipment where necessary and accessed and maintained the vehicle's M-B database record. Had there been a warranty issue it would have been verifiably an M-B issue to resolve it.

Clearly that would make the process easier, but they can't legally require it.

 

[Ediswan]

Find me an ICE that will last 400K miles without very expensive work, and price that up at BMW/Mercedes main dealer prices, and you have a comparison.

Australians seem to get truly impressive mileage out of some of their ICE vehicles without resorting to uneconomic repairs. However, that is not the norm. A quick search suggested that things tend to start to get expensive after 150,000 m (250,000 km). They do seem to refer to 'mileage' even though distances and speeds are in km.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Australians seem to get truly impressive mileage out of some of their ICE vehicles without resorting to uneconomic repairs. However, that is not the norm. A quick search suggested that things tend to start to get expensive after 150,000 m (250,000 km). They do seem to refer to 'mileage' even though distances and speeds are in km.

Part of that is probably because driving in a perfectly straight line at about 50mph is really easy on cars, plus in very dry conditions they don't rust. The UK is far, far harsher to cars than Oz. And, to be fair, those Japanese pickups are very well built and last longer than a typical family car to start with. There's a reason why those who like to wave AK47s round in the desert wouldn't drive anything else!

 

[AM9]

Part of that is probably because driving in a perfectly straight line at about 50mph is really easy on cars, plus in very dry conditions they don't rust. The UK is far, far harsher to cars than Oz. And, to be fair, those Japanese pickups are very well built and last longer than a typical family car to start with. There's a reason why those who like to wave AK47s round in the desert wouldn't drive anything else!

... and Aus drivers are more profligate with natural resources and tend to drive around in far bigger engines cars than is the norm here, thus there's even less stress on components.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Find me an ICE that will last 400K miles without very expensive work, and price that up at BMW/Mercedes main dealer prices, and you have a comparison.

No need for 'very expensive' work for a petrol/diesel car and definitely no need for BMW/Mercedes main dealer pricing either, if I wanted a car to last that long I certainly wouldn't be trusting it with a main dealer. You'd probably like the Car Throttle channel who delight in high mileage cars, they've had a couple of VW PD engine based cars that have made it to half a million miles without expensive work and had missed basic maintenance but still running well.

I'm not sure where this thread about electric cars being reliable comes from because a quick glance at reliability reports shows Japanese petrol cars at the top and Tesla around the bottom, the popularity of fitting lots of electronics to other electric vehicles meant they didn't fare so well either. My current car is Japanese and at 11 years old has had one fault with the stereo amplifier, ultimately it's likely rust and corrosion which will be the killer for it not the engine or anything related to it. It's almost entirely electronics that have been the cause of faults with previous cars or items non related to the engine like wiper motors which are the same on electric vehicles, going back a long time my Rover Metro's blown head gasket was the death of it but it was 15 years old and never let me down before that.

 

[A0wen]

Strange that Nissan LEAFs are making 200,000 miles & Teslas 400,000 miles with little more than tyres, wiper blades & washer bottle fills!

The electronics that fail most in ICE cars are due to heat, hot gases, dirt & liquids not present in an EV.

BIB - most Toyotas and Hondas rack up serious mileages without problems - in part because they tend to have chain cam rather than belt cam engines.

Every time I get a cab it seems to be a Prius with over 200,000 miles on and if you as the driver if he's had anybproblems the answer is no.

The reason ICE cars are seen as less reliable is generally down to poor engineering, which is less tolerant of poor maintenance, by mainly European manufacturers.

Find me an ICE that will last 400K miles without very expensive work, and price that up at BMW/Mercedes main dealer prices, and you have a comparison.

A Toyota - probably a Prius, Corolla or Land Cruiser. And Toyota dealers in my experience are among the cheaper of the main dealers.

 

[DustyBin]

... and Aus drivers are more profligate with natural resources and tend to drive around in far bigger engines cars than is the norm here, thus there's even less stress on components.

True; the popular domestically built family cars (and taxis!) were the Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon until production of both ceased relatively recently. Truly tank-like things with large 6 or 8 cylinder engines and not a whole lot of technology in them.

 

[reddragon]

For anyone who doubts that an EV including mining by children is better than oil

This lawyer should be world-famous for his battle with Chevron – but he’s in jail | Erin Brockovich

Chevron is accused of polluting the Amazon for 26 years. The only people who’ve paid the price are a human rights lawyer and those whose land was poisoned

www.theguardian.com

Chevron is accused of polluting the Amazon for 26 years. The only people who’ve paid the price are a human rights lawyer and those whose land was poisoned

So the OPs argument is less relevant than this issue!

