HELP invalid railcard used and getting taken to court?

[elephant1]

i’ve used the wrong railcard to purchase my train tickets multiple times and have now been issued a letter which says i’m being taken to court? i really don’t want a criminal record i’m only 19, what can i do??

 

[Snow1964]

Do you mean you used a 16-17 railcard with half off, rather than a suitable card for a 19 year old (eg 16-25) which gives third off.

Can you indicate train company or station where you were caught, as different operators take different approaches.

Roughly how many times have you done this, (even if haven't been caught before). It won't really matter if you buy tickets for cash because there won't be a history, but if you buy them electronically (eg an app) then your ticket buying history will be available.

Finally can you advise if you actually had a railcard, or not. If it is expired one then say when.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

i’ve used the wrong railcard to purchase my train tickets multiple times and have now been issued a letter which says i’m being taken to court? i really don’t want a criminal record i’m only 19, what can i do??

If you can, it would be good if you could show us the letter (with your personal details hidden). The thing is, the first letter that a lot of railway companies send out looks like they've decided to take you to court - but actually they're asking for information. That's very different from a summons when they have really decided to prosecute. Seeing the letter will help us know where you really stand.

 

[AlterEgo]

i’ve used the wrong railcard to purchase my train tickets multiple times and have now been issued a letter which says i’m being taken to court? i really don’t want a criminal record i’m only 19, what can i do??

What sort of railcard have you been using? Is it a JobCentre Plus card?

 

[elephant1]

What sort of railcard have you been using? Is it a JobCentre Plus card?

Yes, I have used the JobCentre one but I didn’t realise it would have such serious consequences and I really regret my decisions

If you can, it would be good if you could show us the letter (with your personal details hidden). The thing is, the first letter that a lot of railway companies send out looks like they've decided to take you to court - but actually they're asking for information. That's very different from a summons when they have really decided to prosecute. Seeing the letter will help us know where you really stand.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, I have used the JobCentre one but I didn’t realise it would have such serious consequences and I really regret my decisions

What a splendid guess by me. Shortly I will come up with next week's lottery numbers.

They are inviting you to an interview here. It has been suggested that sending a spreadsheet of all the offences to Chiltern and a letter with a sincere apology and a promise not to be dishonest with them again will stave off being prosecuted. Or, you can attend the interview, instead. It sounds like you do not have much of a choice here.

Do you have access to your booking history? Do you know how many times you have done this? Chiltern will want the full fares plus an administration fee for each occurrence, so this could be expensive for you.

 

[elephant1]

What a splendid guess by me. Shortly I will come up with next week's lottery numbers.


They are inviting you to an interview here. It has been suggested that sending a spreadsheet of all the offences to Chiltern and a letter with a sincere apology and a promise not to be dishonest with them again will stave off being prosecuted. Or, you can attend the interview, instead. It sounds like you do not have much of a choice here.

Do you have access to your booking history? Do you know how many times you have done this? Chiltern will want the full fares plus an administration fee for each occurrence, so this could be expensive for you.

Yes, I travel to London for university so I’ve done it a lot of times, I don’t mind paying the fine but can I just write an apologetic email? If so, please could you help me draft it? They have also attached more pages in the letter

 

[Pushpit]

Yes, I travel to London for university so I’ve done it a lot of times, I don’t mind paying the fine but can I just write an apologetic email? If so, please could you help me draft it? They have also attached more pages in the letter

I think AlterEgo has given you clear advice as to what to do next. If you do that spreadsheet and apology, it may be sufficient for Chiltern's purposes. In particular Chiltern may have a list of suspect transactions: if your list matches close enough to their list then there's no point in having a meeting, Chiltern will probably give you a settlement figure out of court. The apology needs to be your words - not least because you've been somewhat vague as to exactly what you have done, but there are hundreds of examples in this forum to help. Once you have drafted up something and shared it here, then you will get good advice as to any improvements.

 

[furlong]

This is the third current thread on the forum where Chiltern is telling the court that some of its stations are not Compulsory Ticket Areas - contrary to what several of us believed.

In this case it claims that the platforms at Marylebone are not part of a CTA.

