Have Northern Upped Their Game?

[johnnychips]

No issues with staff but I think it's a bit odd that you never staff passing through the train want to check tickets or just sell them...
The uniforms do look a bit like something from a kids TV show

It is strange how things are different over the Pennines. I get at least ten Northern services a week, and get my Travelmaster for South Yorkshire checked at least 80% of the time.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Northern are generally much better than before however they have an annoying habit of only replying to selective tweets and copying/pasting the same generic reply a lot of the time.

Over the summer I commuted from Heaton Chapel to Manchester by train, the same as I used to do from 2015-2017. Pre-2017, the 07:15 from HTC was a rammed 2-car diesel with no air-conditioning and questionable heating. Nowadays, it's a smooth and modern 6-car electric most if not all of whose functions actually worked. So that's a several hundred percent improvement for a start!

The return from Manchester to Heaton Chapel was mainly a 769, I'd say 4 out of 5 days a week, however I believe that the diagram has since temporarily reverted to being booked 2-car. Not a good look.

The pathetic Sunday service at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme (not too bad out of Manchester) needs severely looking at and acting upon by December. This is, however, not COVID-related; it started back around 2018.

 

[HBP]

Credit where credits due I do feel Northern have upped their game.
I’ve done 19 separate journeys so far this month on the £1 ticket Flash Sale offer and in all cases the trains have been clean, tickets checked on all and on many day services cleaning staff have joined the train at some point in the journey. Most of the services have run on time and I’ve had only 1 delay of a cancelled train and they issued a free travel ticket within 4 days of claiming. All in all really quite impressed.

 

[47434]

I have used Northern quite a bit of late. Trains have been on time and spotlessly clean. Very impressed.

 

[AGH]

Big fat no based on today. Liverpool to Crewe 20 minutes late this morning through Castlefield and no driver turned up tonight for the Chester leg of the Connect service leaving from Victoria. Yes I know other issues may well have caused it but what sets you aside is how you handle it. Northern and customer service have always been strange bedfellows and on that point nothing has changed. Don't get me started on the staff at Oxford Road.

 

[Purple Orange]

Big fat no based on today. Liverpool to Crewe 20 minutes late this morning through Castlefield and no driver turned up tonight for the Chester leg of the Connect service leaving from Victoria. Yes I know other issues may well have caused it but what sets you aside is how you handle it. Northern and customer service have always been strange bedfellows and on that point nothing has changed. Don't get me started on the staff at Oxford Road.

There was a trespasser on the line this morning. Apart from that, I’d say no, northern have not upped their game. Scheduling 2-car DMUs on peak evening services through Castlefield is not good enough. Fine at quieter times of the day, but not rush hour.

 

[Greybeard33]

I’d say no, northern have not upped their game. Scheduling 2-car DMUs on peak evening services through Castlefield is not good enough. Fine at quieter times of the day, but not rush hour.

Alderley Edge - Southport - Alderley Edge is a five hour circuit and so five trains are needed to operate the hourly service, each of which crosses Manchester in one direction or the other in either the morning or evening peak, or both.

All five were planned to be 4-car 769s from last May, but the chronic unreliability of these units has forced Northern to substitute 2-car 150s, robbed from other routes, on two of the diagrams.

Northern cannot magic additional trains out of thin air. Are you suggesting they should "up their game" by robbing more units from other people's services in order to make your commute more comfortable?

You can console yourself that the 150 at least gets you home on time, rather than having a 769 that might break down earlier in the day and so not turn up at all!

 

[Purple Orange]

Alderley Edge - Southport - Alderley Edge is a five hour circuit and so five trains are needed to operate the hourly service, each of which crosses Manchester in one direction or the other in either the morning or evening peak, or both.

All five were planned to be 4-car 769s from last May, but the chronic unreliability of these units has forced Northern to substitute 2-car 150s, robbed from other routes, on two of the diagrams.

Northern cannot magic additional trains out of thin air. Are you suggesting they should "up their game" by robbing more units from other people's services in order to make your commute more comfortable?

