Heritage railway financial problems.

[eldomtom2]

All very simple.
If we want out hobby to continue, railways have to make money to pay the bills.
Comercial decisions have to be made about pricing and what experience can be offered and for which audience. Not every decision is going to suit everybody.
However, facts remain, if they run out of money... they will cease to be and we will all be losers

You assume that it's clear and obvious what makes money and what doesn't.

 

[John Luxton]

As regards retail, some heritage railways really don’t help themselves in this regard. It’s very common to find books in particular are in a pretty poor state, either damaged from handling or dampness. And it is quite a common experience to have to queue for ages whilst staff are fussing around over something unrelated. I’m not going to name specific railways on this apart from that FWHR is one.
This being the case, it’s no wonder Amazon has an advantage.

Visiting the shop at a heritage line used to be a pleasure - but quite a few seem to just sell souvenir tat and a sometimes a few selective books

The same goes for shops at other heritage attractions.

Some lines have a better retail offering than others:

One that stands out is the small Launceston Steam Railway, which though it has fairly limited opening and isn't much more than a family business does have a fairly good shop with a mix of new and second hand book. The railway books are upstairs the souvenirs down. Needless to say I spent a few bob there last week.

Launceston have a much better offering than the shop at the Llangollen Railway at Llangollen Station which is odd as one would expect Llangollen to have a much greater footfall being located almost in the Town Centre where as Launceston is away from town centre, down a steep hill.

Welshpool and Llanfair have a good retail selection with a nice mix on new and second hand. Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Heritage shops at Porthmadog are good, but I think WHHR shop has the slight edge over the FWHR at Harbour Station but hat is probably due to the retail space being larger.

I have paid a few visits to the SVR in recent years, but have noted their retail offering has declined a bit.

Bala Lake Railway is even poorer

Amazon can impact on sales - but there are many small publisher books that Amazon do not sell and these publishers are often the ones that produce the interesting niche books which should appeal to enthusiasts.

 

[47434]

If there was a better balance between those commenting on how heritage railways should be run vs. those who actually try and keep them alive, I am convinced more would thrive.

 

[Swimbar]

You assume that it's clear and obvious what makes money and what doesn't.

A Coach load of National Holiday passengers on a Scarborough and North Yorkshire Moors Railway Tour are happy to be pulled by whatever traction is available. Regular Bookings make money for Heritage Railways. Fully booked dining trains etc. If its a Steam Train its an added bonus. Some good marketing via Channel 5 TV Programmes, and big budget action films helps!
The only people who are bothered that it is CWR, between Stations, to reduce maintenance, are the Enthusiasts and I think they are a dying breed?

 

[Titfield]

It's more complicated than that if you've shaved £1000 off your costs by not running the trains that the extra 100 passengers would have travelled on. As regards secondary spend on casual customers the retail margin has been destroyed by the amazon effect, the catering margin has been destroyed by increases in the minimum wage other employment costs and regulation. You are now far better off concentrating your efforts on pre-paid added value products which is what the FWHR and others have done.

Yes agreed. I was giving a simple answer to illustrate the principal.

I would suggest that for catering most heritage railways have to rely on volunteer staff. Paid staff can push the break even point to an unattainable level. I do accept though that having sufficient volunteer staff can be quite a challenge.

As regards retail many heritage railways sell "souvenir tat" because it is that which sells to the bulk of a railways customers. Specialist books and dvds are slow moving items and if the publisher ./ supplier wont provide sale or return terms then it can be challenging for a railway to take the financial risk.

 

[paul1609]

Yes agreed. I was giving a simple answer to illustrate the principal.

I would suggest that for catering most heritage railways have to rely on volunteer staff. Paid staff can push the break even point to an unattainable level. I do accept though that having sufficient volunteer staff can be quite a challenge.

As regards retail many heritage railways sell "souvenir tat" because it is that which sells to the bulk of a railways customers. Specialist books and dvds are slow moving items and if the publisher ./ supplier wont provide sale or return terms then it can be challenging for a railway to take the financial risk.

I can only talk for my railway where the catering staff are a mixture of volunteers and paid staff. If you are running high quality pullman dining trains, value added products such as breakfasts and cream teas on scheduled services, fish and chip and real ale trains a mix is inevitable in my opinion. The secondary spend from casual turn up and go passengers is more about overall ambience and selling future products than profitability with the possible exception of events.

