Health and Safety? (Lymington sacking)

[Firestarter]

When I did my induction before starting my current post, and indeed with other TOCS, the question of what to do if there is an obstruction/person on the tracks came up.

The official reply on every occasion I have had this discussion is that only PTS qualified staff are allowed onto the tracks. Non safety critical staff are supposed to contact the signalman and inform him of the situation and ask for the signals to be changed/power turned off. When this is done a PTS holder will then access the tracks and deal with the incident.

I know that in real life the obvious thing to do is to jump down yourself and do it but you are potentially becoming a casualty yourself and therefore in breach of most TOC's health and safety policies.

I have been told categorically that people who are non PTS holders who access the tracks for ANY reason will be immediately dismissed and may also face charges.

I know that the story featured is missing some details but it looks like this is the reason the gentleman was dismissed on Health & Safety grounds.

non PTS holders can go onto the track but only with the signalman's permission and of course the relevant line(s) having a block.

 

[Hydro]

non PTS holders can go onto the track but only with the signalman's permission and of course the relevant line(s) having a block.

I've not heard this, but if true there is definitely another way non-PTS holders can gain access to the track, blocked or open.

 

[33011]

I've not heard this, but if true there is definitely another way non-PTS holders can gain access to the track, blocked or open.

non-PTS holders are only allowed on the track in a life or death emergency situation and then only once they have okayed a block from the signal man.

 

[Hydro]

non-PTS holders are only allowed on the track in a life or death emergency situation and then only once they have okayed a block from the signal man.

Not true, non-PTS holders are allowed on with a Track Visitors Permit under supervision from a Controller of Site Safety; this can be red or green zone and the signalman isn't involved at any stage.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The problem is that most of these "HSE regulations" do not exist !
They are, more often than not, a completely erroneous interpretation applied by "office bound, unaffected pen pushing wallahs" who have never done any proper H & S training in their life..............

Maybe over simplified, but there's a lot of truth in that post.

However, there is a catalogue of case law used by the legal representatives of claimants which has created these widespread policies of risk-avoidance taken to the extreme (and there are plenty on the railways that are absolutely pointless in practice but enforced to the utmost degree). I believe that it is this great fear of claims (and perhaps a lesser fear of a fine or penalty from the H&SE or NR) that fuels and sustains these policies.

 

[deanparkr]

This news is shocking. He was a fantastic station master always friendly and helpful. Absolutely outrageous that he has been sacked.

 

[Greenback]

This man was very highly thought of. I'm sure there was an article about him in a magazine a while back. I have to say I agree that there must be more to the story than what has been leaked out in the press.

The unions have been rather silent, but then the person involved may not have been a union member, so would not have been entitled to any representation.

 

[deanparkr]

He always striked me as the kind of person who would be part of a Union but who knows. I'm sure more details will be revealed over the coming weeks.

 

[jopsuk]

It seems that the love wasn't universal, from the Daily Echo comments.

Also, no-one has pointed out that at the low speeds of a service that stops everywhere on a slow line (which is what the Lymington branch service is) at a station, whilst it is possible that a trolley may have done some damage to the train or maybe even track, the chances of derailment, let alone a crash, would have been tiny- and there's a pretty good chance the object deflectors would have swept something so light out of the way. He certainly wouldn't have been sacked for not removing it- though not reporting it would have been noted.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

'twould seem that chummy has had 27 years service. He knows what's what and how. He's been at Lym for a bit. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Lym a dead-end station that's not exactly blessed with ten trains per hour? This is where H&S falls apart. It's a one size fits all thing that doesn't make allowances. This is what makes a laughing stock and tragedy of this sort of scenario. Must make a mental note. Child falls on track, no sign of a train. No staff at unmanned station. Leave child there because I don't want to be taken to court for trespassing. Sleep soundly at night.

 

[Smudger105e]

'twould seem that chummy has had 27 years service. He knows what's what and how. He's been at Lym for a bit. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Lym a dead-end station that's not exactly blessed with ten trains per hour? This is where H&S falls apart. It's a one size fits all thing that doesn't make allowances. This is what makes a laughing stock and tragedy of this sort of scenario. Must make a mental note. Child falls on track, no sign of a train. No staff at unmanned station. Leave child there because I don't want to be taken to court for trespassing. Sleep soundly at night.