You can console yourself that the 150 at least gets you home on time, rather than having a 769 that might break down earlier in the day and so not turn up at all!

The claim of “at least it was not cancelled” doesn’t counter the issue raised. It’s still a problem that needs resolving and it is perfectly valid to say the situation is not good enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The claim of “at least it was not cancelled” doesn’t counter the issue raised. It’s still a problem that needs resolving and it is perfectly valid to say the situation is not good enough.

It's not just that cramming into a 2-car is uncomfortable. The time taken to do so causes delay and because it's Castlefield ripples across the North as usual.

 

[Greybeard33]

The claim of “at least it was not cancelled” doesn’t counter the issue raised. It’s still a problem that needs resolving and it is perfectly valid to say the situation is not good enough.

But Northern Trains can only play the cards it was dealt. It inherited the 769s from the predecessor TOC, Arriva Rail North. The DfT foisted these bi-modes on ARN in lieu of postponed electrification schemes. The only other 769 operator, TfW, is experiencing even worse availability.

Unless you can suggest a way to fix the 769s, or instantly obtain replacement trains, the only way Northern can "resolve" your "problem" is to redeploy DMUs from other services on the Northern network. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

It's not just that cramming into a 2-car is uncomfortable. The time taken to do so causes delay and because it's Castlefield ripples across the North as usual.

RTT shows that 150137, working the 1615 Southport to Alderley Edge, departed Oxford Road and Piccadilly RT this evening.

 

[Purple Orange]

But Northern Trains can only play the cards it was dealt. It inherited the 769s from the predecessor TOC, Arriva Rail North. The DfT foisted these bi-modes on ARN in lieu of postponed electrification schemes. The only other 769 operator, TfW, is experiencing even worse availability.

Unless you can suggest a way to fix the 769s, or instantly obtain replacement trains, the only way Northern can "resolve" your "problem" is to redeploy DMUs from other services on the Northern network. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.


RTT shows that 150137, working the 1615 Southport to Alderley Edge, departed Oxford Road and Piccadilly RT this evening.

Real time trains is showing a 2-car train is planned for the service running at 17:38 from Piccadilly. A peak train, one of the busiest the route will see all day.

However it doesn’t matter from the passenger perspective what hand Northern has been dealt and it’s not my job, as a passenger, to say what the solution should be. I expect the rail industry to find the solution (whether that responsibility rests with Northern, NR, DfT is irrelevant). Listing excuses doesn’t change the fact that a particular situation is not good enough.

 

[daodao]

Real time trains is showing a 2-car train is planned for the service running at 17:38 from Piccadilly. A peak train, one of the busiest the route will see all day.

However it doesn’t matter from the passenger perspective what hand Northern has been dealt and it’s not my job, as a passenger, to say what the solution should be. I expect the rail industry to find the solution (whether that responsibility rests with Northern, NR, DfT is irrelevant). Listing excuses doesn’t change the fact that a particular situation is not good enough.

The proposed option B+ curtails the Southport to Alderley Edge service at Oxford Road. In future, passengers travelling further south will need to use an alternative service. If you are unhappy with this current Northern service, there are plenty of alternative services from Manchester to Wilmslow, as it is served by 2 other TOCs in addition to Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

But Northern Trains can only play the cards it was dealt. It inherited the 769s from the predecessor TOC, Arriva Rail North. The DfT foisted these bi-modes on ARN in lieu of postponed electrification schemes. The only other 769 operator, TfW, is experiencing even worse availability.

Unless you can suggest a way to fix the 769s, or instantly obtain replacement trains, the only way Northern can "resolve" your "problem" is to redeploy DMUs from other services on the Northern network. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.


RTT shows that 150137, working the 1615 Southport to Alderley Edge, departed Oxford Road and Piccadilly RT this evening.

Strengthen the 150's with surplus 153's.

