help with MG11

[Raghad]

Hi, I'm wondering if I could get some help, I was issued with an MG11 yesterday when I was travelling from huddersfield to Manchester. I didn't know im not allowed to purchase a ticket on the train. I was rushing to the station and saw the barriers open so thought i'd get the ticket on the train or when I arrive to Manchester. then when the train conductor approached me and asked for the ticket I was buying one on my phone to show it to him then he took my phone off me and said im not allowed to do that and that im convicted with evading a ticket. I didn't say anything and he didn't offer selling me a ticket either he immediately took my D.O.B, name and address and printed a long receipt with TPE reference number on it and his badge number too. it said witness statement. I had no intention for evading the ticket like obviously i'll need one to get out of manchester station but he was really cross and said TPE will be in touch and now I'm really worried about the report he submitted and I don't know what to do. I was going to buy one I'm not trying to get away without a ticket. I don't want any caution on my record and I've never committed an offence before in my life. I'm happy to pay a fine but I just don't know what to expect. Hope someone can help
thanks

 

[najaB]

then when the train conductor approached me and asked for the ticket I was buying one on my phone to show it to him then he took my phone off me and said im not allowed to do that and that im convicted with evading a ticket.

He was correct. Mobile and electronic tickets have to be paid for and activated (where applicable) before boarding. To put your mind at rest a bit though, you haven't been convicted of anything - we are a long way from that.

I had no intention for evading the ticket like obviously i'll need one to get out of manchester station but he was really cross and said TPE will be in touch and now I'm really worried about the report he submitted and I don't know what to do.

The only thing you can do at this stage is wait. It can take anything up to a couple of months before you'll hear any more about it. That said, two to three weeks is more typical.

I was going to buy one I'm not trying to get away without a ticket.

The problem you have is that the behviour you demonstrated (only buying a ticket when the guard did a ticket check) is indistinguishable from the behviour of someone who was trying to get away without paying.

I don't want any caution on my record and I've never committed an offence before in my life. I'm happy to pay a fine but I just don't know what to expect. Hope someone can help

Your aim is to avoid a fine and settle the matter between yourself and the train company. As such, make a clear set of notes about what happened on the day, then when you get the letter reply to TPE explaining what happened, acknowledge that you were in the wrong and offer to recompense them for the fare and costs incurred to investigate your case.

 

[Raghad]

Thanks for your reply, I had no idea about the rule regarding electronic tickets and also I was gonna purchase one either way as I need to leave the station in Manchester I was naive I didn’t know I was breaking the law. I’ve sent them an email already apologising about the situation. Im more than happy to settle the situation without court, I hope they write to me soon I literally can’t sleep from guilt and worry

He was correct. Mobile and electronic tickets have to be paid for and activated (where applicable) before boarding. To put your mind at rest a bit though, you haven't been convicted of anything - we are a long way from that.
The only thing you can do at this stage is wait. It can take anything up to a couple of months before you'll hear any more about it. That said, two to three weeks is more typical.

The problem you have is that the behviour you demonstrated (only buying a ticket when the guard did a ticket check) is indistinguishable from the behviour of someone who was trying to get away without paying.
Your aim is to avoid a fine and settle the matter between yourself and the train company. As such, make a clear set of notes about what happened on the day, then when you get the letter reply to TPE explaining what happened, acknowledge that you were in the wrong and offer to recompense them for the fare and costs incurred to investigate your case.

hanks

 

[30907]

It is worth adding that TPE policy is that the conductor will sell you an undiscounted Anytime fare on board in these circumstances. It's unfortunate that you chose another option that isn't allowed.
Meanwhile, wait for TPE to contact you and come back here for any more advice you want. I am afraid it may be some time before that happens.

 

[Raghad]

He didn’t offer me the option of buying one, he immediately issued the MG11, do u reckon TPE will ask me to pay a fine first before escalating the issue?

