Have I found a loophole, or am I pushing my luck?

[rwebster]

Afternoon all,

I've recently moved house, and looking at options for my daily commute to work I've stumbled upon what I believe to be a glitch on East Coast's booking site (which I normally use) - albeit a glitch that could potentially save me substantial amounts of money (almost 50% of the cost of a monthly season ticket).

If someone would like to PM me I'll happily supply exact details of the journey, but to avoid giving the game away I won't post it here. I will however say that its a two-stop journey from a Zone 5 station to the first station outside Greater London on the same line. Just looking at return fares (with 16-25 Railcard discount selected) the booking engine is giving me a £2 super-off-peak return (which I believe should only be available at weekends), and I'm able to go right through to payment even once I've selected specific trains during weekday peak hours.

The question is, if I can get the booking engine to give me an itinary, let me book these and print it all off as I travel, am I pushing my luck if I meet an RPI given that this really blatantly shouldn't be valid? Is just saying 'look, East Coast said its ok and here's the print out to prove it' OK?

Many thanks if anyone can help!

 

[tony_mac]

It's not something that I would want to do every day.

The ticket isn't valid, and hence there is a potential issue with penalty fares etc. From anecdotal evidence, it seems that having a seat reservation generally makes life easier, printed itineraries tend to get ignored.

The fact that it is sold to you as valid does complicate matters, and you would expect eastcoast to be responsible for what they sell. However, I wonder if the fact that you know it is obviously a mistake might cause you some problems.

There is no guarantee that it won't cause you some significant headaches - let's hope you don't get arrested for hacking the website

 

[Lrd]

Afternoon all,

I've recently moved house, and looking at options for my daily commute to work I've stumbled upon what I believe to be a glitch on East Coast's booking site (which I normally use) - albeit a glitch that could potentially save me substantial amounts of money (almost 50% of the cost of a monthly season ticket).

If someone would like to PM me I'll happily supply exact details of the journey, but to avoid giving the game away I won't post it here. I will however say that its a two-stop journey from a Zone 5 station to the first station outside Greater London on the same line. Just looking at return fares (with 16-25 Railcard discount selected) the booking engine is giving me a £2 super-off-peak return (which I believe should only be available at weekends), and I'm able to go right through to payment even once I've selected specific trains during weekday peak hours.

The question is, if I can get the booking engine to give me an itinary, let me book these and print it all off as I travel, am I pushing my luck if I meet an RPI given that this really blatantly shouldn't be valid? Is just saying 'look, East Coast said its ok and here's the print out to prove it' OK?

Many thanks if anyone can help!

You need to make one more post to be able to send/receive PM's.

 

[cuccir]

Have you checked the validity code of the super off-peak return? If you're travelling away from London the peak period is often shorter than for journeys towards London, so it may just be that it's valid at those times.

To do so, look-up the journey at National Rail Enquiries at a time when the super off-peak return will definitely be a valid option. Scroll down the page and, in the blue summary box titled 'Tickets', click on the 'Super off-peak return' link. Scroll to the bottom of this page, where you will find the validity code and the restriction for this ticket. You'll then be able to confirm for sure whether the ticket should be valid.

 

[IanD]

Are you sure you're not looking at a weekday which is a bank holiday monday?

 

[SussexMan]

The ticket isn't valid....

The fact that it is sold to you as valid ...

So they are selling a ticket that isn't valid as a valid ticket....? Presumably you can't say that it isn't valid without knowing the exact details so why do you say it isn't valid?

...you know it is obviously a mistake ...

So now, customers have to decide whether the ticket is a mistake or not. Some Advance Tickets are excellent value for money - perhaps they are mistakes as well?

...let's hope you don't get arrested for hacking the website

And what has the OP done which could possibly be called hacking?

 

[tony_mac]

So they are selling a ticket that isn't valid as a valid ticket....? Presumably you can't say that it isn't valid without knowing the exact details so why do you say it isn't valid?

I assumed that it isn't actually valid only because he said he believed it wasn't valid, I obviously have no more information than that. If that assumption is incorrect, then the rest can obviously be ignored.

So now, customers have to decide whether the ticket is a mistake or not. Some Advance Tickets are excellent value for money - perhaps they are mistakes as well?

