Help Summons received Thameslink

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cathyl

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sorry for long post
my son and his friend were returning from a night out in london they had purchased a ticket at 10pm in london to return home they believed it was a 24 hour ticket and cost £16.90 .
They returned on the 7am train and when the train reached St Albans 2 ticket inspectors got on , he explained that they had tickets which they believed to be valid but the inspector said it was out of date , both boys were adamant they had done nothing wrong the inspector reported him and my son responded via letter explaining the circumstances and send bank statement showing purchase of ticket as the copy of the witness statement from the inspector is not a true reflection at all of what happened that morning . Today he has now received a court summons ! so obviously they decided to take it further.
2 questions
1/The charge is having entered a train for the purpose of travelling ,did not have a ticket entitling travel.
contrary to byelaw 18(1)of the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 etc is this a criminal offence on recordable ?
2/ Can he try and appeal once more to the railway or is the summons the final thing.?
he had never been in trouble and is now concerned if found guilty he will have a criminal conviction , also his friend who had the same ticket has not been summoned .
any help on a way forward would be appreciated.
 
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Agent_c

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sorry for long post
my son and his friend were returning from a night out in london they had purchased a ticket at 10pm in london to return home they believed it was a 24 hour ticket and cost £16.90 .
They returned on the 7am train and when the train reached St Albans 2 ticket inspectors got on , he explained that they had tickets which they believed to be valid but the inspector said it was out of date , both boys were adamant they had done nothing wrong the inspector reported him and my son responded via letter explaining the circumstances and send bank statement showing purchase of ticket as the copy of the witness statement from the inspector is not a true reflection at all of what happened that morning . Today he has now received a court summons ! so obviously they decided to take it further.
2 questions
1/The charge is having entered a train for the purpose of travelling ,did not have a ticket entitling travel.
contrary to byelaw 18(1)of the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 etc is this a criminal offence on recordable ?
2/ Can he try and appeal once more to the railway or is the summons the final thing.?
he had never been in trouble and is now concerned if found guilty he will have a criminal conviction , also his friend who had the same ticket has not been summoned .
any help on a way forward would be appreciated.

What exactly is the name on the ticket (Anytime Single, Anytime Day Single, etc)?
 

sonic2009

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Please could you provide more details? Stations travelled from and to?

Ticket held & Ticket Type as Agent C has explained.
 

DaveNewcastle

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That is NOT a recordable offence.
It is a Railway Byelaw and is not included in the list of 'recordable offences'.

At this stage, there is no point in making a further 'appeal' to the Company, because now that a Summons has been issued by the Court, then the case has been listed for a hearing and that is what the Magistrates will do. They will hear evidence from both sides and make a Decision - if 'guilty', they will also pass a 'sentence' (i.e. fine, costs, compensation, victim surcharge etc.) However, there is still an opportunity to attempt to reach an administrative settlement with the Company - some Companies are more amenable than others, and a settlement can be achieved at any time. I find that a solicitor - any solicitor who works in Criminal Defence - can be more successful in reaching a settlement than the passenger can by themselves. This is because the solicitor can immediately assess the evidence, the costs, the benefits, and the risks which determine point at which a case can switch between one to prosecute, one to abandon (and to return to the instructing solicitor), or one to settle.

Even if the Company say that it will not consider an Out-of-Court settlement, it is still possible to speak to the Prosecutor on the day of the hearing and reach a settlement just before your case is heard; if accepted, they will simply not offer any Evidence to support the prosecution, at which point it falls away. If not accepted, the Prosecution would continue; but at that moment, you would be wishing for legal representation, urgently - someone who knows the procedures and the law, how to turn this impending crisis around in the face of all the evidence that has been prepared in advance.

In you are still with me, then you'll probably see why it would be worth instructing a solicitor sooner rather than later.
Please could you provide more details? Stations travelled from and to?

Ticket held & Ticket Type as Agent C has explained.
I'm not clear why sonic2009 is interested in the ticket types, though I'll guess it is to assist in making a judgement of whether the two Inspectors and also the subsequent Investigating Officer had made a correct assessment of the ticket's expiry on the night of the day before.
But, if I am correct, and :
even if the ticket was indeed as valid on that train on the following day as it was the day before; and,
even if the two Inspectors also thought it was not valid on the following day; and,
even if they all did make statements to confirm that interpretation; and,
even if the investigating officer, having read all these notes, also thinks it was not valid; and,
even if you are even considering challenging their statements in a Court; and,
even if you are unfamiliar with the relevant legislation and case law;​
then, surely we reach the same conclusion :- that you need professional assistance.
So, while I can see clearly why sonic2009 might be intereted to know if any rail staff might have erred, and how that might assist you, I do not see that a finding of error by three or more railway staff becomes something of benefit to you unless you have someone to make the appropriate representations on your behalf - which simply brings me back to the same conclusion - that you need professional assistance. Railway Companies, just like any other body can and do make mistakes, but their procedures are more likeky to confirm what they seek to find, rather than what is technically and precisely the logical interpetation. And most fare evaders have no interest or knowledge in the arcane details of ticket validity - they usually just want to travel whe it suits them by paying as little as they can - which is often nil. What benefit you'll receive from answering sonic2009's questions is not at all clear to me, but I'm sure I will have missed something.
 