Sleep soundly at night? A bit emotive, isn't it?

the railway industry is the third most regulated in the UK, behind the nuclear and aircraft industries, an it i this regulation which makes railtravel the safest form of land travel. In order for it to be as safe as it is, all ail staff work to the rule book If you knowingly ignore anything in the rule book (such as a non PTS holder working in a red zone) you risk disciplinary action, and if your employer considers that yur actions were gross misconduct, you can be dismissed.

Finally, the TOCs do not manage the JIS (Joint Industry Scheme) otherwide known as the Railway Pension Scheme. It is a separate company, and each section of the scheme is managed by Trustees, so sacking an employee will not save the TOC any pension money (I hope I'm right thinking this!!)

 

[networkrail1]

Hi all.

For anyone who is interested i have finally found a running petition for the station masters reinstatement.


http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/pet...-reinstate-ian-faletto-at-lymington-town/2815

All the best.

Simon

 

[O L Leigh]

Just to clear up the PTS question.

The rules do not permit any non-PTS competent workers to go on or near the line unless they have a Track Visitors Permit and are being accompanied by a COSS or are undergoing training for PTS under the instruction of a COSS (G2 5.1). However, they may also go on or near the line in an emergency in order "...to prevent death or injury" although they should "...take extra care and not touch any rail or electrical equipment" (G2 5.2). On the scant evidence available in the news coverage it would be my opinion that this was not a situation that merited emergency action by a non-PTS staff member. If a train had hit the shopping trolley it would have presented a very low risk of derailment, especially if the train speed was low, so there is almost no question about such actions preventing injury or death.

The rules that cover this situation, and those that this chap should have implemented, are Module G1 Rule 3 - Stopping a train in an emergency. Basically, having identified the obstruction to the line, he should have informed the signaller immediately and then it would have been down to the signaller to get the situation sorted. It may or may not have required an isolation depending on the proximity of the trolley to the juice rail, but that really isn't for him to decide. It may have required a MOM to come out and remove it or, if there was train imminent, the driver may have been asked. However, by calling up Eastleigh ECO and taking an isolation in order that he could go sauntering down the line himself to retrieve the trolley, this chap will have broken a number of rules which will have resulted in him finding himself in the awkward situation he's in now.

As to the mechanics of this, it's only a matter of speculation. If he's on tape having called up the signaller or ECO explaining what he's proposing and asking them to do it's just as likely that pressure has been brought to bear on the TOC by Nitwit Rail for fairly major rules breaches.

I'm slightly reluctant to be dragged into the greater discussion about the rights and wrongs of this all. However, I do resist the notion that the rules should simply be ignored on the basis of something being commonsense. No matter how daft a rule may appear to be it's there for a reason, and if we're advocating turning a blind eye to one, well where does it all end? Will we soon be having trains running around with safety systems isolated in order to preserve the service and reduce train cancellations? I sincerely hope not.

What does strike me as odd (and has done for some time now) is that station supervisors are not given PTS training and passed competent in order that silly little things like this can be dealt with quickly, safely and within the rules rather than having to wait for a MOM to come out. For me, this is the cause and solution for problems like this, not the short-sightedness or unsuitability of the rules.

O L Leigh

 

[sunday]

It may just be me but I would think that it would be unfair for any of us to call for the reinstatement of the guy when we do not know the full story or even have confirmation of the reason he was sacked. The only source we have is a semi-story from the BBC and an outraged Daily Mail story (a paper known for its kneejerk reactions and not fully representing the facts) and a bit from the local paper.

In all likelihood the reason SWT are reluctant to comment is either because to publicly air a grievance with a former employee is innappropriate or because they expect this matter to be taken further through the proper channels rather than being thrashed out in the gutter press. This country has one of the best workers rights systems in the world and an excellent track record of dealing with situations like this. Whilst I have every sympathy with the guy for losing his job I begin to lose that when I see him shilling his story to the rags rather than taking it up through the proper channels. It is unfair and offers SWT no means of responding without making themselves look bad in one way or another.