This is nothing new; 'mistakes' have long been a possible issue with contracts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistake_(contract_law)

And what has the OP done which could possibly be called hacking?

I assume nothing, that was really just a joke (hence the little smiley face).
'Hacking', however, is a possible accusation that could be made if you are travelling with an itinerary that obviously shouldn't match the ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

This has possible similarities with a Merseyrail promotional fare of £2 that did for a few Sundays for any return journey on Merseyrail. However, it appeared in the ATOS booking system as a fare valid on the Northern Rail Chester-Stockport-Southport Sunday service and I've noted in the updated list of easements that a Chester-Southport ticket is now not valid via Manchester even on a direct train.

 

[yorkie]

My advice remains unchanged from previous threads (which I won't go into detail again) and that is if you book a journey then you should expect it to be honoured, but if you think it is not valid, make enquiries and establish it is not, then that puts you in a difficult position. (However I have known people who asked if a booking would be honoured, the answer was yes but we will fix it, so not much use for more than one journey!)

 

[tony_mac]

My advice remains unchanged from previous threads (which I won't go into detail again) and that is if you book a journey then you should expect it to be honoured

Of course you should, but I wouldn't want to be doing it everyday in lieu of a season ticket.
In particular, if you get told one day that it is a mistake on the website and isn't valid - what happens if the same person sees you the following day?

 

[323235]

This has possible similarities with a Merseyrail promotional fare of £2 that did for a few Sundays for any return journey on Merseyrail. However, it appeared in the ATOS booking system as a fare valid on the Northern Rail Chester-Stockport-Southport Sunday service and I've noted in the updated list of easements that a Chester-Southport ticket is now not valid via Manchester even on a direct train.

But doesn't the very fact that it is a direct train mean that easements are irrelevant. The routing guide instructions themselves state that you do not need to consult it if you are travelling on an advertised through train.

We all know that price does not automatically determine validity and as long as it remains Any Permitted then I personally believe that it is valid on a direct service via Manchester.

 

[yorkie]

Of course you should, but I wouldn't want to be doing it everyday in lieu of a season ticket.

Absolutely.

In particular, if you get told one day that it is a mistake on the website and isn't valid - what happens if the same person sees you the following day?

I would expect the conversation on the first day would end up with the passenger being required to contact Customer Services, and once it was established several tickets were bought they may insist that the tickets are cancelled/refunded. Not that I am saying I would agree with that, but it could be a possibility. If the passenger then refused to do that, then I would seek legal advice at that stage because then it becomes a potential legal dispute that we would be out of our depth advising on.

It was reported on Railchat that someone had a Season that, I believe, was valid, but the ticket inspector was going to arrange for RPIs to meet that person and accuse them of having an invalid ticket. As the details of the train were not made public there is no way to warn that person and give them assistance. I don't know what happened in that case. Proving that ticket's validity would be difficult and would depend on interpretations of the Fares Check Rule.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If whatever exotic anomaly you have found is an error, and you know it is an error because you have written or oral confirmation that it is an error, and then you deliberately attempt to take advantage of a Train Operator's error (or their industry supplier's error - that would be our French friends I believe), then (perhaps unlike general consumer legislation which is widely discussed elsewhere) you may be accused of an attempt at a Fraud. No reasonable person would ever want to put themselves in such a position.

But if that chain of 'if's don't apply to you, and it is a bargain price, either intended or un-intended, and it is freely sold by the website of the company whose train you will be travelling on, then your printed itinery should be enouigh to permit you to travel (though you run the risk of a challenge and delay in the process if £2 is so remarkably extraordinary for that journey).

As tony_mac points out, the situation may change after your first challenge - the situation may switch from you not knowing that it is an error to being told that it is an error. Then you move from being the innocent beneficiary of an error to a possible fraudster!

In between those extremes, there's a range of possible outcomes, and they leave you open to protracted disputes. I can confirm that the legal position you might find yourself in is unlikely to have a precedent to clarify the situation, and while I would feel confident that a printed itinery is valuable evidence, it does not assure you of trouble free travel, and less so on repeated journeys after a challenge.