 

[Haywain]

He didn’t offer me the option of buying one, he immediately issued the MG11, do u reckon TPE will ask me to pay a fine first before escalating the issue?

TPE are likely to want a payment from you but that will be an alternative to escalating the matter. If the matter is escalated it will be to allow a fine to be imposed by the courts if you are convicted of an offence.

 

[furlong]

TPE clearly advertise on their website that you can choose to buy from the conductor on board - but only an Anytime ticket which may cost you more than buying before boarding - so it is published company policy that you should have been sold such a ticket. Even now that is all you should pay unless the company has some additional evidence that makes it look like you were trying to avoid paying. Merely boarding the train without a ticket is unlikely to matter as the company's advertising makes it clear that this is OK (and if you were prosecuted you should seek legal advice on the right way to make this argument as it's a bit complicated). Note that most other train companies take a different view on this point. Similarly trying to buy a ticket on the app probably wouldn't matter unless you were aware that it would not be a valid ticket as you should have bought it 10 minutes before departure - the ticket wouldn't have been valid and you'd still have been asked to buy an Anytime ticket in line with the company's advertising..

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/train-tickets/how-to-get-my-train-ticket

No ticket
If you board a train without a valid ticket at a station where buying facilities are available, you'll be charged the Anytime fare for your journey and won't be able to use any railcard discounts.

Buy an e-ticket and download it straight to your phone. These train tickets are available to buy up to 10 minutes before your train's scheduled departure time.

 

[furlong]

I suggest you take a copy of that website page (in case it gets changed later if they already changed their policy but forgot to update that page).

 

[najaB]

TPE clearly advertise on their website that you can choose to buy from the conductor on board - but only an Anytime ticket which may cost you more than buying before boarding - so it is published company policy that you should have been sold such a ticket.

Had the OP not been trying to pay for an electronic ticket while on board I would agree.

Even now that is all you should pay unless the company has some additional evidence that makes it look like you were trying to avoid paying.

According to their policy, the undiscounted Anytime fare is the only fare that will be sold on board. So if the OP was attempting to pay for a cheaper fare then they have sufficient evidence right there.

 

[scrapy]

As you say you needed a ticket to get through the barriers in Manchester. Was the ticket you had attempted to buy on your phone one that covered your whole journey from Huddersfield to Manchester? Did you attempt to buy your ticket as soon as you boarded or once you saw the conductor coming down the train?

It's unusual for the conductor to issue an MG11 when someone is willing to pay rather than simply sell you a ticket. So I'm wondering if there are any agrivating factors not mentioned in you original post?

Common examples of this are buying tickets from a station with a lower fare just to get through the barriers e.g. Stalybridge to Manchester. Or buying tickets with a discount you are not entitled to.

The other alternative is it was a revenue protection inspector who you spoke to rather than the conductor (especially as you were given a badge number). Again in TPE they generally issue tickets along with warnings unless any agrivating factors and they suspect intent to avoid fare. If there were any other factors it's in your interests to disclose them and hopefully people won't judge, but a RORA prosecution which lands you with a criminal record is more likely, than with a bylaws prosecution and therefore advice given is going to be different.

 

[GusB]

Hi, I'm wondering if I could get some help, I was issued with an MG11 yesterday when I was travelling from huddersfield to Manchester. I didn't know im not allowed to purchase a ticket on the train. I was rushing to the station and saw the barriers open so thought i'd get the ticket on the train or when I arrive to Manchester. then when the train conductor approached me and asked for the ticket I was buying one on my phone to show it to him then he took my phone off me and said im not allowed to do that and that im convicted with evading a ticket. I didn't say anything and he didn't offer selling me a ticket either he immediately took my D.O.B, name and address and printed a long receipt with TPE reference number on it and his badge number too. it said witness statement. I had no intention for evading the ticket like obviously i'll need one to get out of manchester station but he was really cross and said TPE will be in touch and now I'm really worried about the report he submitted and I don't know what to do. I was going to buy one I'm not trying to get away without a ticket. I don't want any caution on my record and I've never committed an offence before in my life. I'm happy to pay a fine but I just don't know what to expect. Hope someone can help
thanks

Nobody else seems to have picked up on this, but did the member of staff in question have the right to take anyone's phone?