 

[elephant1]

This is the third current thread on the forum where Chiltern is telling the court that some of its stations are not Compulsory Ticket Areas - contrary to what several of us believed.

In this case it claims that the platforms at Marylebone are not part of a CTA.

what does this mean?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is the third current thread on the forum where Chiltern is telling the court that some of its stations are not Compulsory Ticket Areas - contrary to what several of us believed.

In this case it claims that the platforms at Marylebone are not part of a CTA.

what does this mean?

Yo might want to have a look at the railway byelaws (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws#control-of-premises-1). Byelaw 17 applies to ‘Compulsory Ticket Areas’ (which some people abbreviate to ‘CTA’). Byelaw 18 applies to ‘Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas’. They look pretty similar, but the important difference in what they mean is in byelaw 24(1):

24. Enforcement​

1. offence and level of fines: any person who breaches any of these byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale

What this means is that if you break the byelaws you can be fined - EXCEPT for byelaw 17.

So for the facts of your case, the railway seem to be in a mess. They say that you broke byelaw 18, but that byelaw only applies to non-compulsory ticket areas, and yet they say you were in a CTA. Maybe they could get round this by changing the charge to byelaw 17 (which does apply to CTAs) but if they do that then byelaw 24(1) says you don’t have to pay a fine.

 

[elephant1]

Yo might want to have a look at the railway byelaws (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws#control-of-premises-1). Byelaw 17 applies to ‘Compulsory Ticket Areas’ (which some people abbreviate to ‘CTA’). Byelaw 18 applies to ‘Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas’. They look pretty similar, but the important difference in what they mean is in byelaw 24(1):



What this means is that if you break the byelaws you can be fined - EXCEPT for byelaw 17.

So for the facts of your case, the railway seem to be in a mess. They say that you broke byelaw 18, but that byelaw only applies to non-compulsory ticket areas, and yet they say you were in a CTA. Maybe they could get round this by changing the charge to byelaw 17 (which does apply to CTAs) but if they do that then byelaw 24(1) says you don’t have to pay a fine.

thank you so much for explaining! would I need to include this in my apologetic email? Also I don’t mind paying a fine but I really really don’t want a criminal record; can this be avoided?

 

[AlbertBeale]

i’ve used the wrong railcard to purchase my train tickets multiple times and have now been issued a letter which says i’m being taken to court? i really don’t want a criminal record i’m only 19, what can i do??

The original query says that the wrong railcard has been used - does that mean that you do have a (different from the JobCentre one) railcard of some sort, which you are eligible for, or in fact you had no railcard at all?

You say you don't mind "paying the fine", but if you pay a fine, that mean you've been prosecuted in court. (Only a court can issue a fine.) What you presumably want is to do a deal (an "out-of-court settlment" it's usually called) with Chiltern Railways to stop them taking you to court in the first place.

The second batch of papers you've uploaded look as though you've already been put into the court system, but this is to frighten you, and to concentrate your mind. As per the first page you've shown, if you contact Chiltern by the deadline they give, you might be able to settle it directly with them and then the court procedure (as in the other paperwork) won't go forward.

Chiltern want to talk to you to confirm how often you're defrauded them. As has been said, if your tickets are all paid in cash, and bought from a machine or ticket office, then there'll be no record of your other trips unless and until you tell them. But if you've bought the tickets online, they can trace your ticketing history, so if you want to persuade them to settle out of court you need to provide your own list of all the journeys concerned, and send it to them very quickly. If you do that you might avoid needing to go and have a formal interview with them, and if your list matches pretty well what they've found from their own researches, that'll be a sign that you've decided to be honest now, and will help persuade them that you won't do it again - which increases the chance they'll settle without going to court.

Note that what they'll expect you to pay to avoid a criminal record will probably be the full single fare for every journey you've made (with no off-peak discount, no railcard discount, no allowance for any saving if you'd had a return ticket, and ignoring what you've already paid for the invalid tickets you used) - which might add up to a large sum - PLUS a 3-figure sum for their administrative costs in dealing with you. And if they offer you a deal, you'll have to pay it all in one go, and pay it very quickly. This might sound like a bad outcome, but if the case went to court it might cost you even more, and you'll have a criminal conviction as well. So the advice is to do your best to settle with them.

