Help: Brighton to Victoria validity with W Hampstead season ticket

[Chris-O]

This week I was pushed into a world of 'permitted routes' and ATOC routeing guides that is completely new to me.

I have been using London Road Brighton to West Hampstead tickets (not underground - I use a bike) for travelling to London via London Bridge, London Waterloo or via Victoria for about 4 years, first with day returns and now with an annual season. The incentive being they are cheaper than London 'all permitted'. I've done this since advised by a ticket seller that this would be valid and cheaper.

I bought these tickets in good faith (and I checked again before buying my season ticket) and have never been challenged on this ticket, until this week. When I was stopped at Victoria and, after a long and acrimonious debate, issued with a penalty fare by Gatwick Express staff as a result of using the 8.13 from Brighton.

I would welcome advice from those that know the arcane workings of the routes from Brighton, whether my Brighton - Victoria journey was permitted? Also whether it makes a difference if the train stops at Clapham Jtn?
Do I need to change my season? I was 'advised' by a Southern manager that I have to use the shortest possible route.

Thanks

 

[Clip]

Do you ride from Victoria/LDn Bridge then?

I wouldve thought that going via Thameslink wouldve been quicker and the most obvious route for this journey.( I ahvent looked at it properly - just asking)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Tickets are valid by three types of route. The shortest route, direct trains and routes shown in the Routeing Guide. this information s found in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which your ticket is issued subject to.

There is some debate about what 'not underground' actually means. Some believe it is like a geographic route where you can't use any route that might involve the Underground. Some believe it is more like a Train Company restriction, where the routes available aren't made smaller, just the number of trains you can use.

The former would prevent you going to Victoria and pretty much limit you to the FCC route through London, the latter would not.

The problem is that there is no specific rule to say which is actually true. All we really know is that you cannot use the London Underground.

My personal opinion is that it is fine to Victoria, but I would not like to be the one trying it.

 

[Chris-O]

Do you ride from Victoria/LDn Bridge then?

I wouldve thought that going via Thameslink wouldve been quicker and the most obvious route for this journey.( I ahvent looked at it properly - just asking)

Hi, if I need to make the journey, I ride from Victoria to St Pancras and continue. On man¥ occasions, though, I'm working elsewhere in London so I often travel by bike from Victoria.

 

[maniacmartin]

Point to point seasons from London Road Brighton to West Hampstead are routed LONDON NOT UND. This is a different routecode from NOT UNDERGROUND. However I do not think this removes any of the ambiguity that hairyhandedfool refers to.

Are you sure you were charged a Penalty Fare and not an excess fare or other ticket?
One argument that you might wish to take is that the only reason the ticket was invalid (if it is invalid, which is not clear) is because you were off-route.

Page 11 of the Penalty Fares Policy states:

• Ticket routing. A passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is
using a route on which their ticket is not valid, may not be charged a penalty fare. The
National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare to travel on a
different route from that shown on their ticket.

I'm not sure how this works with season tickets though, as you can't excess a season ticket for a one-off journey, and the only other season tickets are outboundary travelcards. I would suppose that a single from East Croydon to Victoria would be analogous in this case (which would be valid under NRCoC condition 19c)

 

[Chris-O]

Point to point seasons from London Road Brighton to West Hampstead are routed LONDON NOT UND. This is a different routecode from NOT UNDERGROUND. However I do not think this removes any of the ambiguity that hairyhandedfool refers to.

Yes, my season is LONDON NOT UND.
If anyone can help to clarify whether this makes a difference for a journey to Victoria that would be appreciated. At one point the Southern manager suggested it might, but then said he wasn't sure.

Thx

 

[island]

The validity of such a ticket is debatable. To me it comes down to whether "London not Und" means (1) "you must travel via London and your ticket is not valid on the underground [therefore if you need to transfer between two London terminals and you do it by underground you need to pay for it separately]" or (2) "you must travel via London and only on a route that does not use the Underground [in this case intended to mean Thameslink from St. Pancakes to London Bridge and FCC onwards; other tickets with such a route are intended for use with a walk between Waterloo East and Waterloo.]"

Some say that even in the second case the journey is valid using such terms as "there is a walking interchange between Blackfriars and Victoria". It is my personal opinion that this is bending the rules out of shape.

 

[yorkie]

You can appeal this, you should be successful as someone else was!

 

[Chris-O]

You can appeal this, you should be successful as someone else was!

Do you have any details of other successful appellants?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can appeal this, you should be successful as someone else was!

I've responded to your PM

 

[OwlMan]

With the new Routeing Guide having been introduced in April 2014 this problem appears to have changed. On the three appropriate maps for this journey (LB & VB from Brighton & MI from West Hampstead) individual London Terminals are not shown all now terminate at a single point named London Group. as such I can see no reason why Victoria can not be used.
All "LONDON NOT UND." means to the man on the street" is that the ticket is valid via London and can not be used on the Underground.

Peter

 

[Chris-O]

With the new Routeing Guide having been introduced in April 2014 this problem appears to have changed. On the three appropriate maps for this journey (LB & VB from Brighton & MI from West Hampstead) individual London Terminals are not shown all now terminate at a single point named London Group. as such I can see no reason why Victoria can not be used.
All "LONDON NOT UND." means to the man on the street" is that the ticket is valid via London and can not be used on the Underground.