 

[Raghad]

As you say you needed a ticket to get through the barriers in Manchester. Was the ticket you had attempted to buy on your phone one that covered your whole journey from Huddersfield to Manchester? Did you attempt to buy your ticket as soon as you boarded or once you saw the conductor coming down the train?

It's unusual for the conductor to issue an MG11 when someone is willing to pay rather than simply sell you a ticket. So I'm wondering if there are any agrivating factors not mentioned in you original post?

Common examples of this are buying tickets from a station with a lower fare just to get through the barriers e.g. Stalybridge to Manchester. Or buying tickets with a discount you are not entitled to.

The other alternative is it was a revenue protection inspector who you spoke to rather than the conductor (especially as you were given a badge number). Again in TPE they generally issue tickets along with warnings unless any agrivating factors and they suspect intent to avoid fare. If there were any other factors it's in your interests to disclose them and hopefully people won't judge, but a RORA prosecution which lands you with a criminal record is more likely, than with a bylaws prosecution and therefore advice given is going to be different.

I’m going through a stressful family situation so When I jumped on the train and sat down I put my headphones on and closed my eyes as in just resting trying to think through my problem (u know when u close your eyes and think, dont wanna have a dead staring eyes look on my face whilst on the train)and due to that I didn't hear the conductor coming, he tapped on my shoulder and accused me with pretending to sleep which wasn’t the case so I said sorry give me a minute and that’s when I was buying the ticket on my phone from Huddersfield to Manchester (standard ticket non discounted) he then pulled my phone of my hand and got angry with me so I didn’t say anything and did what he told me regarding details. I didn’t mean to upset him or to breach any law and as I said either way I needed a ticket for the barriers to leave Manchester. Thanks

 

[Raghad]

Had the OP not been trying to pay for an electronic ticket while on board I would agree.
According to their policy, the undiscounted Anytime fare is the only fare that will be sold on board. So if the OP was attempting to pay for a cheaper fare then they have sufficient evidence right there.

I wasn’t tho, The price is fixed from Huddersfield to Manchester regardless the time of travel, and when he issued me the MG11 I took my bank card out as I thought it was a ticket what he issued me with. Only until I got home and looked it up that I realised what he did, I emailed the revenue explaining my situation and apologised however it said it can take up to 10 days for them to reply to my email

 

[800002]

If he touched you - that can be considered a form of assult.
And he certainly has no right to remove your personal beolongings from you.

This is sounding much more serious than other cases.

 

[cuccir]

When I jumped on the train and sat down I put my headphones on and closed my eyes as in just resting trying to think through my problem (u know when u close your eyes and think, dont wanna have a dead staring eyes look on my face whilst on the train)and due to that I didn't hear the conductor coming, he tapped on my shoulder and accused me with pretending to sleep which wasn’t the case so I said sorry give me a minute and that’s when I was buying the ticket on my phone from Huddersfield to Manchester (standard ticket non discounted

This puts things in a slightly different light and explains the situation a bit. The guard thought that you were trying to avoid paying for a fare by trying to avoid interacting with him. This is why he didn't then offer you the opportunity to buy a ticket.

I think you need to wait for TPE to write to you to see what they say. Your case is a bit of a grey area: TPE do allow you to buy on board, but by looking asleep your behaviour does look like what some people do to try and avoid paying.

When they write to you, come back to this page and we can advise you: I think the best thing is to say you intended to pay and to mention that TPE advertise you can do this on board. Offer them the fare for the journey and see what they say. If you really want to try and avoid prosecution, offer to cover the costs that they have incurred so far in investigating this case.

