Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[JamesT]

Was there not talk of building a more direct route from Inverqueerthing to Markinch? Could a Kinghorn Tunnel rebore be deferred until such a route existed.

Surely you'd just send traffic the other way round the Fife Circle whilst Kinghorn Tunnel was being worked on?

 

[Starmill]

Was there not talk of building a more direct route from Inverqueerthing to Markinch? Could a Kinghorn Tunnel rebore be deferred until such a route existed.

Finding funding for an off-line upgrade in the current environment would be all but impossible unfortunately.

 

[snowball]

Was there not talk of building a more direct route from Inverqueerthing to Markinch? Could a Kinghorn Tunnel rebore be deferred until such a route existed.

This may be a reference to the 2016 Scotland Route Study which mentioned a "Fife bypass line" described as "running close to the M90 for approximately five miles" requiring a junction between Inverkeithing and Dalgety Bay and another near Halbeath. "Related works are likely to be required in the Cowdenbeath area for higher linespeeds and an upgrade of Thornton North Junction to accommodate the revised routing of interurban traffic".

It was discussed around January 2017 in this thread.

It seems extremely unlikely that such a scheme would progress in the next 10-15 years.


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Further to the discussion on the previous page, see post #211 in the Decarbonising Scotland's Railways thread in the Speculation subforum, where @clc has posted a video of a chat with Alex Hynes.

 

[NotATrainspott]

That bypass line idea is unlikely to happen unless we get back to a world where the railway is capacity constrained and electrification is no longer the top priority. Partial electrification using BEMUs should simplify the Fife electrification by quite a bit. With traditional electrification, you'd pretty much have to electrify the Forth and Tay bridges as well as remodel Perth in order to get any real benefit. So, if you were to spend a big chunk of money to deliver some benefit sooner, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think about new tracks that would allow existing diesel trains to work more effectively. Electric or BEMU trains would still benefit from alignment upgrades but their faster acceleration means the improvement isn't quite as stark.

Leaving Perth mostly or entirely unwired until the remodelling is done seems perfectly sensible. That's the big benefit of BEMU: you don't have to wire up every last bit of track in order to run electric trains. The more wiring there is on the rest of the route, the less need there is to have it up in the station for trains to charge up before continuing. If that proves to be necessary, then partial electrification and other no-regrets work seems sensible.

 

[The exile]

Was there not talk of building a more direct route from Inverqueerthing to Markinch? Could a Kinghorn Tunnel rebore be deferred until such a route existed.

What would be the point? There’s already a diversionary route.

 

[najaB]

What would be the point? There’s already a diversionary route.

It's not about diversionary routes, but more that the current alignment is sub-optimal. A straighter, more direct routing would allow a significant speed increase.

 

[InOban]

It would also separate IC services to Aberdeen from stopping services.

 

[The exile]

It's not about diversionary routes, but more that the current alignment is sub-optimal. A straighter, more direct routing would allow a significant speed increase.

Misunderstanding! What I meant was that the only operational reason for delaying work at Kinghorn until a putative cut-off were complete would be that it would then provide a diversionary route during the works. As we have already got one, there’s no operational (as opposed to financial) reason to wait!

 

[InOban]

Am I right that part of the diversionary route via Dunfermline is single track?

 

[snowball]

Am I right that part of the diversionary route via Dunfermline is single track?

I don't have the relevant Quail map but OS 1:25k shows it as all double except for the triangular junction at Thornton. I believe the NW and SW curves there are both single track, and that the single track extends through the platforms at Glenrothes with Thornton station, so that one platfom is for trains to and from the north, and the other is for trains to and from the south. So if you want to go west you have to check which one for the next train.

 

[najaB]

I don't have the relevant Quail map but OS 1:25k shows it as all double except for the triangular junction at Thornton. I believe the NW and SW curves there are both single track, and that the single track extends through the platforms at Glenrothes with Thornton station, so that one platfom is for trains to and from the north, and the other is for trains to and from the south. So if you want to go west you have to check which one for the next train.

For clarity, each of the two platforms is on a separate single-track line rather than two platforms on either side of a single track line. (I know you know that, but it could have been read as there only being one track through the station).

 

[fgwrich]

I don't have the relevant Quail map but OS 1:25k shows it as all double except for the triangular junction at Thornton. I believe the NW and SW curves there are both single track, and that the single track extends through the platforms at Glenrothes with Thornton station, so that one platfom is for trains to and from the north, and the other is for trains to and from the south. So if you want to go west you have to check which one for the next train.

Correct, both turnouts are the Dunfermline side of the station. I’m not actually sure how often the northbound platform is actually used though - presumably it sees more use for the Glenrothes terminators, as the Fife Circle services always as you mention, used the south platform.

 

[snowball]

Correct, both turnouts are the Dunfermline side of the station. I’m not actually sure how often the northbound platform is actually used though - presumably it sees more use for the Glenrothes terminators, as the Fife Circle services always as you mention, used the south platform.

Presumably it will come into more use with the opening of the Levenmouth branch. I have seen it suggested that half the trains to/from the branch will go via one side of the Fife circle and half via the other, with fewer or no trains going right round the circle.

 

[waverley47]

Presumably it will come into more use with the opening of the Levenmouth branch. I have seen it suggested that half the trains to/from the branch will go via one side of the Fife circle and half via the other, with fewer or no trains going right round the circle.

The long term aspiration (post battery units) is 1ph around the circle, and 1tph from Levenmouth down each line to Edinburgh.