 

[Purple Orange]

The proposed option B+ curtails the Southport to Alderley Edge service at Oxford Road. In future, passengers travelling further south will need to use an alternative service. If you are unhappy with this current Northern service, there are plenty of alternative services from Manchester to Wilmslow, as it is served by 2 other TOCs in addition to Northern.

And that day cant come soon enough. It was a far more reliable service back when everything ran in to the terminus playforms. Running diesel on that line is not a situation we should be settling for either.

But yes, I am aware that two other TOCs serve Wilmslow, but one of those isn't that great either, running a service that is barely any faster than a stopper and is often short formed too. However that is beside the issue of the fact that Northern aren't pulling up trees concerning their own performance.

 

[Roose]

A dozen or more journeys on several routes over the last month or so saw tickets checked on every train and all arrivals on time.

Things appear to be a lot better.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Seems like the old west vs east parallel is as strong as ever; eastern passengers being fairly satisfied and Northern seemingly providing a decent service on that side of the network (I include myself in this, I've had no problems with Northern since I've started using the trains again, trains generally run and are on time plus are fairly clean and the staff generally seem to make an effort to be visible to passengers) whereas they still seem to be struggling in the west and passengers there still seem to find them sub-par (from my personal experience staff visibility has improved in the north west over the past couple of months compared to how it was pre-pandemic but still not as good as it is in the east).

All in all, I think they've improved since their dark days of 2018-19.

 

[Llandudno]

Seems like the old west vs east parallel is as strong as ever; eastern passengers being fairly satisfied and Northern seemingly providing a decent service on that side of the network (I include myself in this, I've had no problems with Northern since I've started using the trains again, trains generally run and are on time plus are fairly clean and the staff generally seem to make an effort to be visible to passengers) whereas they still seem to be struggling in the west and passengers there still seem to find them sub-par (from my personal experience staff visibility has improved in the north west over the past couple of months compared to how it was pre-pandemic but still not as good as it is in the east).

All in all, I think they've improved since their dark days of 2018-19.

Had a chat with a personable guard on a Nottingham-Leeds train recently and he told me that Northern guards are more visible on board trains as they get commission for every ticket they scan on board the train.

He told me that he had earned an extra £28 commission in one week just for scanning tickets.

 

[IanXC]

Strengthen the 150's with surplus 153's.

Can't be the direct solution as 153s are not cleared through Wigan Wallgate.

Perhaps putting a 153 with a 150 2 car in place of the 3 car 150s, and use 3 car 150s on Southport - Alderley Edge? I think thats what used to work those services?

Beyond that there are of course 156s from East Midlands Railway awaited.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think thats what used to work those services?

I don't think you're correct there.

Several years ago, there was no Alderley-Southport. The Alderley services terminated in the main shed at Piccadilly, and it was extremely rare for anything other than a 323 to appear. The Southport services went to Victoria.

May 2018 saw the extension of these terminating services through Castlefield to Wigan, and they became an excellent example of the so-called "random unit generator" effect. It was generally 4 cars, sometimes short-formed to 2 - pretty much any combination of 142, 150 and 156 could be used, and it was very rare to get 4 carriages which were all the same inside and out considering Northern's piecemeal refurbishment programme with different units in different stages of refurb. At some point later they extended through to Southport, but not much changed with the rolling stock.

The random unit generator became a little less random as the refurb programme concluded, and the Pacers were withdrawn - it settled down into usually being either 150+142 or 150+150 (150s of course being mostly refurbished ones by that point). This was until the last of the 142s went, at which point it became almost entirely 150s in a mixture of 2- and 4-car formations (with the occasional 156 appearance). This is how it stayed until the 769s came.

It is expected that things will shortly come full circle, and the Alderley Edge section will go back to being a shuttle to Manchester operated with a 323, with the Southport service terminating elsewhere.

 

[IanXC]

Perhaps putting a 153 with a 150 2 car in place of the 3 car 150s, and use 3 car 150s on Southport - Alderley Edge? I think thats what used to work those services?

I don't think you're correct there.