If he touched you - that can be considered a form of assult.

It can, but only if it led to the person being touched feeling physically threatened. We only have one side of the story so should be cautious in judging what happened but I agree that the guard's conduct does not sound very appropriate. You could raise a complaint, but note that wouldn't necessarily affect the fare evasion investigation.

 

[some bloke]

Could you please say more about why you chose to start buying the ticket on the phone while he was waiting, if that's what happened?

If you upload a picture of his statement (with identifying details removed) people on here may spot useful details.

 

[Raghad]

If he touched you - that can be considered a form of assult.
And he certainly has no right to remove your personal beolongings from you.

This is sounding much more serious than other cases.

He tapped on shoulder to get my attention and he did take my phone off my hand to stop me buying a ticket, I just don’t want the case to escalate to court I’m happy paying the fine and stuff although the conduct could’ve handled the situation in a more approachable way. Thanks for your advice

 

[Raghad]

This puts things in a slightly different light and explains the situation a bit. The guard thought that you were trying to avoid paying for a fare by trying to avoid interacting with him. This is why he didn't then offer you the opportunity to buy a ticket.

I think you need to wait for TPE to write to you to see what they say. Your case is a bit of a grey area: TPE do allow you to buy on board, but by looking asleep your behaviour does look like what some people do to try and avoid paying.

When they write to you, come back to this page and we can advise you: I think the best thing is to say you intended to pay and to mention that TPE advertise you can do this on board. Offer them the fare for the journey and see what they say. If you really want to try and avoid prosecution, offer to cover the costs that they have incurred so far in investigating this case.



It can, but only if it led to the person being touched feeling physically threatened. We only have one side of the story so should be cautious in judging what happened but I agree that the guard's conduct does not sound very appropriate. You could raise a complaint, but note that wouldn't necessarily affect the fare evasion investigation.

Thanks a lot for your advice, do you reckon writing them a letter explaining myself would help? I’ve already emailed them but it could take up to 10 days before they get back to me according to the automated email I received

 

[Raghad]

Could you please say more about why you chose to start buying the ticket on the phone while he was waiting, if that's what happened?

If you upload a picture of his statement (with identifying details removed) people on here may spot useful details.

That’s what he issued me with and I thought it was a ticket hence I didn’t ask him again could u give me a ticket however until I got home that I realised what he did after looking it up online

 

[najaB]

Nobody else seems to have picked up on this, but did the member of staff in question have the right to take anyone's phone?

To take the phone, no. To ask to see it, of course.

I wasn’t tho, The price is fixed from Huddersfield to Manchester regardless the time of travel,

Depending on what ticket you were attempting to buy, that may or may not be the case. There are two return tickets which would be valid on a TPE service, it may have appeared you were trying to pay for the Off Peak Return (£15.10) rather than the Anytime Return (£21.30). Of course, if you were not returning then you're correct that only one fare is valid on the TPE service so it would help any defence to show that you had no reason to return to Huddersfield within the validity period of the ticket.

 

[Raghad]

He took it off me so that scared me a bit then he took my bank card and returned a while after although he didn’t use it, so he gave me that mixed signal that he issued me with a ticket where in reality he issued me with an MG11

 

[some bloke]

do you reckon writing them a letter explaining myself would help? I’ve already emailed them

It may be that he thought you were being uncooperative because your mind was occupied with other things.

It's still perhaps not clear why you chose to buy online while he was waiting, if that's what happened. Was there a reason why you thought you couldn't buy from him?

There isn't any detail on his "statement" - would you like to upload your email to them, again with identifying details removed?

 

[Raghad]

It may be that he thought you were being uncooperative because your mind was occupied with other things. It's still perhaps not clear why you chose to buy online while he was waiting, if that's what happened. Was there a reason why you thought you couldn't buy from him?