Peter

Peter,
Thanks for your additional advice.

I had my penalty fare withdrawn by Southern before my appeal was heard, but, in a subsequent response from their 'customer service team', they stated this was little more than a goodwill gesture and that they would issue a penalty fare if I used the same route again in the future.

The FOI I received from the Dept of Transport confirmed that they do not agree with Southern's use of "Gat Ex" as a reason for a penalty fare. I've complained to Passenger Focus now.

I'll see what happens next!

Chris

 

[Skimpot flyer]

With the new Routeing Guide having been introduced in April 2014 this problem appears to have changed. On the three appropriate maps for this journey (LB & VB from Brighton & MI from West Hampstead) individual London Terminals are not shown all now terminate at a single point named London Group. as such I can see no reason why Victoria can not be used.
All "LONDON NOT UND." means to the man on the street" is that the ticket is valid via London and can not be used on the Underground.

Peter

Of course, the man on the street is the one clutching his ticket while he walks between Victoria and St Pancras

 

[zoneking]

So was the PF due to using a Gatwick Express Train, rather than the route?

 

[John @ home]

Who knows?

 

[sarahj]

Thse london not und tickets have exploded in use over the last few months. I'd say about 60 to 70% of the non gold tickets I checked today on the 17.56 Southern 442 from london bridge to Brighton were these, and the number of gold cards with these is increasing slowly. I understood them to be FFC priced tickets, but with no space to add FCC only as well, they have become the ticket of choice rather than london terminals. I read somewhere on another thread that say a one eg to Farningdon could be used to Victoria with the user claiming they would be making their own way from Victoria to Faringdon. As ticket checkers we have had no clarification, but since we very rarely get a chance to check tickets oursleves between say Croydon and Victoria, when I have come across them on a victoria service south of Croydon I let them pass. But this is of course, me personally and may not be official southern policy. (if there is one)

Perhaps the whole thing is moot anyway, when in just over a year we will be one big happy family. (FCC,Southern and Gat Ex)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think it's clear that FCC have routed it like this to avoid having to share revenue with TfL- the "any permitted" ticket for this route carries a Maltese Cross, and without "Not Underground" people would be free to "stop short" at a zone one Tube station. But do they share revenue with Southern? Is the issue that FCC cannot mark a ticket "FCC Only" when they control the flow, as they do with this one, so they've had to fudge it?

I had my penalty fare withdrawn by Southern before my appeal was heard, but, in a subsequent response from their 'customer service team', they stated this was little more than a goodwill gesture and that they would issue a penalty fare if I used the same route again in the future.

This sounds like an empty threat to me, as they won't want to have this tested in court- FCC can show how financially risky that would be.

 

[Hadders]

There isn't 'Any Permitted' season ticket for this route.

Brighton-West Hampstead route: London not Underground is only available as a season ticket. Conversely you can't buy a walk up ticket from Brighton to West Hampstead route: London not Underground.

Unlike 'normal' tickets seasons are not supposed to be sold with cross London availability (a few have slipped through though). If cross London availability is required then the appropriate Travelcard should be sold.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Brighton-West Hampstead route: London not Underground is only available as a season ticket. Conversely you can't buy a walk up ticket from Brighton to West Hampstead route: London not Underground.

You're quite right, I was thinking of tickets from St Pancras and Farringdon which are marked "Not Underground" as opposed to "FCC Only".

 

[yorkie]

A ticket routed via London not Und is valid via London Group/Terminals, but excludes travel on London Underground. The full text (see attachment) reads "via London but not via Underground", so it's pretty clear that they are valid via London Group/Terminals, and anyone who claims otherwise is wrong.

So passengers will have to use either FCC Thameslink services, cycle, walk, buses etc to cross London. Or they could use the Underground by using e.g. Oyster PAYG.

In some cases Train Companies may not like cheap fares which are priced by other Train Companies. Any pricing managers reading this are reminded that you cannot interfear with another Train Companies fares and any collusion and agreements to withdraw fares because another TOC doesn't like them wouldn't appear to be permitted by the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement...

 

[Haywain]

In some cases Train Companies may not like cheap fares which are priced by other Train Companies. Any pricing managers reading this are reminded that you cannot interfear with another Train Companies fares and any collusion and agreements to withdraw fares because another TOC doesn't like them wouldn't appear to be permitted by the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement...

They can't put the frighteners on...?

 

[Chris-O]

So was the PF due to using a Gatwick Express Train, rather than the route?

I'd got on the train at Brighton, so I guess the PF would be justified for the route though the reason on the PF was 'Gat Ex'.
The guy from Southern gave me some BS about not being permitted to travel on the train from Gatwick ("that all Brighton passengers have to change there").

 

[sarahj]

I'd got on the train at Brighton, so I guess the PF would be justified for the route though the reason on the PF was 'Gat Ex'.
The guy from Southern gave me some BS about not being permitted to travel on the train from Gatwick ("that all Brighton passengers have to change there").

Did he really say that?

 

[Chris-O]

Did he really say that?

Yes. I made a note of it on the penalty fare slip I was so astounded.
When I complained about this (among other points) to Southern they just said something along the lines that they'll have a word with this member of staff!