Have Northern Upped Their Game?

[Swanley 59]

As a commuter in the North East I still don’t feel there’s many good things to say about Northern.

They are starting from a very low base in the North East, but, as I said upthread, there are signs of improvement in some areas.

Today's commute was a LNER 801/Northern 156 out and 2 x Northern 158s home. Every train was on time, and the units were all smartly turned out. However, the 158 journeys were marred by the unholy racket from under the floor; they were so bad that the 156 was refined by comparison.

Minor improvements notwithstanding, I'll confess I've cast envious eyes at fellow Northern travellers who have to put up with the shortcomings of classes 195, 331 and even 319. They don't they're born in some parts of Northern land.

 

[Trackman]

I was at Bolton was last week for the first time in ages.
I was approached by a young lady who had boarded the wrong train at Picc who wanted to go to Patricroft. I explained it was easily done to board the wrong train and to head back to Manchester.
I advised her to visit the customer services office nearby as keen ticket staff were on the bridge before the ticket gates to check tickets if heading to the Manchester platform and to have the ticket endorsed.
Anyway she emerged and thanked me for my help and informed me they had booked a taxi for her from Bolton!
Well, this was going the extra mile customer service wise especially for Northern; I was gobsmacked!
I just like to add she was prim and proper and in no distress at all. I wonder happened in that office? Anyway a big thumbs up to Northern!

 

[MattRat]

As a commuter in the North East I still don’t feel there’s many good things to say about Northern. We’re still having to make do with the cast offs from the rest of the rail network. 32 year old 156s, poor journey times compared to the car, last minute cancellations, expensive tickets, depressing run-down stations etc. Some serious investment is needed in this part of the world to improve the entire railway - services, stations and trains. The fact the north east is practically its own self contained rail network has meant it has suffered over many decades from being the lowest priority area in the lowest priority franchise.

Trust me, the North West isn't much better. It's only really Manchester that gets any funding.

 

[driverd]

As a commuter in the North East I still don’t feel there’s many good things to say about Northern. We’re still having to make do with the cast offs from the rest of the rail network. 32 year old 156s, poor journey times compared to the car, last minute cancellations, expensive tickets, depressing run-down stations etc. Some serious investment is needed in this part of the world to improve the entire railway - services, stations and trains. The fact the north east is practically its own self contained rail network has meant it has suffered over many decades from being the lowest priority area in the lowest priority franchise.

As essentially a rural railway in many places (Bishop Auckland/Saltburn/Whitby) the service delivered is broadly on par with that in Bristol/the South West and much of Scotland.

Arguably, the refurbishment of the 158s puts them on a par with the 195s. Obviously as a diesel network, comparison with the 331s isn't really appropriate, but they're essentially a 195, just quieter. As a user of both, I'd certainly not opt for a 319 over a 156, although of course, that's just my opinion.

Is engine noise the main gripe? Surely the units are clean and freshly kitted out?

 

[Swanley 59]

Is engine noise the main gripe? Surely the units are clean and freshly kitted out?

For me, it is definitely the infernal racket under the floor that lets Northern's diesel units down. The 158s are worse than the 156s in this respect, invariably defeating the best efforts of my noise cancelling headphones to restore a measure of calm.

But I will concede that the refurbished 158s look splendid, and they still ride as well as ever.

 

[Mat17]

158s are fairly quiet when compared to 150s going full tilt with the windows open... Now that's noisy.

 

[driverd]

It does surprise me they haven't ordered more bi mode trains like the 769.

My suspicion is the 769 order was a bit of "let's see how this goes" type speculation.

The current performance of the fleet speaks volumes.

 

[plugwash]

It does surprise me they haven't ordered more bi mode trains like the 769.

The 769 program has been a disaster by any reasonable criteria. The trains entered service years late and have not been especially reliable since introduction. If it had delieverd reliable trains on the original timescale then I can imagine there would have been a bunch of follow up orders. As it is I imagine after the 769 and 230 that those ordering trains will be very skeptical of conversion programs.

I do consider it great shame that northerns (and even more so TFWs) new trains were not ordered as bi-modes, though I can understand that at the time bi-modes were just starting to become a thing.

 

[Starmill]

As it is I imagine after the 769 and 230 that those ordering trains will be very skeptical of conversion programs.

You might think so to see some of the mess that's been created, but there are two freight conversions of 1980s EMUs, three electro-diesel passenger conversions, three 'D Train' passenger conversions with three rather different technical specifications, and some upcoming hydrogen conversions.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern have also been very slow to restore a full post-pandemic service on a number of lines. I doubt users of the Leeds-Lancaster and Leeds-Carlisle lines will have much positive to say about them

Yes, that has been a big issue. Those services were also ditched during the strikes and seem to be the first to be abandoned. The missing 10:19 Leeds to Lancaster is a particular running sore for me.

On the other hand, the Hope Valley stopper always seems to be a double 150 or a 3 carriage 195 nowadays, so the days of trying to cram everyone on successive Merseyrail Pacers are fortunately confined to the cess pool of history.