 

[miklcct]

Charging is still my main blocker to use an EV.

It is impossible to charge an EV given my use case is to drive to rural areas to do orienteering races on weekends. Also I live an apartment as well.

Once the charging problem is solved, I will buy a car to drive it everywhere instead of using trains and buses which, at best, run only half-hourly that the waiting time frequently exceeded the journey time, given the unsatisfactory service and high fares compared to Asian countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is impossible to charge an EV given my use case is to drive to rural areas to do orienteering races on weekends. Also I live an apartment as well.

Do you not have any public chargers near you? Do you never go to the supermarket, for example? A weekly supermarket shop will be an ideal time for many users to charge up, a shop typically takes between 30 minutes and an hour which will get most EVs to 80%.

 

[AM9]

Charging is still my main blocker to use an EV.

It is impossible to charge an EV given my use case is to drive to rural areas to do orienteering races on weekends. Also I live an apartment as well.

Once the charging problem is solved, I will buy a car to drive it everywhere instead of using trains and buses which, at best, run only half-hourly that the waiting time frequently exceeded the journey time, given the unsatisfactory service and high fares compared to Asian countries.

That might work in leafy Bournemouth, but if you drive anywhere more like a city, or even a popular 'rural area' that has a tourist profile, you may find even EV travel restrictive.

 

[reddragon]

If you stay local, true you can be unlucky enough to live in a charger black hole, they still exist.

I cannot think of anywhere in the UK or much of Europe where you are not far from a rapid. Galicia comes to mind due to a silly rule they have stopping new chargers being switched on!

 

[jon0844]

Charging is still my main blocker to use an EV.

It is impossible to charge an EV given my use case is to drive to rural areas to do orienteering races on weekends. Also I live an apartment as well.

Once the charging problem is solved, I will buy a car to drive it everywhere instead of using trains and buses which, at best, run only half-hourly that the waiting time frequently exceeded the journey time, given the unsatisfactory service and high fares compared to Asian countries.

If it really is impractical, hold on to what you have or lease a very cheap, highly efficient, petrol car for a few years. The charging infrastructure rollout seems to be accelerating (businesses seeing opportunities to make money) and EVs will get cheaper.

I have no doubt by 2024/2025 the situation will be massively different.

Meanwhile, does your apartment come with any off-road parking (communal parking)? If so, maybe approach the management company to ask if they would consider installing charging facilities. It would be wise for them to look into this, as more and more residents get EVs. Almost certainly they wouldn't need to be rapid chargers, so it probably wouldn't cost a fortune to install.

 

[Mawkie]

Meanwhile, does your apartment come with any off-road parking (communal parking)? If so, maybe approach the management company to ask if they would consider installing charging facilities. It would be wise for them to look into this, as more and more residents get EVs

I approached my Management Company for my (Share of Freehold) property and they got 3 quotes for charging infrastructure installation.

Unfortunately, at the moment, the terms were quite onerous and rather opaque - a 25 year contract(!), £12 monthly subscription for each user (property owner) to access the charging unit, and an electricity unit rate of £0.28 for 7kw chargers.

The questions the Management Company were left with could be divided between those things in their control and those things out of their control.

Our head lease does not provide for allocated parking spaces - so the MC couldn't technically "exclude" ICE residents from parking in the charging bays. Apparently the head lease is expensive and time consuming to alter.

The MC didn't want to commit to a 25 year contract during the 'early adoption' stage of electric car conversion.

Different (lower) charging prices were offered for residents if the MC allowed access to the chargers to non residents - however there was no way of knowing if we would be overwhelmed with non residents, and no mention of how to change the terms of the contract if we were.

It was not clear how upgrades to the charging units would be paid for or how often - was that the MC responsibility or the supplier.

It wasn't clear who oversaw the electricity unit price - there were insufficient assurances within the contract terms.

It wasn't clear how the monthly fee was calculated or regulated - could the £12 suddenly increase.

It wasn't clear how quickly the provider would deal with physically broken units, offline occurrences, and so on - would we be left with unusable charging units for extended (or even indefinite) periods.

All in all, I had to agree that the MC were correct to advise using an abundance of caution and their recommendation was to wait until this side of the supply market levelled out; there were just too many unknowns and they had no confidence in the suppliers. Of course, no issue is insurmountable but I'm sure there are similar questions being asked up and down the country by Management Companies.

 

[jon0844]

That's very interesting to hear, and I guess it's still too early to properly invest. Once EVs are the majority of cars, which may happen before 2030, I suppose the maths might be a little better.