 

[eldomtom2]

A Coach load of National Holiday passengers on a Scarborough and North Yorkshire Moors Railway Tour are happy to be pulled by whatever traction is available. Regular Bookings make money for Heritage Railways. Fully booked dining trains etc. If its a Steam Train its an added bonus. Some good marketing via Channel 5 TV Programmes, and big budget action films helps!
The only people who are bothered that it is CWR, between Stations, to reduce maintenance, are the Enthusiasts and I think they are a dying breed?

I would very much doubt that steam trains can be considered simply an "added bonus" for a heritage railway.

 

[Swimbar]

I would very much doubt that steam trains can be considered simply an "added bonus" for a heritage railway.

How do you define a 'heritage railway'?
The Wensleydale Railway state that they operate 'heritage diesel train services' Their pacers are at least 36 years old and are therefore 'heritage'
Other railways are making use of them, and extensive diesel traction, and still attracting passengers.
The majority of the population will find travelling on a pacer, for the first time, an interesting experience
I think the expectation that there has to be steam haulage to be a 'heritage railway' is a thing of the past.

 

[Brissle Girl]

How do you define a 'heritage railway'?
The Wensleydale Railway state that they operate 'heritage diesel train services' Their pacers are at least 36 years old and are therefore 'heritage'
Other railways are making use of them, and extensive diesel traction, and still attracting passengers.
The majority of the population will find travelling on a pacer, for the first time, an interesting experience
I think the expectation that there has to be steam haulage to be a 'heritage railway' is a thing of the past.

Hmmm.... I can't find any reference to passenger numbers of the WR, but I would expect them to be miniscule in comparison with some of the railways we've been discussing here. And assuming I'm correct, what would be the primary reason for that - lack of steam. (Note - I'm excluding the Polar Express services, which clearly have a particular attraction to families with younger children.)

 

[47434]

Hmmm.... I can't find any reference to passenger numbers of the WR, but I would expect them to be miniscule in comparison with some of the railways we've been discussing here. And assuming I'm correct, what would be the primary reason for that - lack of steam. (Note - I'm excluding the Polar Express services, which clearly have a particular attraction to families with younger children.)

Their numbers may well be miniscule compared with the Moors or SVR but then again, I expect their costs will be too. Operating steam on a long railway is eye wateringly expensive so I applaud WR's commercial thinking.

 

[eldomtom2]

Their numbers may well be miniscule compared with the Moors or SVR but then again, I expect their costs will be too. Operating steam on a long railway is eye wateringly expensive so I applaud WR's commercial thinking.

Ultimately the question is whether or not the reduced expenses make up for the reduced revenue, and obviously from the outside it's hard to know what the truth is. But you're certainly sacrificing revenue by not running steam.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

How do you define a 'heritage railway'?
The Wensleydale Railway state that they operate 'heritage diesel train services' Their pacers are at least 36 years old and are therefore 'heritage'

Their numbers may well be miniscule compared with the Moors or SVR but then again, I expect their costs will be too. Operating steam on a long railway is eye wateringly expensive so I applaud WR's commercial thinking.

The WR is an unusual case in that they, at least to begin with, didn't consider themselves as a heritage railway. It was supposed to be a 'community railway' with an objective of transporting locals and tourists, using 1st Gen DMUs as traction since they were cheap and available.

The WR's troubles have been discussed extensively on this forum, but it seems that facing the costs of maintaining a very long line but despite that not serving directly either local tourist hotspots or the nearest main line station this turned out to be uneconomic and they headed towards concentrating more on heritage/steam/events etc. I am not sure how exactly they define themselves now, but I think it's still a distinctly different setup from other lines which started off focused more on being able to run steam than providing a useful service.

 

[Gostav]

How do you define a 'heritage railway'?
The Wensleydale Railway state that they operate 'heritage diesel train services' Their pacers are at least 36 years old and are therefore 'heritage'
Other railways are making use of them, and extensive diesel traction, and still attracting passengers.
The majority of the population will find travelling on a pacer, for the first time, an interesting experience
I think the expectation that there has to be steam haulage to be a 'heritage railway' is a thing of the past.

There are obvious example in Isle of Man, full electric fleets on Manx Electric Railway but still attracted a large number of tourists.

 

[paul1609]

The WR is an unusual case in that they, at least to begin with, didn't consider themselves as a heritage railway. It was supposed to be a 'community railway' with an objective of transporting locals and tourists, using 1st Gen DMUs as traction since they were cheap and available.

