Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[Nicholas Lewis]

The problem is you would never get the freight operators would never accept Monday to Friday (and sometimes Saturdays) being disrupted.

They have accepted the Carstairs closure so as long as a diversionary route is available why wouldn't it be possible

 

[Taunton]

So what are the electric services that would be run once these substantial electrification works out to Dalmeny had been done? What electric stock do Scotrail have on order for it?

 

[najaB]

So what are the electric services that would be run once these substantial electrification works out to Dalmeny had been done? What electric stock do Scotrail have on order for it?

Nothing yet, but once the wires reach from North Queensferry to Burntisland I'd expect an order of BEMUs to be forthcoming.

 

[Taunton]

Nothing yet, but once the wires reach from North Queensferry to Burntisland I'd expect an order of BEMUs to be forthcoming.

Exactly. So all the disruption was for no current purpose at all. Which the railway apologists have kept completely concealed - probably describing the works, as normal, as "essential". No wonder the politicians told them not to be so silly.

 

[najaB]

Exactly. So all the disruption was for no current purpose at all. Which the railway apologists have kept completely concealed - probably describing the works, as normal, as "essential". No wonder the politicians told them not to be so silly.

But it has to be done at some point, or it would never get done.

 

[Taunton]

But it has to be done at some point, or it would never get done.

But that's a completely nebulous approach for a project with considerable expenditure and disruption. A real "project to nowhere". However did it get off the starting blocks?

 

[mcmad]

But that's a completely nebulous approach for a project with considerable expenditure and disruption. A real "project to nowhere". However did it get off the starting blocks?

its not an individual project, its a small element (lowering under 2 overbridges) of the overall project to run the BEMU Scotrail is ordering on the Fife and Dundee services

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind everyone that this thread is for the discussion of Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as the best time for engineering work generally then they are welcome to start a new thread.

 

[snowball]

Exactly. So all the disruption was for no current purpose at all. Which the railway apologists have kept completely concealed - probably describing the works, as normal, as "essential". No wonder the politicians told them not to be so silly.

On the contrary, it's part of a phased national plan to replace all domestic passenger diesel trains in Scotland, and some of the oldest EMU classes, with new EMUs and BEMUs. See the thread at this link, especially the first post.

ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme

An advert for a tender for legal services for the above (https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG455691) gives some more detail on the fleet plan ScotRail Trains (SRT) plans to replace 65% of its train fleet (around 675 carriages) in the period 2027 to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ginaro]

Nothing yet, but once the wires reach from North Queensferry to Burntisland I'd expect an order of BEMUs to be forthcoming.

Since when was this section being wired? The announced plans are for Fife are wires from Kirkcaldy and Cardenden, up to Ladybank. The BEMUs being ordered will of course fill the gaps either side of the wires in Fife.

 

[Trainbike46]

Since when was this section being wired? The announced plans are for Fife are wires from Kirkcaldy and Cardenden, up to Ladybank. The BEMUs being ordered will of course fill the gaps either side of the wires in Fife.

If I remember correctly, this section was announced shortly before the plans for Fife were

 

[snowball]

If I remember correctly, this section was announced shortly before the plans for Fife were

I don't remember any such specific announcement about that section. I think if there had been such an announcement, it would be well-known on here, and would have been mentioned in some of the press releases.

However, the position of the Scottish government and Network Rail all along has been that the entire route to Dundee and Aberdeen will eventually be wired, and this is confirmed by the news in #99 and #115 concerning test installation of electrification equipment on the Forth Bridge.

Ordering of BEMUs will be going ahead anyway.

 

[Trainbike46]

I don't remember any such specific announcement about that section. I think if there had been such an announcement, it would be well-known on here, and would have been mentioned in some of the press releases.

The scottish government have been rather quiet on the press releases, that is for sure

I did in fact read about it on this website, actually

 

[snowball]

Where would it be fed from? The only known proposed feeder station in Fife is Thornton. The known sections for early electrification radiate from there, N, S, E and W.

 

[Trainbike46]

Where would it be fed from? The only known proposed feeder station in Fife is Thornton. The known sections for early electrification radiate from there, N, S, E and W.

Are you denying that Haymarket-Dalmeny is getting electrified?