Having said all that, I remain un-convinced (through want of knowledge) that your 'discovery' is indeed an unintended bargain. Perhaps one day you will be able to reveal the detail, either by PM or publically.

 

[OwlMan]

I think it may be Brimsdown to Cheshunt (as in a previous post he had a new job in Cheshunt). I can see no problem on ECs website with the implementation of restrictions (there are no outward jouirneys in the morning peak). Of course once September comes any journey before 10 am will not be valid for railcard discou8nt.

Peter

 

[yorkie]

The ticket appears to be a ticket that is of a type Super Off Peak Day Return. The saving is only 45p.

If it was me booking it, I'd assume it was valid. The advertised restriction is woolly and does not state when exactly it is valid. It appears to be applying the restrictions that TOCs such as SWT set for their Super Off Peak Day Returns. However I am guessing the TOC concerned has a different idea of when Super Off Peak is for the tickets that they price.

Looking at all the T&Cs there is nothing to suggest it may not be valid, the ticket is heavily restricted, the saving is only 45p compared to a much more flexible ticket.

It may be a mistake - but to know that you'd need to have detailed knowledge of the policy of the TOC that sets the fare for the flow! Given that it's not my area, and Super Off Peak conditions vary by the individual flow concerned, I would simply trust what the booking engine offered and would have no reason to believe it may be an anomaly/mistake.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it may be Brimsdown to Cheshunt

This is not the exact example the OP gave me, but it may as well be as it's the same principle.

According to National Rail the ticket name "Off Peak Day" describes when you can travel, and all conditions are the same across all Companies.

I think the OP may be familiar with FCC's "Off Peak Day" restrictions, which is only valid at weekends, and may mistakenly believe that the statement on the "simple tickets" page is correct, so may believe that Greater Anglia share this policy.

According to this page, "they can be used between two designated stations during Super Off-Peak hours Monday to Friday or at any time during weekends and bank holidays, on the date shown on the ticket", it then goes on to define the times, which match the times that the tickets are sold.

So, in fact, it is not a loophole at all. The tickets are entirely correct and intended to be valid on weekdays.

But there is no way for anyone to know this without looking up what the restrictions are and what is intended, and having knowledge of which TOC sets the fare! A "normal" passenger cannot be expected to know this!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....the booking engine is giving me a £2 super-off-peak return (which I believe should only be available at weekends), and I'm able to go right through to payment even once I've selected specific trains during weekday peak hours....

It's not a weekend only ticket and it is correct that it is being offered on weekdays.

There is no evening peak restriction on this ticket as the journey is towards London which is 'contra peak' and no restriction applies.

The booking engine correctly offers this at the times it is meant to be valid, as far as I can determine.

 

[Oscar]

FCC's Super Off-Peak Day Returns (not Off-Peak Day Returns) are only valid at weekends and Bank Holidays. Greater Anglia used to have the same policy until last May. There are however unfortunately many errors in Greater Anglia's fares which were introduced at the time of this change. Only some of the errors have already been corrected but I expect that to change with NFM 13.

 

[Bidstonboy]

I think East Coast's booking site should be regarded as dubious. I too booked a ticket with them, a super off peak return from Chelmsford to Southminster leaving on a 10.30 ish departure, all times were on the itinery. When I collected the tickets at the office I was told the ticket isn't valid until after 12.00 and there were signs up all over the concourse saying so too. It appears to me East Coast's site just lists all the fares, and gives you a timetable enquiry too.
Another thing to bear in mind is that Super off peak tickets don't always go through the barrier machines so you will have to show your ticket to the barrier bert too.

 

[yorkie]

I think East Coast's booking site should be regarded as dubious. I too booked a ticket with them, a super off peak return from Chelmsford to Southminster leaving on a 10.30 ish departure, all times were on the itinery. When I collected the tickets at the office I was told the ticket isn't valid until after 12.00 and there were signs up all over the concourse saying so too. It appears to me East Coast's site just lists all the fares, and gives you a timetable enquiry too.
Another thing to bear in mind is that Super off peak tickets don't always go through the barrier machines so you will have to show your ticket to the barrier bert too.

Welcome to the forum.

I've just looked this up and the first train it offers is 1209, so that error has been corrected.

As you had evidence of a contract, I trust you were allowed to travel, rather than charged an excess fare?

