help with MG11

[Raghad]

If what is said is a true account, then I would try to reach a settlement with TPE to avoid a case of fare evasion going to court; the evidence is stacked against you and - even if you did not intend to avoid the fare - your actions could clearly interpreted as an attempt to avoid the fare.


As for the allegation of taking the phone from you, that is serious and should be investigated (if you want it to be), but is arguably a separate matter. It's unclear if the bank card was taken with or without consent, but again that is a potential cause for concern.

(By the way, you can click the Reply button from multiple posts into one post, so there is no need to make separate consecutive posts to the forum if you are replying to multiple posts)

I’ve mentioned the settlement without court in my my email so hopefully they will accept it thanks

 

[cuccir]

To be honest, there's a good chance that your case may not have been processed yet - that is, that it will exist as a set of notes and whoever gets your email may not yet have access to that. In other words, don't be too disappointed if the initial result from TPE is "we are investigating the matter" - there should still be a chance to reiterate settling the matter when they write to you.

 

[cuccir]

I tried calling the revenue but no one is picking up the phone, I tried all day yesterday

Similarly, there is a very strong chance they won't yet be able to discuss your case over the phone if the record of it hasn't been passed on yet.

I know it's hard and frustrating to wait, but try and push this as far as you can to the back of your mind until you hear back from TPE.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

My apologies if you have already found this or something similar, but if you are worrying then please try not to! Below is a slightly edited version of something I posted on a similar thread about the worst that could happen: as you will see, even if this goes the whole way and you are convicted, it's not the end of the world.

To try and make sure this is kept in proportion (and with apologies if this is information you already know) let's look at the worst case scenario.

That is that you are prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act. A conviction will result in you having to pay a fine, court costs and victim surcharge - overall a few hundreds of pounds.

That will be painful, and you will also have a criminal record. The consensus here is that the conviction will be 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act after a year, so after that time there will be no obligation to mention it, or for it to show up on a standard DBS check.

But it will stay visible for enhanced DBS checks. But my understanding is that very few employers /volunteer organisations are too worried if one isolated incident shows up on an enhanced DBS check. Generally, they understand that people can make mistakes. What worries them is if people consistently make mistakes - that suggests a worrying lack of judgement.

So in the worst case, you will face a financial penalty (the fine and so on). But unless you have a particularly strict employer (you're a lawyer, or work in finance) you won't lose your job or be blocked from applying for jobs. Above all, you won't go to prison.

 

[Raghad]

My apologies if you have already found this or something similar, but if you are worrying then please try not to! Below is a slightly edited version of something I posted on a similar thread about the worst that could happen: as you will see, even if this goes the whole way and you are convicted, it's not the end of the world.

Thanks for your reassurance but based on my job I really can’t have anything on my record as I work with patients I really hope it gets sorted without court order

 

[Raghad]

To be honest, there's a good chance that your case may not have been processed yet - that is, that it will exist as a set of notes and whoever gets your email may not yet have access to that. In other words, don't be too disappointed if the initial result from TPE is "we are investigating the matter" - there should still be a chance to reiterate settling the matter when they write to you.

I hope I hear back from them soon, thanks for your advice

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for your reassurance but based on my job I really can’t have anything on my record as I work with patients I really hope it gets sorted without court order

And to help set your mind at rest, you may want to read what the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) has to say at https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/:

Assessing the seriousness of convictions and cautions

If the criminal offending was directly linked to the nurse or midwife’s professional practice, it’s very likely this would be serious enough to affect their fitness to practise.

For example, offences that involved neglecting, exploiting, assaulting or otherwise harming patients are so serious that it may be harder for the nurse or midwife to remediate. In these cases it’s more likely that we’ll need to take regulatory action to maintain professional standards and public confidence in nurses and midwives.

If the criminal offending took place in the nurse or midwife’s private life, and there’s no clear risk to patients or members of the public, then it is unlikely that we’ll need to take regulatory action to uphold confidence in nurses and midwives, or professional standards.

We’d only need to do that if the nurse or midwife was given a custodial sentence (this includes suspended sentences), or the conviction was for a specified offence.

Once we decide that the conviction, and any information we've gathered about the surrounding circumstances, would be serious enough to affect the nurse or midwife’s fitness to practise, we'll seek police information to verify the details of the conviction or caution referred to us.

Find out more about how we determine seriousness.

(My bold)

Obviously there's no guarantee that a particular employer or university will take exactly the same line as the NMC (and you may have a different regulator) but this should give you some idea of the standard expected. Without knowing your full details, I would expect that if convicted of a railway travel offence, then as long as you are open and honest with your employer and / or university, it will not cause you any problem.