 

[DelW]

Do you not have any public chargers near you? Do you never go to the supermarket, for example? A weekly supermarket shop will be an ideal time for many users to charge up, a shop typically takes between 30 minutes and an hour which will get most EVs to 80%.

That depends on what chargers they have available. I have only two large supermarkets within easy distance, one has no chargers, the other (Sainsbury's) has ten, although only eight have been working for quite a while. These are all Pod-point 7kW chargers, so even an hour's shopping would only give you at best around 20 - 25 miles of range. Worth having (as they're free to use) but not practical as an alternative to home charging. Of course the infrastructure is developing all the time, but rapid chargers are still relatively rare at supermarkets.

Over £5000 per 100,000miles is more than I have ever paid to keep an ICE

£500 per 10,000 miles is pretty good going IMHO, unless you are doing the servicing yourself. You certainly aren't going to be able to use main dealers for that sort of money, which you often need to for the warranty

I kept full records for my last car, a Focus diesel bought new and sold at 131,800 miles. All servicing was done by the main dealer who'd supplied it (mainly because they were located very close to where I worked), tyres came from Kwik-fit, light bulbs from Halfords, and the total cost of servicing, minor repairs, tyres, MoT tests etc. was £5329.52, which is £404.38 per 10,000 miles. Admittedly I was fortunate that it was very reliable and needed only four minor repairs (three of which had external causes), so I spent little beyond the expected routine costs.

 

[AM9]

I approached my Management Company for my (Share of Freehold) property and they got 3 quotes for charging infrastructure installation.

Unfortunately, at the moment, the terms were quite onerous and rather opaque - a 25 year contract(!), £12 monthly subscription for each user (property owner) to access the charging unit, and an electricity unit rate of £0.28 for 7kw chargers.

The questions the Management Company were left with could be divided between those things in their control and those things out of their control.

Our head lease does not provide for allocated parking spaces - so the MC couldn't technically "exclude" ICE residents from parking in the charging bays. Apparently the head lease is expensive and time consuming to alter.

The MC didn't want to commit to a 25 year contract during the 'early adoption' stage of electric car conversion.

Different (lower) charging prices were offered for residents if the MC allowed access to the chargers to non residents - however there was no way of knowing if we would be overwhelmed with non residents, and no mention of how to change the terms of the contract if we were.

It was not clear how upgrades to the charging units would be paid for or how often - was that the MC responsibility or the supplier.

It wasn't clear who oversaw the electricity unit price - there were insufficient assurances within the contract terms.

It wasn't clear how the monthly fee was calculated or regulated - could the £12 suddenly increase.

It wasn't clear how quickly the provider would deal with physically broken units, offline occurrences, and so on - would we be left with unusable charging units for extended (or even indefinite) periods.

All in all, I had to agree that the MC were correct to advise using an abundance of caution and their recommendation was to wait until this side of the supply market levelled out; there were just too many unknowns and they had no confidence in the suppliers. Of course, no issue is insurmountable but I'm sure there are similar questions being asked up and down the country by Management Companies.

It looks like the issue has been a guarded response because they wanted to put something out there when asked. I would imagine that the shape of such contracts will eveolve as a greater proportion of residents get EVs, and the actual level of risk becomes known.
Having said that, a charge of 28p per kWH isn't bad as the current capped rate is about 20p and after the April rise, it will be just over 30p. So on the face of it, it is cheaper than a self-installed charger for use on resident's land fed from a capped installation.

 

[Mawkie]

It looks like the issue has been a guarded response because they wanted to put something out there when asked. I would imagine that the shape of such contracts will eveolve as a greater proportion of residents get EVs, and the actual level of risk becomes known.

Agreed.

Having said that, a charge of 28p per kWH isn't bad as the current capped rate is about 20p and after the April rise, it will be just over 30p. So on the face of it, it is cheaper than a self-installed charger for use on resident's land fed from a capped installation.

Plus £12 a month of course, and no info on how/when price rises could occur so I didn't do the maths as it wasn't going to happen anyway.

However, with ranges on cars now up to 250+miles per charge, I could potentially be charging just twice a month and adding £6 to each charge may make it more affordable to charge off site?

I 'only' do 100 miles a week (this does not include 7.5 weeks annual leave, when I rarely drive) and spend around £13-15 a week on unleaded (I acknowledge this doesn't represent the whole costs of ownership). My next car will definitely be a BEV though, even if there are no chargers at home.

To answer the original question - for me, electric cars haven't been oversold to the detriment of other modes of transport. I view my car as part of a range of options available to me based on time and distance - I am a walker, cyclist, bus user, train user, and tube user!

 

[AM9]

Agreed.