 

[Bidstonboy]

Welcome to the forum.

I've just looked this up and the first train it offers is 1209, so that error has been corrected.

As you had evidence of a contract, I trust you were allowed to travel, rather than charged an excess fare?

Thanks Yorkie. I have been reading the posts for a while now and it looks like a good site.

On the day I was hungover so wasn't fit for an arguement, I went for a breakfast and the hair of the dog in a beer garden as it was sunny, then came back for the 12.09, as you correctly pointed out, this was the first valid train.

 

[yorkie]

In that case I'd write to the Company asking for an apology and delay compensation, as appropriate (assuming you held the itinerary with you and they refused to honour it?).

Also if a ticket is not valid due to a time restriction then they must offer you the choice of either charging an excess fare (the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare, e.g. the cost of an Off Peak Day Return) or travelling at a valid time. Did they not offer to excess the ticket?

 

[Bidstonboy]

In that case I'd write to the Company asking for an apology and delay compensation, as appropriate (assuming you held the itinerary with you and they refused to honour it?).

Also if a ticket is not valid due to a time restriction then they must offer you the choice of either charging an excess fare (the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare, e.g. the cost of an Off Peak Day Return) or travelling at a valid time. Did they not offer to excess the ticket?

It was at the end of June, so I'm not 100% sure if I was offered an excess, but I think I was. Now I have joined the forum I shall fight for my rights more in the future, but I look back at the incident as a bit of a blessing as I found a good pub under Chelmsford Station railway arches with good views of the passing trains from the garden area. I'm glad I was on a day out rather than in a hurry though.

 

[rwebster]

Thanks everyone for your comments so far.

Given that the advice so far means I'd be having a slightly nervous trip to work in case of a visit from an RPI (though in my experience, thats extradorinarily rare on Greater Anglia!) and so I wouldn't want to risk it every day, I figure there's no harm in revealing the journey - Southbury to the delightfully named Theobalds Grove.

I'd be taking the 08.48 from Southbury in the morning and probably returning on the 17.42 from Theobalds Grove. I now realise the Super-Off-Peak is valid weekdays (GA's restrictions have been all over the place of late), but as far as I interpret the restrictions on GA's website, it shouldn't be valid on trains that leave London before 12.00. Furthermore, I clearly shouldn't be able to get Railcard discount before 10.00 either. I've tried this on GA's website and National Rail as well as East Coast (using weekday dates deep into October), and all are happy to offer the £2 return - as far as I can tell, the cheapest fare I should be able to buy for my journey is the £3.90 undiscounted anytime day return - thus the saving would actually be quite significant.

 

[yorkie]

The Railcard discount is fully available with no minimum fare in July & August and only applies September-June (inclusive).

The East Coast website would not sell these tickets before 1200 when I looked. If another site is selling them then the itinerary should be enough to show an RPI to avoid the RPI carrying out the usual action which would be to charge an excess fare (of course a Penalty Fare cannot be charged for a time restricted ticket being used at a barred time), though the RPI could be concerned if he/she believed you were using incorrect tickets on a daily basis, it is unclear what the procedure would be.

You could ask the vendor, after having purchased your tickets, questions such as "does your site sell valid tickets?" and "will bookings made through your site be honoured?" they may then apologise for selling invalid tickets and refund you or they may promise to honour the tickets. Obviously it is more straightforward if the TOC you use and the website you use are the same Company.

 

[tony_mac]

I tried it on eastcoast for 5th September - it is offering the £2 fare on any train in the morning - including the railcard discount.

National Rail appears to have no restriction information for this ticket (which may be related to it appearing to be unrestricted!).

 

[yorkie]

Ah, it's broken from September. A search for August shows the correct restrictions applied. But from September it is shown as valid at any time.

 

[OwlMan]

Probably because the fare no longer exists in NFM 13 and should not be available for dates after 1 September.

The manual - NFM 13
SOUTHBURY 6947 - THEOBALDS GROVE 6949
THEOBALDS GROVE 6949

AGA
(S/R)
FDS S 5.00
FDR R 9.50
SDS S 3.10
SDR R 3.90
CDR B1 R 3.70
7DS R 20.10
7DF R 32.20


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