 

[Stephen1001]

Made several journeys on Northern in Lancashire, Merseyside and Greater Manchester in the last week or two (first time since 2019, barring a short hop on a 156 up the Aire Valley earlier last month). Got a seat every time, never delayed by more than two minutes, trains always clean. Perhaps I was just lucky, and yes the 150s and 156s are showing their age a little now, but all round a marked improvement on previous visits.

 

[Prestonrail]

I have been a big critic of Northern in recent years, but my recent experiences with then have been excellent!

In the past month I must have caught 30+ Northern trains, peak, off peak and late at night, all on time or close enough and no cancellations.

My journeys have been across the network on both sides of the Pennines and the trains have been clean tidy and well presented. On every Northern journey the guard has been visible and conscientiously and politely checked tickets on every train. Can’t believe that this is the same operator and staff as pre-pandemic.


A big thumbs up from me!

As for EMR Regional and TfW well….!

Well ,passengers are to blame for mess.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well ,passengers are to blame for mess.

And Northern are to blame for not cleaning it up effectively.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well ,passengers are to blame for mess.

They are, but as this is a known thing TOCs really do need to provide to clean it up, like Avanti do with the on board cleaners.

 

[johnnychips]

I did all the lines in South Yorkshire today and took eleven Northern trains. Mostly busy, mostly clean, tickets checked on nine. Only one was six minutes late, and the guard went up and down the train to let passengers know ‘the engine is struggling but I think we’ll get there’.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well, they could have ordered class 755 units......

Stadler didn't even bid for the contract, did they?

 

[gazzaa2]

It's a bit better with the new rolling stock and the pacers out of commission. Capacity is always going to be inadequate though given the size of the cities they serve and they're the main commuter route to get people into Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool etc.

The trains i've used have been on time which is the main thing you can ask from a TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stadler didn't even bid for the contract, did they?

Northern didn't spec bimodes anyway.

It's a bit better with the new rolling stock and the pacers out of commission. Capacity is always going to be inadequate though given the size of the cities they serve and they're the main commuter route to get people into Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool etc.

The trains i've used have been on time which is the main thing you can ask from a TOC.

There is no real need for capacity to be inadequate, though, as the constraint is mostly just rolling stock, not lots of infrastructure issues as in the South East.

 

[plugwash]

You can make trains longer to a point, but it doesn't take that long before you start running in to platform length issues. Nothern are already using selective door operation in places.

You also have the age old problem on the railways that trains tend to fill up at the city end (or the middle for cross-city routes) and be relatively empty at the country end of their routes, wasting a bunch of capacity. Some London routes try to solve this by having trains that are "all stops to X and then fast to London" or by having trains that split off a portion at an intermediate stations but those creates it's own issues.

 

[Jozhua]

My experience has been broadly positive recently - I did a bit of exploring before moving back to the Midlands and found trips on 195s and 331s generally very pleasant. The 150 stuff was okay, at the very least on time.

Last trip was Nottingham to Sheffield on a 195. It was busy both ways, but I got a seat and it was still pretty comfortable/quiet. I do reckon they'll need to order more of them, 2 carriages just doesn't cut it on a lot of the routes they run.

 

[yorksrob]

You can make trains longer to a point, but it doesn't take that long before you start running in to platform length issues. Nothern are already using selective door operation in places.

You also have the age old problem on the railways that trains tend to fill up at the city end (or the middle for cross-city routes) and be relatively empty at the country end of their routes, wasting a bunch of capacity. Some London routes try to solve this by having trains that are "all stops to X and then fast to London" or by having trains that split off a portion at an intermediate stations but those creates it's own issues.

I would have thought that that problem would have been more prevalent in the South East where services typically end on the coast or the countryside, rather than the North where local services often run between two cities.

 

[Llandudno]

I would have thought that that problem would have been more prevalent in the South East where services typically end on the coast or the countryside, rather than the North where local services often run between two cities.

Which means of course empty trains in the contra peak direction in the south east, whereas in the north trains are rammed in both directions such as Liverpool-Manchester, Leeds-Manchester, Sheffield-Leeds, Sheffield-Manchester etc.

 

[WesternBiker]

I’m just back from a long weekend travelling round Wigan, Bolton, Manchester. Generally reliable (nothing more than 3 minutes late) and a ticket check on every service, though I’m conscious it was all off peak.

It included my first trip on a 796 (Wigan Wallgate - Bolton). I wasn’t terribly impressed at the performance on diesel - I understood they were supposed to match a 150, in terms of acceleration, but it was almost painfully slow. (The return trip was a pair of 150s.)

 

[Peter A]

Myself and two friends travelled from Darlington to Saltburn over the summer, the first time using the line since pre-pandemic/when Pacers were used regularly. Both of my friends (who are not as savvy about the railway as myself) commented firstly on how cheap the tickets were - £5.60 return with the 16-25 railcard - which one friend noted was cheaper than the bus from Barnard Castle to Darlington they had just travelled on. The second thing they commented on was how luxurious the train was that turned up compared to the previous Pacer offering, noting it was very impressive for northern. I pointed out that it was a refurbished 158 and not brand new which surprised them, highlighting the quality of the refurb. The only thing they did note was that we seemed to be going quite slow, but it ran to time nonetheless - perhaps altering paths that were previously used by the slower pacers is something which needs looking at.