 

[zwk500]

Where would it be fed from? The only known proposed feeder station in Fife is Thornton. The known sections for early electrification radiate from there, N, S, E and W.

Which section are you querying? Haymarket-Dalmeny would presumably be fed from the existing OLE, it's not a long section.

 

[snowball]

Which section are you querying? Haymarket-Dalmeny would presumably be fed from the existing OLE, it's not a long section.

The query was over the section from North Queensferry to Burntisland, first mentioned by @najaB in #153, first queried by @Ginaro in #160, then (so it seemed to me) reasserted by @Trainbike46 in #161. It now seems we were at cross purposes, and @Trainbike46 thought I was querying Haymarket to Dalmeny.

Haymarket to Dalmeny will of course be fed from the Edinburgh end - Portobello or Currie or wherever the existing Edinburgh-Glasgow routes are fed from.

 

[najaB]

Since when was this section being wired? The announced plans are for Fife are wires from Kirkcaldy and Cardenden, up to Ladybank. The BEMUs being ordered will of course fill the gaps either side of the wires in Fife.

It's difficult to keep track of what has/has not been actually announced, but the 'difficult bit' on the route north is Kinghorn so it's only a matter of time until Inverkeithing to Burntisland is wired. The 2035 aspirational map shows it as wired and they're already investigating solutions for the Forth Bridge.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Are you denying that Haymarket-Dalmeny is getting electrified?

Which section are you querying? Haymarket-Dalmeny would presumably be fed from the existing OLE, it's not a long section.

The query was over the section from North Queensferry to Burntisland, first mentioned by @najaB in #153, first queried by @Ginaro in #160, then (so it seemed to me) reasserted by @Trainbike46 in #161. It now seems we were at cross purposes, and @Trainbike46 thought I was querying Haymarket to Dalmeny.

Haymarket to Dalmeny will of course be fed from the Edinburgh end - Portobello or Currie or wherever the existing Edinburgh-Glasgow routes are fed from.

I confess I was slightly confused myself. The Thread is titled "Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification" so that is also what I thought was being talked about. I have reposted the links to be sure.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

A Prior Approval notification (21/05894/PA) has been lodged with City of Edinburgh Council by Network Rail for the "Proposed installation of overhead Line Equipment and associated temporary works, Haymarket to Dalmeny".

The notification does not have much detail but can be viewed here: https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.go...s.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=R23IWVEW0XE00

Pleasantly surprised to see this announcement. I image this should be a fairly straightforward electrification or will any bridges need to be rebuilt/track bed lowered?

View attachment 106014

 

[waverley47]

I confess I was slightly confused myself. The Thread is titled "Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification" so that is also what I thought was being talked about. I have reposted the links to be sure.

Haymarket to dalmeny is being wired. The foundations are going in at various points and two (from memory) bridges are being demolished as we speak. This is being fed from Haymarket, and a combination of the existing network and the new feeder at Currie.

Thornton feeder is going in at some point later this year, and I'd expect a couple of foundations from the summer onwards, but the big thing this needs is the bimodes to make it worth it. There has been speculation that the masts will go in over time, but the knitting will go up at a later date closer to the arrival of the bimodes. This is as yet unconfirmed.

Queensferry to Burntisland is as yet unannounced. The route via Dunfermline is much easier, and will be completed first, while Kinghorn tunnel is worked out. But either of those is years away.


Wiring of the bridge isn't announced. It will be completed in due course, but it remains unannounced.

Instead, what has been announced is the installation of a section of dead wiring (or conductor bar) earthed at both ends, which is deemed sacrificial. This is being installed to see how it is effected by the weather over the bridge, and to see how different components last over time, so that when the bridge is wired properly, they have some idea of how the whole thing will slowly corrode.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Instead, what has been announced is the installation of a section of dead wiring (or conductor bar) earthed at both ends, which is deemed sacrificial. This is being installed to see how it is effected by the weather over the bridge, and to see how different components last over time, so that when the bridge is wired properly, they have some idea of how the whole thing will slowly corrode.