As there isn't any detail on his "statement", would you like to upload your email to them, again with identifying details removed?

It’s because I didn’t know buying mobile tickets on the train is not allowed and I’m really not good with paper ticket as I lose em immediately so as a second nature I reached to my phone to buy one (which apparently offended him) but I didn’t have the intention. The fact he was took my details and bank card made me think he was issuing me a train ticket hence I didn’t ask again for one

 

[Raghad]

It may be that he thought you were being uncooperative because your mind was occupied with other things.

It's still perhaps not clear why you chose to buy online while he was waiting, if that's what happened. Was there a reason why you thought you couldn't buy from him?

There isn't any detail on his "statement" - would you like to upload your email to them, again with identifying details removed?

Ya but he was writing stuff in on his phone which he used to take a pic of my uni ID card so I dont know if he’s sent something already to the revenue. Here’s the email I sent

 

[some bloke]

Thank you. That seems to me a pretty good email.

It's important to see things from their point of view - if someone says they think they can buy online from the train, but doesn't do it until the conductor comes, it does look suspect. When you say moments after the train departed, can you be more specific?

Unfortunately in cases where they choose to prosecute, they have six months to begin the process with the court and the passenger could get a summons even later. But usually people get a letter asking for their version much earlier, though often not as early as they would like.

You could now write down as far as you are able, exactly what the sequence of events was including what was said. This may help for later when you write again.

I'd like to think companies will respond to an early email rather than just take a long time sending a request for the passenger's version - whether this would happen in the case of TPE, others on here could comment on. It may be impractical to expect a very quick response anyway as it may take some time for the information to reach the relevant staff.

 

[Raghad]

I’m just really angry at myself I genuinely didn’t have the intention of breaking the law and I’m so worried that they now won’t consider out of court settlement based on what I’ve been advised. I tried calling the revenue but no one is picking up the phone, I tried all day yesterday

 

[najaB]

I’m just really angry at myself I genuinely didn’t have the intention of breaking the law and I’m so worried that they now won’t consider out of court settlement based on what I’ve been advised.

Remember that it's in the TOC's best interest to settle rather than prosecute. So as long as you are cooperative and demonstrate remorse it's more likely than not that they will settle.

 

[Raghad]

Remember that it's in the TOC's best interest to settle rather than prosecute. So as long as you are cooperative and demonstrate remorse it's more likely than not that they will settle.

Thank you all for your help! I just hope they write to me soon as I’ve had so many sleepless nights worrying about it. I appreciate your time

 

[Raghad]

Thank you. That seems to me a pretty good email.

It's important to see things from their point of view - if someone says they think they can buy online from the train, but doesn't do it until the conductor comes, it does look suspect. When you say moments after the train departed, can you be more specific?

Unfortunately in cases where they choose to prosecute, they have six months to begin the process with the court and the passenger could get a summons even later. But usually people get a letter asking for their version much earlier, though often not as early as they would like.

You could now write down as far as you are able, exactly what the sequence of events was including what was said. This may help for later when you write again.

I'd like to think companies will respond to an early email rather than just take a long time sending a request for the passenger's version - whether this would happen in the case of TPE, others on here could comment on. It may be impractical to expect a very quick response anyway as it may take some time for the information to reach the relevant staff.

Thanks for your advice, hopefully they will agree on settlement without prosecution

 

[yorkie]

If what is said is a true account, then I would try to reach a settlement with TPE to avoid a case of fare evasion going to court; the evidence is stacked against you and - even if you did not intend to avoid the fare - your actions could clearly interpreted as an attempt to avoid the fare.

As for the allegation of taking the phone from you, that is serious and should be investigated (if you want it to be), but is arguably a separate matter. It's unclear if the bank card was taken with or without consent, but again that is a potential cause for concern.

(By the way, you can click the Reply button from multiple posts into one post, so there is no need to make separate consecutive posts to the forum if you are replying to multiple posts)