While northern does still have room for improvement you can't argue that, in cases like the Bishop - Saltburn line, the improved fleet makes a world of difference. I think my friends won't be alone in mistaking Northern's refurbished fleet for new trains which certainly helps to improve public perception.

 

[Anvil1984]

Myself and two friends travelled from Darlington to Saltburn over the summer, the first time using the line since pre-pandemic/when Pacers were used regularly. Both of my friends (who are not as savvy about the railway as myself) commented firstly on how cheap the tickets were - £5.60 return with the 16-25 railcard - which one friend noted was cheaper than the bus from Barnard Castle to Darlington they had just travelled on. The second thing they commented on was how luxurious the train was that turned up compared to the previous Pacer offering, noting it was very impressive for northern. I pointed out that it was a refurbished 158 and not brand new which surprised them, highlighting the quality of the refurb. The only thing they did note was that we seemed to be going quite slow, but it ran to time nonetheless - perhaps altering paths that were previously used by the slower pacers is something which needs looking at.

While northern does still have room for improvement you can't argue that, in cases like the Bishop - Saltburn line, the improved fleet makes a world of difference. I think my friends won't be alone in mistaking Northern's refurbished fleet for new trains which certainly helps to improve public perception.

The reason you were going slow is the linespeed not the timings / paths.

The maximum linespeed for the line is 60 mph with a 30 mph for a section just after Dinsdale around the curve, 30 again just after Allens West reducing to 25 on the approach to Eaglescliffe, slow approach into Thornaby (45 before the ex Bowesfield box, 35 from Tees Bridge, 20 into the station) then a longish 45 from Newport Bridge into Boro.

 

[DorkingMain]

Therefore, TfWs failure to provide for their customers when the 2312 isn't available.

To the uninitiated, welcome to the privatised railway!

Privatised in name only when it's the Welsh government-run TfW buck passing with the DfT / OLR-run Northern.

 

[driverd]

Privatised in name only when it's the Welsh government-run TfW buck passing with the DfT / OLR-run Northern.

Well, quite! Unfortunately the structures haven't changed just yet, which in my opinion, need some major re-working to truly benefit the customer. Inertia from the privatised system will take a while to be moved on, I suspect, considering there's still hints of the BR attitude knocking around head offices and mess rooms the nation over...

 

[Starmill]

There is no real need for capacity to be inadequate, though, as the constraint is mostly just rolling stock, not lots of infrastructure issues as in the South East.

Northern have been due to receive fifteen two car class 156 units from East Midlands Railway for many months. A complex chain of events which you're probably familiar with means this has been delayed. Once this transfer is complete, and if the entire fleet of 185s remains, Northern and TransPennine Express will probably not have a genuine shortage.

 

[Swanley 59]

Something quite remarkable happened this week. For the first time in over 30 years of commuting, on and off, not a single train (out of twenty) was so much as a minute late.

This remarkable display of punctuality consisted of five LNER services (Morpeth - Newcastle) and fifteen Northern services (5 Newcastle - Sunderland, 5 Sunderland - Newcastle and 5 Newcastle - Morpeth). Twice the Sunderland - Newcastle trains were sufficiently early for me to make a connection that should have been impossible by the timetable.

And while not strictly on topic, I can't believe how I've managed without the LNER app until now.

 

[BurtonM]

I live in Stalybridge and I've increasingly been getting the train again - I use Northern services as I often take a bicycle into Manchester and can't commit to a specific train (thanks TPE).
Trains are generally punctual, I've had no issues there, but the Stalybridge-Manchester Victoria shuttle hasn't been reimplemented yet so there's only 1tph to Victoria, vice a half hourly service, and sometimes it's a single 150 which can be cramped - I think theres a timetable change on the horizon but it's far too late coming.

No issues with staff but I think it's a bit odd that you never staff passing through the train want to check tickets or just sell them...
The uniforms do look a bit like something from a kids TV show.

Publicity of some services to be run by RRBs is pretty bad - it's buried deep in Northern's website and is inherently difficult to find, and if you do find it it's usually a copy of an internal document, that's a dense table full of abbreviations like so and sx but without a key to them. Trying to feed back to Northern about this is pointless, they seem to be of the opinion of 'the information is there, we told you, we won't do any more'.

Anyone who thinks the 150 refurbs are of reasonable quality is mental IMO, low quality paint and a terrible choice of colour that easily scuffs and scratches and lazily done with minimal prep work - seats with loose bases, missing screws and loose interior trim painted over and ignored, badly masked off windows with overspray on them, carpet falling off the walls, etc. They just yanked the seats out, went in with a compressor and some cheap paint, threw everything back together and called it 'refurbishment'. It didn't even need doing IMO.
There was also the farce with the seat moquette - another red flag they were cheaping out.
Don't get me started on the livery as this isn't the place.

I think it's just business as usual at Northern. They do some daft and questionable stuff, revenue is dire, there's loads of room for improvement across the board, and everything feels cheap, but at the end of the day it more or less works.