Plus £12 a month of course, and no info on how/when price rises could occur so I didn't do the maths as it wasn't going to happen anyway.

However, with ranges on cars now up to 250+miles per charge, I could potentially be charging just twice a month and adding £6 to each charge may make it more affordable to charge off site?

I 'only' do 100 miles a week (this does not include 7.5 weeks annual leave, when I rarely drive) and spend around £13-15 a week on unleaded (I acknowledge this doesn't represent the whole costs of ownership). My next car will definitely be a BEV though, even if there are no chargers at home.

To answer the original question - for me, electric cars haven't been oversold to the detriment of other modes of transport. I view my car as part of a range of options available to me based on time and distance - I am a walker, cyclist, bus user, train user, and tube user!

As regards the £12 per month charge, well, that plays against the cost of a basic 7kW charging installation currently costing about £600-800. Then there's maintenance which although low will accumulate as the equipment gets older. So the cost that is being proposed by your landlord isn't really unreasonable.
Of course your typical usage might not really benefit from such an arrangement, but that would be just as incompatible with an installation that you paid for outright. I would however, expect the rules around the basis on which any rises in the energy price or the monthly cost to be clarified, and the proposers are probably expecting demands for that anyway.

 

[miami]

I 'only' do 100 miles a week (this does not include 7.5 weeks annual leave, when I rarely drive) and spend around £13-15 a week on unleaded (I acknowledge this doesn't represent the whole costs of ownership). My next car will definitely be a BEV though, even if there are no chargers at home.

100 miles a week, say 20 miles a night, even at 500Wh/mile, will charge from the socket you plug your lawnmower in 5 hours. I don't see any need for some fancy charging in your case.

 

[jon0844]

That depends on what chargers they have available. I have only two large supermarkets within easy distance, one has no chargers, the other (Sainsbury's) has ten, although only eight have been working for quite a while. These are all Pod-point 7kW chargers, so even an hour's shopping would only give you at best around 20 - 25 miles of range. Worth having (as they're free to use) but not practical as an alternative to home charging. Of course the infrastructure is developing all the time, but rapid chargers are still relatively rare at supermarkets.


I kept full records for my last car, a Focus diesel bought new and sold at 131,800 miles. All servicing was done by the main dealer who'd supplied it (mainly because they were located very close to where I worked), tyres came from Kwik-fit, light bulbs from Halfords, and the total cost of servicing, minor repairs, tyres, MoT tests etc. was £5329.52, which is £404.38 per 10,000 miles. Admittedly I was fortunate that it was very reliable and needed only four minor repairs (three of which had external causes), so I spent little beyond the expected routine costs.

I've also been lucky with most cars, and had total nightmares with others. The cars with the issues were performance cars, often heavily modified. That said, I had a diesel Mondeo that had loads of problems - although I was told it was almost certainly down to contaminated fuel, something I could never establish as to who was to blame (I heard of issues at a local petrol station, but how the hell do you prove weeks after the fact?).

Anyway, if people are going to do comparisons like this.. there's another consideration. Let's assume that many relatively basic cars are also cheap to maintain (certainly servicing will be less in most cases, and you'll probably go through tyres and brakes more slowly) - which is great, but what if you want a higher spec car with all the bells and whistles? Some decent performance, automatic this, that and the other.

All things that I'd wager to say that currently most EVs will have pretty much as standard. That's part of the problem when it comes to searching out a cheap EV!

If you therefore compare a pretty high-end, top-spec vehicle versus the 'basic' EV perhaps the cost differences narrow even more.

 

[JohnMcL7]

All things that I'd wager to say that currently most EVs will have pretty much as standard. That's part of the problem when it comes to searching out a cheap EV!

That isn't true, the higher cost of electric cars comes from the batteries and is pretty much unavoidable looking at list price but per month is more complicated since petrol/diesel cars have higher running costs.

For example, if you read or watch any Skoda Enyaq iV review it does appear as you say with quite a generous spec but if you have a look at the configurator you'll find many of those features are not just optional extras on the base spec but on the higher specs as well. Comparing like for like against the Kodiaq the two are quite similar spec wise but the Enyaq iV is more expensive as you'd expect given the battery cost.

 

[Roast Veg]

For example, if you read or watch any Skoda Enyaq iV review it does appear as you say with quite a generous spec but if you have a look at the configurator you'll find many of those features are not just optional extras on the base spec but on the higher specs as well. Comparing like for like against the Kodiaq the two are quite similar spec wise but the Enyaq iV is more expensive as you'd expect given the battery cost.