Even if you've done this a large number of times, there's still a reasonable chance you can settle without going to court if you're very honest and very co-operative with them from now on.

And concerning the confusion over the byelaws: if you get an out-of-court settlment, then which charges they've originally alleged isn't really the point (both you and they know that you've travelled without paying the proper fare); if you don't settle and they do prosecute, they've got a chance to word the charge correctly before the case gets to court. So don't rely on administrative errors on their part at this stage as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also I don’t mind paying a fine but I really really don’t want a criminal record; can this be avoided?

If by this you mean can you pay the £100 Penalty Fare sum you often see on posters at stations relating to not having a ticket etc the answer is no. Too late for that and these are not often used for suspected deliberate fare evasion.

 

[Hadders]

Looking at the letter Chiltern sent you they are offering you an out of court settlement, if you co-operate with them.

My advice to you is to write a short, concise to Chiltern apologising for your actions. Research your ticket purchasing account to establish how many times you have travelled without the correct ticket and attach the list to your reply. being proactive will probably mean they won't need to interview.

Playing silly buggers about the exact Byelaw and Compulsory Ticket Areas could see Chiltern issue you with a charge under the Regulation of the Railways Act - that is one to avoid as a conviction comes with a 'full fat' criminal record.

 

[elephant1]

The original query says that the wrong railcard has been used - does that mean that you do have a (different from the JobCentre one) railcard of some sort, which you are eligible for, or in fact you had no railcard at all?

You say you don't mind "paying the fine", but if you pay a fine, that mean you've been prosecuted in court. (Only a court can issue a fine.) What you presumably want is to do a deal (an "out-of-court settlment" it's usually called) with Chiltern Railways to stop them taking you to court in the first place.

The second batch of papers you've uploaded look as though you've already been put into the court system, but this is to frighten you, and to concentrate your mind. As per the first page you've shown, if you contact Chiltern by the deadline they give, you might be able to settle it directly with them and then the court procedure (as in the other paperwork) won't go forward.

Chiltern want to talk to you to confirm how often you're defrauded them. As has been said, if your tickets are all paid in cash, and bought from a machine or ticket office, then there'll be no record of your other trips unless and until you tell them. But if you've bought the tickets online, they can trace your ticketing history, so if you want to persuade them to settle out of court you need to provide your own list of all the journeys concerned, and send it to them very quickly. If you do that you might avoid needing to go and have a formal interview with them, and if your list matches pretty well what they've found from their own researches, that'll be a sign that you've decided to be honest now, and will help persuade them that you won't do it again - which increases the chance they'll settle without going to court.

Note that what they'll expect you to pay to avoid a criminal record will probably be the full single fare for every journey you've made (with no off-peak discount, no railcard discount, no allowance for any saving if you'd had a return ticket, and ignoring what you've already paid for the invalid tickets you used) - which might add up to a large sum - PLUS a 3-figure sum for their administrative costs in dealing with you. And if they offer you a deal, you'll have to pay it all in one go, and pay it very quickly. This might sound like a bad outcome, but if the case went to court it might cost you even more, and you'll have a criminal conviction as well. So the advice is to do your best to settle with them.

Even if you've done this a large number of times, there's still a reasonable chance you can settle without going to court if you're very honest and very co-operative with them from now on.

And concerning the confusion over the byelaws: if you get an out-of-court settlment, then which charges they've originally alleged isn't really the point (both you and they know that you've travelled without paying the proper fare); if you don't settle and they do prosecute, they've got a chance to word the charge correctly before the case gets to court. So don't rely on administrative errors on their part at this stage as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.
thank you so much!! If I send an email, will I avoid a criminal reco

thank you so much!! If i send the email, will I avoid a criminal record?

 

[AlterEgo]

thank you so much!! If i send the email, will I avoid a criminal record?

You might. It depends if Chiltern are willing to settle. There is no certainty with these matters.

 

[AlbertBeale]

thank you so much!! If i send the email, will I avoid a criminal record?

If your e-mail persuades them to settle out of court and stop the court proceedings, and if you then quickly pay them the (possibly large) sum they ask for, then yes of course. If the case doesn't reach court, then you can't get a criminal record; any out-of-court settlment is a private matter between you and the railway company. (But of course such a settlment will affect you if you're ever caught travelling on any train without the right ticket again; they'll find this case and then be less likely to settle without prosecuting in any future instance.)