 

[Raghad]

And to help set your mind at rest, you may want to read what the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) has to say at https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/:



(My bold)

Obviously there's no guarantee that a particular employer or university will take exactly the same line as the NMC (and you may have a different regulator) but this should give you some idea of the standard expected. Without knowing your full details, I would expect that if convicted of a railway travel offence, then as long as you are open and honest with your employer and / or university, it will not cause you any problem.

I’ll have a look at the website thank you

 

[some bloke]

I’m really worried

I suggest you focus on what you can control - the answer to the question what you should expect may depend partly on what you do. Please follow @najaB's suggestion to write down the detail of what happened, while it's still fresh in your mind. One aim is to identify points that the company might think are relevant and answer them. For example, what might be relevant to the suggestion that you were pretending to sleep? You could use a voice recording app to tell the story or to make notes, trying to make sure you get the story accurate.

If you belong to a union, they can offer advice on how employers in health care might look on a conviction, and/or provide other useful advice. If it later turns out that the company is keen to prosecute, then you could consult a solicitor.

If you look at other threads on here, you can see that sometimes it takes several tries before a company offers a settlement. These may be of interest:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...when-purchasing-a-ticket.184749/#post-4071239
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/possibility-of-summons.181475/#post-3990817

 

[MotCO]

One thing that is not clear to me, and may stand against you, is why did you not try to buy an on-line ticket immediately after boarding the train. I know you were destressing, but I would have thought that the first priority was to buy a ticket.

With regards to the email you sent, one point you did not mention was that you thought that the guard / inspector was selling you a ticket since he took your bank card and gave you something which looks as though it is a long printed ticket. You probably do not need to do anything now, but you may wish to include it in your response when they ask for your version of events.

 

[Raghad]

I just received a letter from TPE this morning and asked for what happened, is that a good sign?

 

[najaB]

I just received a letter from TPE this morning and asked for what happened, is that a good sign?

It's neither good nor bad. It's exactly what it is - a request for your side of the story. This is your opportunity to concisely explain what happened, that you have learned from your mistake and to ask that they settle the matter for the fare due plus a contribution towards their costs.

 

[Raghad]

I’m gonna write the letter now, am I alright to show it to someone before I send it ?

 

[najaB]

I’m gonna write the letter now, am I alright to show it to someone before I send it ?

Post your proposed letter here (without any PII) and we'll be able provide constructive feedback.

 

[some bloke]

You could upload a photo of their letter (again with identifying details removed) in case there's anything relevant.

 

[Raghad]

That’s the letter they’ve sent me

 

[Raghad]

View attachment 66626

That’s the letter they’ve sent me

 

[Raghad]

I’ve written a draft on a small notepad

 

[some bloke]

You could remove the identifying details from their letter.

The part about completing the purchase might need clarifying - when did you start the process? You could think whether there are other details that might be in his report that you could address, such as him thinking you pretended to be asleep. I'd omit the parts about glasses and the bike.

 

[Raghad]

You could remove the identifying details from their letter.

The part about completing the purchase might need clarifying - when did you start the process? You could think whether there are other details that might be in his report that you could address, such as him thinking you pretended to be asleep. I'd omit the parts about glasses and the bike.

I opened the app on my way to the station but because it was raining really bad the screen was all wet and couldn’t proceed so I exited the app and was gonna buy the ticket on the train as I mentioned earlier

 

[Raghad]

That’s the letter they’ve sent me

 

[some bloke]

I opened the app on my way to the station but because it was raining really bad the screen was all wet and couldn’t proceed so I exited the app and was gonna buy the ticket on the train as I mentioned earlier

That sounds more like starting again rather than completing. It would seem relevant to mention that you tried to buy earlier, especially if it was more than 10 minutes beforehand.

 

[Raghad]

That sounds more like starting again rather than completing. It would seem relevant to mention that you tried to buy earlier, especially if it was more than 10 minutes beforehand.

Well it was unsuccessful because the payment wouldn’t go through as my app is linked to apple pay and I have to use my fingerprint to confirm the payment but because of the heavy rain my thumb was soaking wet and the phone home button wouldn’t respond hence I decided to do it on the train and my aim was to actually make it there on time. I know it’s not an excuse

 

[some bloke]

I opened the app on my way to the station...I exited the app and was gonna buy the ticket on the train

the payment wouldn’t go through as my app is linked to apple pay and I have to use my fingerprint to confirm the payment but because of the heavy rain my thumb was soaking wet and the phone home button wouldn’t respond hence I decided to do it on the train

Yes, these are clearer than the part about completing the purchase. Hopefully they will take into account your personal circumstances. As you have 14 days, I'd wait for more comments from people on here. Have you thought about whether there's anything else he could have noticed/misunderstood that you might address?