The enyaq is very poorly priced at low spec, which I find very surprising since they ought to be trying to draw in custom with low headline prices. I'd wager the "cost" differential is down to an attempt to pay off the retooling at Skoda factories asap rather than battery price alone

 

[jon0844]

That isn't true, the higher cost of electric cars comes from the batteries and is pretty much unavoidable looking at list price but per month is more complicated since petrol/diesel cars have higher running costs.

For example, if you read or watch any Skoda Enyaq iV review it does appear as you say with quite a generous spec but if you have a look at the configurator you'll find many of those features are not just optional extras on the base spec but on the higher specs as well. Comparing like for like against the Kodiaq the two are quite similar spec wise but the Enyaq iV is more expensive as you'd expect given the battery cost.

That's why I said EVs are perhaps no good for those wanting a cheap one - yet. With all the issues of battery anxiety, people are now being offered high-spec models with large batteries for range. That's fine and a good thing for most people, unless you really want a car that might only do 10-20 miles per day and whereby the break even point will be, literally, miles away! And, yes, you could perhaps argue for cycling or even a bus, but I want a car! If I do cycle one day, that's a saving on petrol but I still want the car available. I could perhaps even use taxis every day, but I don't like the 'will it turn up or won't it' anxiety every time.

I am waiting for more smaller and affordable EVs to become available, with a more moderate range (but fast charging so you can still do a long drive without long waits each charge) and lower prices (£15-20k). For a car that I wouldn't be driving that much, do I need all the tech? Perhaps not. Give me Android Auto, auto lights and a reversing camera (now a requirement) and that'll do me. Auto wipers, adaptive cruise etc are all great for long journeys, but I want a cheap car that will do less than 5k a year - maybe nearer 2-3k! I am sure I'm not alone.

Hence why I've leased a petrol car until 2024* and will see what the Chinese have offered us by then (rumours suggest we might have a sub-£15k car this year or next) and how the incumbents will seek to compete with them. Plus there's the increased choice of second hand EV options to look at also, where I might get a car with a degraded battery that will still be ample for my requirements and give me loads of tech anyway.

* At the time, the cheapest EV lease was £100 per month more. So that's £1200 a year, which for the mileage just doesn't add up - it's impossible to make the savings on electric vs petrol, even if petrol goes up loads more. Next time around, I'd hope to see an EV being about the same, or only a little more, and then it will be a no-brainer.

 

[reddragon]

Today the EV is attractive to someone with a drive to charge on cheap rates and who does some decent miles each year.

For me at 10-12, 000 miles a year it was cheaper than my old bangers of days gone and I couldn't afford to own a petrol / diesel car any more.

Low mileage drivers or those without cheap charging availability will not financially gain for a few years yet.

 

[miklcct]

Today the EV is attractive to someone with a drive to charge on cheap rates and who does some decent miles each year.

For me at 10-12, 000 miles a year it was cheaper than my old bangers of days gone and I couldn't afford to own a petrol / diesel car any more.

Low mileage drivers or those without cheap charging availability will not financially gain for a few years yet.

I predict my travel to be 30000 km / year but the charging problem is really putting me off, and I'm now paying off-peak train fares for most of my journeys!

 

[JohnMcL7]

That's why I said EVs are perhaps no good for those wanting a cheap one - yet. With all the issues of battery anxiety, people are now being offered high-spec models with large batteries for range. That's fine and a good thing for most people, unless you really want a car that might only do 10-20 miles per day and whereby the break even point will be, literally, miles away! And, yes, you could perhaps argue for cycling or even a bus, but I want a car! If I do cycle one day, that's a saving on petrol but I still want the car available. I could perhaps even use taxis every day, but I don't like the 'will it turn up or won't it' anxiety every time.

Batteries are always going to be a significant cost even as you go up to more expensive cars, my point was when comparing like for like with petrol/diesel to electric cars you're not getting better spec for the money on the electric cars so the spec isn't distorting the price comparison.

You don't have to ditch your car if you cycle and that's partially the point being made in this thread with the focus on electric cars which are not viable for many whereas reducing car usage is much more easily achievable and has much larger gains than changing to electric cars since it's not just greener but also improves congestion, parking and the many other problems electric cars have just the same as petrol/diesel. Around ten years ago I had a diesel car ill suited to short trips so I decided to get into cycling the short trips instead and although that car is long gone and I have a more flexible petrol engine, most of my travel is now handled by bike. It's very green, the running costs are next to nothing, it's radically improved my health and fitness, doesn't cause congestion, take up parking space etc. really one of the best actions I've taken in my life. The car is useful for large loads and long distance (trains are unfortunately laughably bad for bikes these days) but it doesn't make any sense to spend a huge chunk of money on an electric even if there was one that met my requirements, which there isn't.