Heating in electric buses

[PG]

Mod note: thread split from here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bus-manufacturer-news-discussion.185467/

ADL published a few shots of their E100EV demonstrator at Millbrook today.

Looks like the driver felt a bit chilly - wrapped up in a scarf. Maybe instructed not to put the heating on to conserve energy?...

 

[mjc]

Looks like the driver felt a bit chilly - wrapped up in a scarf. Maybe instructed not to put the heating on to conserve energy?...

Have you seen some different pics? The three linked to on Facebook, however I try to zoom in I can barely make out the driver let alone a scarf…

 

[Mikw]

Just imagining electric buses with no heaters now, and cold passengers. That sounds a bit like ScotRail passengers on early trains with 156s.

It seems the Kites in First Leicester don't have heaters. They're very cold in the winter.

 

[PG]

Have you seen some different pics? The three linked to on Facebook, however I try to zoom in I can barely make out the driver let alone a scarf…

The picture high up on the banking is the one that I noted the scarf.

It seem's the Kites in First Leicester don't have heaters. They're very cold in the winter

Oh dear me, is this the future of bus travel? - Bring your hot water bottle!

 

[K4016td]

No A/C, no heating - good grief. First it was to conserve fuel, now to conserve batteries - sad that despite these technology innovations UK passengers are set for the same substandard of bus travel due to the way the transport network is organised with private companies reducing running costs being the priority, not the passenger.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

No A/C, no heating - good grief. First it was to conserve fuel, now to conserve batteries - sad that despite these technology innovations UK passengers are set for the same substandard of bus travel due to the way the transport network is organised with private companies reducing running costs being the priority, not the passenger.

You could not be more correct!

 

[GusB]

Is there any evidence that these buses do not have heating?

 

[K4016td]

Is there any evidence that these buses do not have heating?

Even if there is the only way to extend their range at the lowest possible cost is not to have them on or ordering them without heaters as @Mikw had mentioned - and we all know what is the practice with the biggest operators. As cheap as possible. As a trivia in countires with more harsh winters some operators are ordering buses specced with diesel run (!) generators to provide heating on electric buses without affecting their range, bear in mind batteries are already suffering in colder weather so adding extra load isn't advised.

Nevertheless, it looks quite funny when you see something like this whilst driving behind an ''electric'' bus

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Even if there is the only way to extend their range at the lowest possible cost is not to have them on or ordering them without heaters as @Mikw had mentioned - and we all know what is the practice with the biggest operators. As cheap as possible. As a trivia in countires with more harsh winters some operators are ordering buses specced with diesel run (!) generators to provide heating on electric buses without affecting their range, bear in mind batteries are already suffering in colder weather so adding extra load isn't advised.

Nevertheless, it looks quite funny when you see something like this whilst driving behind an ''electric'' bus

I’m unsure what is going on in that video but I’ve never seen a diesel heater smoke like this during ordinary running.

Is there any evidence that these buses do not have heating?

They use Heat Pump technology, which frankly is useless in cold temperatures.

 

[slowroad]

I’m unsure what is going on in that video but I’ve never seen a diesel heater smoke like this during ordinary running.

They use Heat Pump technology, which frankly is useless in cold temperatures.

Lots of heat pumps sold in cold countries (for heating buildings, not buses admittedly).

Sales of heat pumps in Europe in 2022, by country | Statista

Italy and France were by far the European countries with the most heat pump sales in 2022.

www.statista.com

 

[Goldfish62]

No A/C, no heating - good grief. First it was to conserve fuel, now to conserve batteries - sad that despite these technology innovations UK passengers are set for the same substandard of bus travel due to the way the transport network is organised with private companies reducing running costs being the priority, not the passenger.

Do First's electric buses really not have heating, or is it actually just wibble?

 

[AB93]

Do First's electric buses really not have heating, or is it actually just wibble?

Plenty of people on here saying the York ones (same type as Leicester) “don’t have heating” too - but they were toasty warm when I used them.
Barring one bus that clearly had a fault.

 

[CBlue]

Plenty of people on here saying the York ones (same type as Leicester) “don’t have heating” too - but they were toasty warm when I used them.
Barring one bus that clearly had a fault.

Ssh, don't bring logic into it!



I'd have thought that at the very least some from of heating would be provided for windscreen demisting, alongside battery maintenance.

Most modern electric vehicles use an AC compressor and/or a heater to keep the battery pack within a certain operating temperature to ensure it keeps consistent capacity - if this is fitted to the GB Kite then it's not exactly difficult to extend the system into warming or cooling the saloon also.

 

[Geordie driver]

I think it's very unlikely a bus would be ordered with no heating for the driver or heating for the windscreen. I would refuse to drive a bus with no cab heating in the winter, indeed I have done so.

I would not put it past the UK cut every corner bus industry to order a bus with no saloon heating.

If it's faulty, it shouldn't be on the road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ones in Milton Keynes (no longer operating) had diesel powered Webasto heaters!

 

[Snow1964]

Go Ahead London's first 50 single deck electric buses (the 2016 batch that started on the red arrow routes) had diesel heaters. More recent batches have electric heating.

I am sure electric pre-heating is an option, although whether it is specified is a different question. Warm it up whilst still plugged into the mains.

I might be wrong, but I think Yutong (and there are about 1000 in UK now) are all fitted with air conditioning. Comes as standard.