The pre-covid service was one full rounder, one stopper as from Edinburgh via Dunfermline to Cowdenbeath, and one from Edinburgh via Kirkcaldy to Glenrothes. I'm not sure what the current exact makeup is.

 

[najaB]

I’m not actually sure how often the northbound platform is actually used though - presumably it sees more use for the Glenrothes terminators, as the Fife Circle services always as you mention, used the south platform.

Looks like one service a day - late night service to Perth.

 

[fgwrich]

Presumably it will come into more use with the opening of the Levenmouth branch. I have seen it suggested that half the trains to/from the branch will go via one side of the Fife circle and half via the other, with fewer or no trains going right round the circle.

Indeed, I’ve always wondered what the rationing behind putting the crossovers on the western side of the station was - there looks to be enough room on the eastern side for at least one if not two sets of points. Presumably it was done to keep costs low at Glenrothes with Thornton.

The long term aspiration (post battery units) is 1ph around the circle, and 1tph from Levenmouth down each line to Edinburgh.

The pre-covid service was one full rounder, one stopper as from Edinburgh via Dunfermline to Cowdenbeath, and one from Edinburgh via Kirkcaldy to Glenrothes. I'm not sure what the current exact makeup is.

Ah, that’s good to hear.

IIRC, I believe the current set up now is a half hourly Glenrothes terminator via Dunfermline, and hourly alternating all stations to Perth / Dundee giving the Fife Circle stations almost a half hourly service (more 25 / 35 minutes).

Looks like one service a day - late night service to Perth.

Thanks - I didn’t think it was much!

 

[Railsigns]

Indeed, I’ve always wondered what the rationing behind putting the crossovers on the western side of the station was - there looks to be enough room on the eastern side for at least one if not two sets of points. Presumably it was done to keep costs low at Glenrothes with Thornton.

The crossovers were there before the station was built. If the crossovers were located any further east, they'd be on the curve.

 

[och aye]

Was there not talk of building a more direct route from Inverqueerthing to Markinch? Could a Kinghorn Tunnel rebore be deferred until such a route existed.

Where

 

[D6130]

Gloucester Central and Gloucester Eastgate.....oh, wait - it's already been done!

 

[och aye]

Gloucester Central and Gloucester Eastgate.....oh, wait - it's already been done!

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what does that have to do with the electrification project?

 

[D6130]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what does that have to do with the electrification project?

Whoops! Sorry....wrong thread. I knew I shouldn't have had that second glass of wine with my lunch!

 

[EastFifer]

Was leaving work earlier this evening. This is the current site of the supposed Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification HQ. All the portacabins and even the SPL signs have been removed.
One thing is for sure, work on this project is moving painfully slowly. If at all…

 

[snowball]

Was leaving work earlier this evening. This is the current site of the supposed Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification HQ. All the portacabins and even the SPL signs have been removed.
One thing is for sure, work on this project is moving painfully slowly. If at all…

That's depressing. Perhaps it's on ice till East Kilbride is done? Perhaps, like the DfT/Treasury with HS2, Scotgov is limiting its rate of spend on the decarbonisation programme.

 

[EastFifer]

That's depressing. Perhaps it's on ice till East Kilbride is done? Perhaps, like the DfT/Treasury with HS2, Scotgov is limiting its rate of spend on the decarbonisation programme.

I think it’s pretty dead in the water now. No news is bad news, in this case. And we’ve not heard any new updates from Network Rail Scotland this year.

 

[snowball]

I've just posted in the Levenmouth thread that I've discovered a question in the Scottish parliament answered on 7 July stating that the Thornton feeder is now expected to go live in 2026.

So no live wires in Fife before 2026, so it would be reasonable to suppose Haymarket-Dalmeny in 2025.

 

[najaB]

So no live wires in Fife before 2026, so it would be reasonable to suppose Haymarket-Dalmeny in 2025.

Which would explain why the down tools. No real benefit to wiring just Haymarket to Dalmeny vs the cost. Better to spend the money somewhere else just now.

 

[InOban]

The problem is that Westminster argues that HS2 will be of major benefit to Scotland (debatable at best) and even to Wales (!). As a result there is no allocation of funds under the Barnett formula to either administration.

Correction: should have googled HS2 Barnett formula. Scotland does appear to get its Barnett share, although whether this has been increased as as the cost of HS2 increases, don't know. Explains who ScoGov is so keen on the full HS2 being built.

 

[Korot]

No, HS2 only benefits England & Wales according to UK Govt, not Scotland. So Scotland does get extra funding (which it uses for it's decarbonisation program), while the devolved Wales gov't does not.

 

[fgwrich]

I've just posted in the Levenmouth thread that I've discovered a question in the Scottish parliament answered on 7 July stating that the Thornton feeder is now expected to go live in 2026.

So no live wires in Fife before 2026, so it would be reasonable to suppose Haymarket-Dalmeny in 2025.

Was the Haymarket to Dalmeny stretch due to be fed from the Thornton end, rather than running off the existing OHLE? Though I suppose there’s little benefit (other than to LNER) to crack on with it now if the rest of the Fife Circle isn’t going to be worked on for a few more years yet. A shame though, travelling along that stretch a few times last week gave me a good opportunity to see how many piles had been put in and it was certainly a good amount.

 

[zwk500]

The problem is that Westminster argues that HST2 will be of major benefit to Scotland (debatable at best) and even to Wales (!). As a result there is no allocation of funds under the Barnett formula to either administration.

No, HS2 only benefits England & Wales according to UK Govt, not Scotland. So Scotland does get extra funding (which it uses for it's decarbonisation program), while the devolved Wales gov't does not.

Have you got the Government paper saying this?