I hope you're not blaming yourself too much. It does sound unpleasant with him taking the phone, the accusation about pretending to sleep and taking the card then not using it.

 

[some bloke]

It may be that it's best not to mention him pulling the phone from you, in this letter. That's something people other than me are better qualified to answer.

 

[Raghad]

It may be that it's best not to mention him pulling the phone from you, in this letter. That's something people other than me are better qualified to answer.

I’ve done a new draft, excuse my handwriting as I’m on the bus. Thanks a lot for your time

 

[scrapy]

If he touched you - that can be considered a form of assult.
And he certainly has no right to remove your personal beolongings from you.

This is sounding much more serious than other cases.

Whilst you may consider touching someone assault, it's unlikely tapping somebody on the shoulder to get their attention when they have headphones in would be considered assault by a court, as it would be for the prosecution to prove that the conductor intended to cause harm.

If the conductor snatched the phone off the OP then obviously as you say this is more serious. Can the OP confirm that it was snatched? Was the guard aware at the time of taking the phone that their wasn't actually a ticket on there?

The reason I ask is that it is quite common to see a passenger hold out a phone to a guard and a guard briefly take hold of it to scan it or read it, something that isn't always that easy on a moving train when you are at a different height to a seated passenger. If in this case a ticket wasn't apparent then it maybe that they kept hold of it in order to ascertain what information was on the screen. I think more clarification is needed from the OP.

Edit: I've now read the statement where the OP says the phone was pulled from their hands, as couldn't originally view the images properly. Yes TPE have CCTV on their trains then this may be able to corroborate this and I would expect if this could be done the staff member to at least receive retraining if not disciplinary action. This is separate to the OPs case for not buying a ticket though.

 

[js1000]

Hi, I'm wondering if I could get some help, I was issued with an MG11 yesterday when I was travelling from huddersfield to Manchester. I didn't know im not allowed to purchase a ticket on the train. I was rushing to the station and saw the barriers open so thought i'd get the ticket on the train or when I arrive to Manchester. then when the train conductor approached me and asked for the ticket I was buying one on my phone to show it to him then he took my phone off me and said im not allowed to do that and that im convicted with evading a ticket. I didn't say anything and he didn't offer selling me a ticket either he immediately took my D.O.B, name and address and printed a long receipt with TPE reference number on it and his badge number too. it said witness statement. I had no intention for evading the ticket like obviously i'll need one to get out of manchester station but he was really cross and said TPE will be in touch and now I'm really worried about the report he submitted and I don't know what to do. I was going to buy one I'm not trying to get away without a ticket. I don't want any caution on my record and I've never committed an offence before in my life. I'm happy to pay a fine but I just don't know what to expect. Hope someone can help
thanks

Sorry but you shouldn't be buying a ticket on your mobile once you see a conductor. The problem with M-tickets although many passengers use them - they are open to abuse.

Based on your description of the event, which I am assuming to be truthful, I personally believe there is little chance this will end up court. They will look to quietly settle with a fine (£80 maybe) and a warning to purchase ticket on your phone prior to boarding.

The reason I do not believe this will go to court (aside from TOCs wishing to avoid the cost and rigmarole of it in the first place) is the conduct of the TPE member of staff appears incorrect. Taking your phone and bank card off you without consent is not acceptable. At no point does he seem to have really explained what they are doing with your details that you are giving him and which they have a responsibility to do when issuing a Penalty Fare or MG11 statement. It's really not in TPE's interests to take that to a Magistrates court and this sequence of events would be frowned upon in court.

You should certainly describe the events honestly and truthfully in your response. If the guard did 'snatch' your phone or bank card off then do so. If they didn't and your looking to 'over-egg' it because you're angry then do not say that as TPE can corroborate it (somewhat) from potential CCTV footage.

If TPE know the circumstances as you have described they will almost certainly want an out of court settlement with a warning not to do it again. From looking at this objectively, there is a 'can of worms' here and the approach of the TPE staff cannot be viewed 'separately' as it could lead to bad PR for TPE which all TOC are keen to avoid. TPE will be looking to settle this quietly with a mature approach at the earliest opportunity. You should pay the fine/settlement they will issue and make sure to purchase a ticket prior to boarding or before seeing a conductor.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[some bloke]

They are supposed to show, if they allege dishonesty, that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

They might wonder a couple of things:

"If she thought it was OK to buy a ticket online from the train, why is she saying (and/or the report saying) that she panicked?"

Also the email says it was moments before he arrived, while the drafts say it was minutes.

 

[maxbarnish]

If he touched you - that can be considered a form of assult.
And he certainly has no right to remove your personal beolongings from you.

This is sounding much more serious than other cases.

I agree - you could try to complain about this and they may drop the other case in exchange