That said I do love how stories like this bring the nutters out the woodwork in the comments section:

Common sense and justness went out of the window once Health & Safety rules, the Human Rights Act, political correctness and the compensation culture took hold. This is what Britain has become and descended to.
- Lou, England, 11/5/2011 20:01

STAND UP the man who made the decision to sack this man you must have a face and a name,or do you prefer to HIDE behind the name spokesman,or have you lost your backbone?
- tom, south shields, 11/5/2011 16:13

This country is stark raving bonkers. I know it is not a very articulate argument but does incidents like this warrant one. These intellectuals churned out of our universities socially engineered by this left wing liberal utopia nonsense do not have an ounce of common sense and sign up to this Hummanistic rubbish washed by marxist thought police garbage such as health and safety equality and diversity and yuman rights. Oh for a referendum on this nonsense and we can again expose the only ones for it exist in the left wing London boroughs.................. I feel a lot better for that thank you.
- Rick, Teesside, 11/5/2011 19:21

 

[jopsuk]

as I saw mentioned elsewhere, there's that "Richard Littlejohn" esque trendancy, as noted by comedian Stewart Lee, to conflate "political correctness", "elf and safety" (urgh) and "yuman rights" (urgh as well) into one evil leftwing big business commie pinko nazi monster that's, um, somewhat common in newspaper comments.

 

[EM2]

Can I bring a touch of levity to the debate and just thank Hydro for reminding me of this comedic gem:
"Don't talk to ME about sophistication, I've BEEN to Leeds"

 

[HST Power]

His actions may have been dangerous, but I still think it's unfair to sack him. He sounded like a really good Station Master, somebody who didn't just show up to earn his wage and go home, more like somebody who genuinely cared about the station, the passengers and the quality of service. I've never seen a station with a flower display. And all the times I've spoke to station masters (no offence to any on here) they don't exactly seem a barrel of laughs. Now I may have missed this, but why was the trolley on the line in the first place? I can see the argument put forward that he shouldn't have touched the railway; it's electrified, dangerous ECT, but he was a Station Master. He'd been in the job for years, so I take it he'd have very good knowledge of the railway, safety and service, as demonstrated by what the Villagers said when they heard the news. If I saw a trolley on the line, I wouldn't touch it. I'd alert the staff. That's common sense, unless you want to get fly five hundred feet into the air burning out with electricity. Though as I said, the man was a Station Master. And as it says in his title, it's his job to look after the place. If he hadn't picked that trolley up, we could well be having this very same debate, only with a derailment involved and loss of life. If a HST had come through the place.......

 

[moonrakerz]

conflate "political correctness", "elf and safety" (urgh) and "yuman rights" (urgh as well) into one evil leftwing big business commie pinko nazi monster

.....you forgot Laura Norder !............

 

[jopsuk]

His actions may have been dangerous, but I still think it's unfair to sack him.

I'd agree, but that makes me suspect that there was more to it than that, which is why it is right that SWT are not saying anything whilst prcoeedings are ongoing.

If a HST had come through the place.......

everyone would be very, very, very surprised!
I've checked the 2009 Baseline declaration, line speed at lymington Town is 20mph.

 

[Bon Accord]

Has anyone considered that perhaps the reason he did what he did was because as someone who obviously has a good deal of pride in his job and station (VERY rare these days), and knowing how the 'system' works. that rather than going through the rigmarole of permissions, isolations and other such stuff which would have likely taken hours/days, he made the judgement that the trolley was easily and safely retrievable and then did so.
Lets be honest, many of us in other highly regulated/excessive bull**** industries do the same often enough.
I'd still be interested to find out who shopped him.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I cannot believe that someone would be sacked for what is a relatively minor rules breach unless he was on a final warning or had a record of breaching rules, which makes me think there is more to this than he is letting on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

could well be having this very same debate, only with a derailment involved and loss of life. If a HST had come through the place.......

Give over. It's a small speed, and a shopping trolley is hardly going to derail or kill anyone. Remember grayrigg? 125mph derailment? Only 1 person died.