 

[Goldfish62]

Go Ahead London's first 50 single deck electric buses (the 2016 batch that started on the red arrow routes) had diesel heaters. More recent batches have electric heating.

I am sure electric pre-heating is an option, although whether it is specified is a different question. Warm it up whilst still plugged into the mains.

I might be wrong, but I think Yutong (and there are about 1000 in UK now) are all fitted with air conditioning. Comes as standard.

An extra 22p per km is available for zero emission buses. To qualify there must be no diesel heating on board.

Heating / air chill via heat pump and electric pre-heat come as standard on EVs currently on the market.

Plenty of people on here saying the York ones (same type as Leicester) “don’t have heating” too - but they were toasty warm when I used them.
Barring one bus that clearly had a fault.

So the York ones have heating. I bet the Leicester ones do as well.

I went on a couple of Transport UK Electroliners during the last chilly snap. The first was freezing, the other one was nicely warm. Clearly the first one was faulty rather than not being fitted with heating.

I've been on plenty of diesel buses that have been freezing cold. That doesn't mean they weren't fitted with heating.

 

[kkong]

Do First's electric buses really not have heating, or is it actually just wibble?

The Yutongs in Aberdeen do have at least one saloon heater - it's openly visible below some tip-up longitudinal seats.

 

[Volvodart]

The Yutongs in Aberdeen do have at least one saloon heater - it's openly visible below some tip-up longitudinal seats.

The visible ones should not be on though, they are for frost protection. The heat on the bus comes from other means.

 

[Geordie driver]

Because a bus is fitted with heaters when new, it does not follow that they will still have working heaters in use.

 

[Snow1964]

Because a bus is fitted with heaters when new, it does not follow that they will still have working heaters in use.

That is true, but does mean someone had to allow it to breakdown without doing a repair, or have made deliberate decision to remove or disable it.

Otherwise default would be to work same as when new.

 

[PG]

Because a bus is fitted with heaters when new, it does not follow that they will still have working heaters in use.

Operators won't like it: Time for saloon heating to be added to the annual test?

 

[renegademaster]

The new BYD-AD Enviro 200MMCs used on the 450 to Crystal Palace never seem to have their heating on, and were quite chilly during january

 

[Goldfish62]

The new BYD-AD Enviro 200MMCs used on the 450 to Crystal Palace never seem to have their heating on, and were quite chilly during january

Just like the E200s they replaced then!

 

[Jordan Adam]

The Yutongs in Aberdeen do have at least one saloon heater - it's openly visible below some tip-up longitudinal seats.

The Yutongs have proper saloon air-conditioning with vents above every seat that are able to provide warm or cold air. From my own experience it works very well.

 

[Starmill]

They use Heat Pump technology, which frankly is useless in cold temperatures.

Air source heat pumps can have a coefficient of production over 3 even at -10C. It's really not a problem at all if you have the right set up and right refrigerant. It's probably a cheap one that's not fit for purpose that's been installed. Would be the same with an electric resistive heater from Temu!

 

[Mikw]

Is there any evidence that these buses do not have heating?

Being on them, on many occassions. The First Leicester Kites are absolutely freezing. The Yutongs on the Park and Ride on the other hand have lovely warm heating and cool air con.
I actually emailed First Leicester and outright asked, they replied a number of days later and said because it was an internal matter i would not be getting an answer.

 

[Zamracene749]

I used to work in a building that relied on HVAC for heating. Technically it was rated sufficiently, but, anywhere under about -5 degrees and you would be shivering. The cause was outside humidity. The external evaporator would simply ice up and choke the airflow. No airflow means no heat to transfer. I spent many a night huddled around a cheap oil filled radiator. The UK is hardly an arid area to start with, plus busy roads are even more humid due to emissions from other vehicles. Perhaps this is the issue? Although I suspect it's really down to the drastically reduced range with full heating on.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I used to work in a building that relied on HVAC for heating. Technically it was rated sufficiently, but, anywhere under about -5 degrees and you would be shivering. The cause was outside humidity. The external evaporator would simply ice up and choke the airflow. No airflow means no heat to transfer. I spent many a night huddled around a cheap oil filled radiator. The UK is hardly an arid area to start with, plus busy roads are even more humid due to emissions from other vehicles. Perhaps this is the issue? Although I suspect it's really down to the drastically reduced range with full heating on.

If this was a game of Bingo you just win!!

It is absolutely everything to do with energy consumption, many European countries have known for quite some time there is less electrical energy consumption overall by using a small diesel-heater system instead of completely relying on a heat pump system in the colder months because as the temperature drops heat pump systems become less effective at their intended duty(to heat an area) unless an additional heating element is installed into the system for when temperature drop to low for the heat pump system to maintain interior heat, installing an additional electric heating element is a no go for electric vehicles considering the limitations for there electrical capacity.

However, by charging both an electric buses 300-500kwh battery and then putting diesel in to the bus for the purposes of heating(if it does have a diesel-fired heater fitted) is more costly overall, this is why at least in the UK it is a no go, plus it then wouldn’t be “zero emission”.

Having an electric bus with a diesel heater is preferable for the purposes of heating a bus interior compared to running a fully diesel all year round..

 

[TUC]

Why are so many Green developments third rate when it comes to comfort?