As people have said, you need to write a letter which includes your own admission of the tickets which they're no doubt already traced (assuming you bought previous tickets electronically; you haven't answered that question), and it needs to persuade them that you're genuinely contrite and won't do it again. If you draft your letter and let people on this forum see it (with personal details, and the specifics of the list of tickets, redacted of course), then you will get advice about whether you've got the letter in a good shape to help persuade them.

And if you are eligible for any type of railcard, and you buy one straight away (assuming you don't already have one - you haven't answered the question about whether you have any railcard at all, as implied by your original post), you can mention that when you write to them; that will encourage them to think that you're less likely to claim a railcard you don't have in the future.

 

[Snow1964]

You need to understand that the Out of Court settlement can benefit both sides (Op because it avoids extra Court costs, and criminal record), and rail company because it's money in bank with no further staff time processing it. If it goes to court costs both sides more and delays them receiving compensation.

But they obviously have to take a view if you have learnt your lesson, and won't do it again, and are sorry with hindsight. So that is why you need to do the reply apologising, saying you think you owe them for X journeys, and realise covering an admin fee is reasonable.

If you are eligible for another railcard, eg 15-25, adding a line saying you have since bought one and enclosing a copy, won't do you any harm, in fact strengthens the look of doing it correctly since the event.

 

[island]

Playing silly buggers about the exact Byelaw and Compulsory Ticket Areas could see Chiltern issue you with a charge under the Regulation of the Railways Act - that is one to avoid as a conviction comes with a 'full fat' criminal record.

The OP has until 13 June to reply. From 9 June Chiltern won't be able to issue any more charges, as the time limit for doing so will have expired. It seems to me that replying in that time window would avoid the consequences you suggest.

Raising a defence that they have charged the OP with an offence that they didn't commit is quite reasonable, and it's disappointing that you chose to describe this entirely valid course of action as "playing silly buggers". It's not straightforward or low-risk, sure, but Chiltern have (presumably) got properly qualified people doing this who have at best made careless mistakes and deserve to face the consequences of them.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP has until 13 June to reply. From 9 June Chiltern won't be able to issue any more charges, as the time limit for doing so will have expired.

To be clear, if a mistake has been made in laying the wrong charge (which was issued within the 6 months), and Chiltern seek to correct that, while prosecuting the same incident, this would count as "new papers" and would be considered out of time?

 

[island]

To be clear, if a mistake has been made in laying the wrong charge (which was issued within the 6 months), and Chiltern seek to correct that, while prosecuting the same incident, this would count as "new papers" and would be considered out of time?

They can seek to correct it outside the time limit, but they cannot (as I understand it) substitute a charge that constitutes an imprisonable offence, which s5 RRA 1889 is, into proceedings commenced by SJPN.

 

[Hadders]

The OP has until 13 June to reply. From 9 June Chiltern won't be able to issue any more charges, as the time limit for doing so will have expired. It seems to me that replying in that time window would avoid the consequences you suggest.

Raising a defence that they have charged the OP with an offence that they didn't commit is quite reasonable, and it's disappointing that you chose to describe this entirely valid course of action as "playing silly buggers". It's not straightforward or low-risk, sure, but Chiltern have (presumably) got properly qualified people doing this who have at best made careless mistakes and deserve to face the consequences of them.

If the OP wants the issue to go away then my view is the most straightforward and pragmatic way is to co-operate with Chiltern and seek an out of court settlement, which Chiltern have said they are minded to offer.

It may well be that Chiltern have charged the wrong offence, but if the OP intents to persue this argument then they need to be 100% certain that High Wycombe station is a Compulsory Ticket Area.

If Chiltern decided to proceed with the Byelaw 18 charge regardless, and the OP needed to argue this in court, then I would strongly recommend using a solicitor specialising in railway ticketing matters. This won't come cheap and might even cost more than an out of court settlement.

I would love to see railway companies given a 'bloody nose' for getting this sort of thing wrong. I agree it isn't straightforward or low risk and consequently it's only right we are very clear about the risks involved when giving advice.