 

[Smudger105e]

Mr Faletto, from Southampton, Hants, said: "I got to work on the Sunday morning and noticed a shopping trolley had been thrown from the end of the platform onto the tracks.

"I knew the first train of the day was due in around half an hour and was concerned it could be derailed, seriously damaging the carriage and injuring passengers.

"I considered it an emergency and therefore phoned the signal box in Brockenhurst and asked them to turn off the power so I could retrieve the trolley.

"I was trying to prevent a rail accident and believe I followed procedure.

"Once I was informed the power was off I went onto the track and removed the trolley and a few other small pieces, such as tin cans. I thought nothing of it.

"Later that week I was told the area manager had seen me on CCTV venturing onto the track and that I had breached health and safety rules.

"I was also told that the power hadn't actually been turned off either.

South West Trains says staff are banned from going onto the line unless it is an emergency or they are trying to prevent a disaster.

A spokesman said: "We can confirm that an employee has been dismissed for a serious breach of safety.

"All our employees are aware of the importance of complying with the strict rules governing railway safety, which we have a duty to enforce."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-sacked-for-removing-trolley-from-track.html

So, he rang the Signalman to have the power switched off? The signalman told him it was off? I don't think so. So he went onto the track with no PTS, and with the traction supply still on. As has been said before, there are lots of questions to which we do not know the answers.

 

[Greenback]

I cannot believe that someone would be sacked for what is a relatively minor rules breach unless he was on a final warning or had a record of breaching rules, which makes me think there is more to this than he is letting on.

Mr Faletto, from Southampton, Hants, said: "I got to work on the Sunday morning and noticed a shopping trolley had been thrown from the end of the platform onto the tracks.

"I knew the first train of the day was due in around half an hour and was concerned it could be derailed, seriously damaging the carriage and injuring passengers.

"I considered it an emergency and therefore phoned the signal box in Brockenhurst and asked them to turn off the power so I could retrieve the trolley.

"I was trying to prevent a rail accident and believe I followed procedure.

"Once I was informed the power was off I went onto the track and removed the trolley and a few other small pieces, such as tin cans. I thought nothing of it.

"Later that week I was told the area manager had seen me on CCTV venturing onto the track and that I had breached health and safety rules.

"I was also told that the power hadn't actually been turned off either.

South West Trains says staff are banned from going onto the line unless it is an emergency or they are trying to prevent a disaster.

A spokesman said: "We can confirm that an employee has been dismissed for a serious breach of safety.

"All our employees are aware of the importance of complying with the strict rules governing railway safety, which we have a duty to enforce."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-sacked-for-removing-trolley-from-track.html

So, he rang the Signalman to have the power switched off? The signalman told him it was off? I don't think so. So he went onto the track with no PTS, and with the traction supply still on. As has been said before, there are lots of questions to which we do not know the answers.

I agree. There is something very strange here, but we have only heard one side of the story.

 

[AlterEgo]

Remember grayrigg? 125mph derailment? Only 1 person died.

96mph derailment. It wasn't travelling at full pelt.

 

[Hydro]

that rather than going through the rigmarole of permissions, isolations and other such stuff which would have likely taken hours/days.

An emergency call to the box at Brock, who'd then arrange the isolation with Eastleigh, then inform you of details of the emergency isolation and blocking limits....ten minutes, tops. Train movements would have been stopped within the first minute.

I'm in agreement with O L Leigh here, why station staff are not trained in these matters to know the above procedure to get it sorted with minimal disruption within the boundaries of the Rule Book, rather than either a) wait for a MOM, or b) sort it out off your own back as has happened here.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

96mph derailment. It wasn't travelling at full pelt.

Even so, a shopping trolley being hit at 20mph is not going 'to kill everybody'.

 

[rockford]

He's being interviewed by Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 at 13:30 if anyone's interested.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

He's being interviewed by Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 at 13:30 if anyone's interested.

I'll be listening.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even so, a shopping trolley being hit at 20mph is not going 'to kill everybody'.

No - although it still constitutes a safety risk, and could case damage to a train.

As people have stated, there's more to this story than what's been reported, which is obvious.