Several years ago, there was no Alderley-Southport. The Alderley services terminated in the main shed at Piccadilly, and it was extremely rare for anything other than a 323 to appear. The Southport services went to Victoria.

May 2018 saw the extension of these terminating services through Castlefield to Wigan, and they became an excellent example of the so-called "random unit generator" effect. It was generally 4 cars, sometimes short-formed to 2 - pretty much any combination of 142, 150 and 156 could be used, and it was very rare to get 4 carriages which were all the same inside and out considering Northern's piecemeal refurbishment programme with different units in different stages of refurb. At some point later they extended through to Southport, but not much changed with the rolling stock.

The random unit generator became a little less random as the refurb programme concluded, and the Pacers were withdrawn - it settled down into usually being either 150+142 or 150+150 (150s of course being mostly refurbished ones by that point). This was until the last of the 142s went, at which point it became almost entirely 150s in a mixture of 2- and 4-car formations (with the occasional 156 appearance). This is how it stayed until the 769s came.

It is expected that things will shortly come full circle, and the Alderley Edge section will go back to being a shuttle to Manchester operated with a 323, with the Southport service terminating elsewhere.

I think you're totally at cross purposes here!

Admittedly not particularly clear but "those services" being those currently worked by 3 car 150s.

 

[Swaine]

First time on a train for 18 months!
A return journey from Penistone to Huddersfield on a reasonably full train.
I was very impressed with the 150. Spotlessly clean and on time. The guards were very visible too.
One gripe. We’ve now got wall to wall announcements all the time. When the train is leaving a station, I don’t really need to be told to mind the gap at the next one. We don’t seem to be able to differentiate between proper risk management and legal buck passing any more.
Rant over. Back to the thread topic and well done to Northern on this line.

 

[yorksrob]

Can't be the direct solution as 153s are not cleared through Wigan Wallgate.

Perhaps putting a 153 with a 150 2 car in place of the 3 car 150s, and use 3 car 150s on Southport - Alderley Edge? I think thats what used to work those services?

Beyond that there are of course 156s from East Midlands Railway awaited.

That's a shame. I wonder whether someone needs to go along there slowly with a 153 and a ruler one weekend !

 

[driverd]

Perhaps putting a 153 with a 150 2 car in place of the 3 car 150s, and use 3 car 150s on Southport - Alderley Edge? I think thats what used to work those services?

Unfortunately there's a lack of even 153s now. I'm not entirely sure on the exact numbers but dispensations are expiring and there's only a handful that aren't in storage now (I'm sure someone will clarify exact figures).

Every northern based topic seems to be pulled back to a gripe about one particular service by one particular user. The very localised issues with that service have been discussed at length elsewhere - though fair play to those as quoted above trying to offer solutions! As mentioned by others elsewhere, however, this is a temporary probelm that will be solved shortly, either by the 769s bedding in, or the splitting of the service in question. Rome wasn't built in a day.

From my experience, predominantly around Yorkshire, things are going pretty well. 158s seem to rule the roost now, alongside 195s and 170s, and that alone is such a dramatic improvement. Reliability is also noticeably better, although I'm sure a big part of that is down to TPE both offering a more robust timetable and leaving a few spare paths with services yet to be reinstated.

From me, it's a thumbs up.

 

[AlastairFraser]

As other posters have said, Northern in Yorks are way better than Northern in the NW.
I recently moved from Burnley to Preston, so at least I have the option of TPE now, who tend to be much more reliable and the trains are much nicer, no fault of Northern of course.
Guards are usually friendly, I think they receive too much pressure forcing them into dualling as RPIs and dislike this role, could do with some more advance notice of engineering works and cancellations as a passenger.
The Class 331s provide a smooth ride and I think any electric Northern line can generally be relied to get you home, maybe a bit later, but still on time.
Northern diesel services are what I wouldn't rely on, but I guess that comes with the territory of having an aging fleet.
P13/P14 has defo improved at Man Picc, the new timetable is going to be much better for reliability hopefully.