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ian959

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Presumably your son purchased an Anytime Day return ticket, the conditions of which are shown on the National Rail website:

When and where the ticket can be used
Anytime Day (Single and Return) tickets must be used on the date shown on your ticket and up to 04:29 the following day.
Anytime Single must be used within 2 days of the date shown on the ticket and up until 04:29 after the last day of validity.
For Anytime Return tickets, the outward journey must be made within 5 days and up until 04:29 after the last day of validity; the return portion must be used within one calendar month and up until 04:29 after the last day of validity.

If this is so, then no further appeals are worthwhile as he used the ticket after the specified time.
 
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Haywain

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Presumably your son purchased an Anytime Day return ticket
I suspect it was an Anytime Day Single ticket. Not that knowing is any help as there are no Anytime Singles for Thameslink destinations northbound from London. Whilst it no help to the OP whatsoever, it's a ticket that shouldn't really be offered at that time of day when the Off-Peak ticket would do exactly the same thing!
 

Romilly

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A one-way ticket from London to somewhere that involves travelling via St Albans is likely to be a London to Luton ticket if it costs £16.90

Such a ticket is an Anytime Day Single and if bought at 10pm is only valid until 4.29am the following morning (unless, when buying it, the passenger specifies that it is for travel the next day).

If that analysis is correct, it would seem that there is no basis for arguing that the OP's son had a valid ticket, with the result that I cannot better the advice already given by DaveNewcastle.
 

island

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The ticket printed will have said "valid until" a date, and the passenger chose to use it on a later date. That's a criminal offence.

Often, mistakes like this are handled by a Penalty Fare rather than prosecution, so I wonder if the passenger may have given "attitude" to the Authorised Collector or otherwise convinced him to do something more serious.
 

cathyl

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Hi
'Romilly' was correct ticket was only valid until 4.29 am the next day I believe.
Anyway update is that it has all been sorted outside of court and paid in full.
Massive thankyou to all those of you who helped and advised us to approach the company and see if they would settle I would never have thought to do that.
 

Romilly

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Thank you for coming back to let us know, and glad that it's all now been resolved.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Good to hear it. But just a word of caution . . . . as a Summons to hear the case has been issued by the Court, and the Magistrates will be expecting to hear the case on the day stated on the summons, then it is possible that the Court office is not aware of your 'settlement' and will still expect to try the accusation against you. It's also possible that the Prosecutor has already been instructed to present the evidence against you during that hearing and is also unaware of the 'settlement'.

I strongly advise checking with the Court office to ask if the matter has been withdrawn (which I will doubt), and if not, firstly leave them a written note to put on the file that a settlement has been reached on whatever date it was, and then either, get back in touch with the Company to ask for their written assurance that their Prosecutor has been instructed to present no evidence in the case against you, or even, to be quite sure, still attend the Court on the day Summonsed just in case your name is read out, at which point you can stand up to explain that the matter has been resolved.

Hopefully, the Prosecutor has been told not to proceed with your file, but I would like you to be absolutely sure about that.
 

Hep1993

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12 May 2016
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sorry for long post
my son and his friend were returning from a night out in london they had purchased a ticket at 10pm in london to return home they believed it was a 24 hour ticket and cost £16.90 .
They returned on the 7am train and when the train reached St Albans 2 ticket inspectors got on , he explained that they had tickets which they believed to be valid but the inspector said it was out of date , both boys were adamant they had done nothing wrong the inspector reported him and my son responded via letter explaining the circumstances and send bank statement showing purchase of ticket as the copy of the witness statement from the inspector is not a true reflection at all of what happened that morning . Today he has now received a court summons ! so obviously they decided to take it further.
2 questions
1/The charge is having entered a train for the purpose of travelling ,did not have a ticket entitling travel.
contrary to byelaw 18(1)of the railway byelaws made under section 219 of the transport act 2000 etc is this a criminal offence on recordable ?
2/ Can he try and appeal once more to the railway or is the summons the final thing.?
he had never been in trouble and is now concerned if found guilty he will have a criminal conviction , also his friend who had the same ticket has not been summoned .
any help on a way forward would be appreciated.

Hi
'Romilly' was correct ticket was only valid until 4.29 am the next day I believe.
Anyway update is that it has all been sorted outside of court and paid in full.
Massive thankyou to all those of you who helped and advised us to approach the company and see if they would settle I would never have thought to do that.


How did you manage to get it sorted when already receiving a court summons,
Would be really greatful for a reply or anybody else who knows how to settle it out of court when receiving a court summons

Thanks
 

Puffing Devil

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How did you manage to get it sorted when already receiving a court summons,
Would be really greatful for a reply or anybody else who knows how to settle it out of court when receiving a court summons

Thanks

If you post full details of your case in a new thread you'll be able to get appropriate advice from the forum.
 
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