And that is excellent planning. Corrosion can be managed if you know that in say- 25 years -you have to renew most of the electrification kit. The Forth Bridge is in an Estuarine environment and moisture and traces of salt will be in the air (perfect for corrosion of many alloys). So, in 2055 have a total blockade and replace most of the electrification kit (copper wires should not need replacing as they are pretty damned cathodic). I am not worried at all.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And that is excellent planning. Corrosion can be managed if you know that in say- 25 years -you have to renew most of the electrification kit. The Forth Bridge is in an Estuarine environment and moisture and traces of salt will be in the air (perfect for corrosion of many alloys). So, in 2055 have a total blockade and replace most of the electrification kit (copper wires should not need replacing as they are pretty damned cathodic). I am not worried at all.

Youd expect by now that across the world this would be well understood as plenty more hostile locations than the Forth bridge but as usual in this country we couldn't possible look at what has been done elsewhere and just apply that knowledge. Anyhow plenty of time to trial it.

 

[The exile]

Youd expect by now that across the world this would be well understood as plenty more hostile locations than the Forth bridge but as usual in this country we couldn't possible look at what has been done elsewhere and just apply that knowledge. Anyhow plenty of time to trial it.

Experience gained elsewhere might be useful - but not half as accurate as experience gained - in advance - in the exact location, where there's no need to adjust for local conditions!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Experience gained elsewhere might be useful - but not half as accurate as experience gained - in advance - in the exact location, where there's no need to adjust for local conditions!

Fair point and at least there not making the same mistake as the Severn Tunnel where they installed the rigid conductor bar years before they energised it then they found out all the problems.

I was more thinking of the amount of sea spary the electrification down Ayr is exposed to in storm conditions and BR mastered that nearly 40 years ago

 

[Ginaro]

Sorry, thought it was clear from the quote what I replying to

It's difficult to keep track of what has/has not been actually announced, but the 'difficult bit' on the route north is Kinghorn so it's only a matter of time until Inverkeithing to Burntisland is wired. The 2035 aspirational map shows it as wired and they're already investigating solutions for the Forth Bridge.

Is that the 2035 map on page 40 here https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/47906/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan.pdf (as it says "sections of route may include discontinuous or intermittent electrification") or is there another one you're referring to showing the gaps in Fife wired?

 

[The exile]

Fair point and at least there not making the same mistake as the Severn Tunnel where they installed the rigid conductor bar years before they energised it then they found out all the problems.

I was more thinking of the amount of sea spary the electrification down Ayr is exposed to in storm conditions and BR mastered that nearly 40 years ago

The frequent showers of sea water that the OHLE gets at Saltcoats (and elsewhere) will be very different from the atmosphere on the Forth Bridge - as, presumably will be the structures involved.

 

[HamBuoy]

Youd expect by now that across the world this would be well understood as plenty more hostile locations than the Forth bridge but as usual in this country we couldn't possible look at what has been done elsewhere and just apply that knowledge. Anyhow plenty of time to trial it.

I expect the other thing they have to consider is the rate of corrosion of the Forth Road Bridge was found to be much quicker than experienced in similar bridges due to the specific environmental conditions here. If they did not evaluate the corrosion rate now they will be sitting ducks in the future were any corrosion issues to occur later.

 

[Trainbike46]

The query was over the section from North Queensferry to Burntisland, first mentioned by @najaB in #153, first queried by @Ginaro in #160, then (so it seemed to me) reasserted by @Trainbike46 in #161. It now seems we were at cross purposes, and @Trainbike46 thought I was querying Haymarket to Dalmeny.

Haymarket to Dalmeny will of course be fed from the Edinburgh end - Portobello or Currie or wherever the existing Edinburgh-Glasgow routes are fed from.

I did in fact think we were talking about Haymarket to Dalmeny, sorry for misunderstanding

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I expect the other thing they have to consider is the rate of corrosion of the Forth Road Bridge was found to be much quicker than experienced in similar bridges due to the specific environmental conditions here. If they did not evaluate the corrosion rate now they will be sitting ducks in the future were any corrosion issues to occur later.

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Just shows you how clever the Victorians were managing to build the bridge without all this knowledge

In fairness, a paint company was set up and they painted it one end to the other and then started all over again. This over many decades. The company used to be a customer of mine and by the way, they used lead-based paint like all the Victorians and Georgians etc did. The Victorians did not have to worry about environmental regulations, or SVHC.

Substances of Very High Concern (SVHCs) are chemicals that have serious effects on human health or the environment. These chemicals may be individual substances or articles contained within a complex product.