The WR's troubles have been discussed extensively on this forum, but it seems that facing the costs of maintaining a very long line but despite that not serving directly either local tourist hotspots or the nearest main line station this turned out to be uneconomic and they headed towards concentrating more on heritage/steam/events etc. I am not sure how exactly they define themselves now, but I think it's still a distinctly different setup from other lines which started off focused more on being able to run steam than providing a useful service.

The WR is also unusual in that they are using a freight only line that they lease from Network Rail that when they took it over was in full working order. Unfortunately as I understand it they have struggled to keep up with the maintenance and upgrades.

 

[stuu]

There are obvious example in Isle of Man, full electric fleets on Manx Electric Railway but still attracted a large number of tourists.

That's not really the same though, the heritage and unusual aspect of it is far more obvious. Its not as if they are running 313s or something

 

[Marmaduke]

The WR is not really unusual its probably fair to say that a long time ago, before the issues surrounding coal and steam loco hire costs surfaced, they realised that the business model for them was to provide a realistic, cheaper alternative in using heritage diesels, the cheapest of which is Pacer units. They're very economical, easy to repair, somewhat reliable, particularly when you have several sets to choose from and come with easy access to plentiful spares.

Judging by the amount of people who journey on them between Leeming Bar & Leyburn, they must be doing something must be right?

Whilst I don't think that they have a lot of money to hand, what monies they do have seems to stretch a long way and one can only applaud the Financial Controller on this front?

I also suspect that's also down to low overheads, Volunteers who are willing to stick their hands in their pockets to get things done and a few individuals who provide rolling stock for use on a free basis, but supported maintenance.

Yes a lot of people love a steam engine, but the question is, is steam becoming a dying attraction? The reason I say this is that we have had at least two possibly three generations who have been brought up in the diesel era and to them they don't really care that much about what is at the front, more about having a ride on a train and a value for money day out.

I think as a person who visits several Heritage lines, the Wensleydale Railway is value for money and pounds per mile, must rank as one of the cheapest rides in the UK?

The scenery is lovely on the ride up into the Yorkshire Dales.

Perhaps the only negative is the amount of trains it doesn't run due to a lack of signalling. If the WR could double the amount of journeys, I think it would be onto a winner for more walkers and people who wished to hop off for longer in Leyburn?

 

[eldomtom2]

Yes a lot of people love a steam engine, but the question is, is steam becoming a dying attraction?

No. You are absolutely losing a big chunk of revenue by not running steam - the question is how much it also cuts back on expenses. A quick look at sites like Tripadvisor clearly shows that the general public want steam, or barring that a 1st gen DMU or loco-hauled Mk1s rather than a Pacer.

 

[Mike Machin]

No. You are absolutely losing a big chunk of revenue by not running steam - the question is how much it also cuts back on expenses. A quick look at sites like Tripadvisor clearly shows that the general public want steam, or barring that a 1st gen DMU or loco-hauled Mk1s rather than a Pacer.

Absolutely right! Amongst enthusiasts, yes, there are fewer and fewer who remember working steam on BR. But, for the general public they come to steam simply because it's something different. As i have said before, to non-enthusiasts, a train is a train is a train if it's diesel, mots people simply cant' tell the difference between an old diesel and a new diesel.

We tend to look at things through the prism of being enthusiasts and we know the differences.

It's the same with many other forms of transport. A friend of mine has an old London Transport RT Bus. A few years ago he took his bus to a rally on the the Isle of Wight. When he arrived back at Southampton he needed the loo, so after disembarking from the ferry he parked-up the RT while he went to the gents. When he returned, his bus was full of passengers - they just assumed it was the bus linking the Red Funnel terminal to the Central Station! To the people who had boarded, even though it's a vintage RT, it was 'just another bus.' It's the same for many with diesel trains on heritage railways.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The WHR appeared to overcome the hostile locals problem, but it appears to be a major bugbear with the L&B.

It depends how you define "locals", I guess. In the case of Rheilffordd Eryri, most of the indigenous Welsh population, and the elected local politicians backed the scheme once the FfR had become more sensitive to issues surrounding language and culture.

By and large, the opponents were people who'd moved into the area, mainly from England.

That's not to say they didn't have a right to their opinions and their voice - but the situation was very different from the L&B's.

 

[John Luxton]

It depends how you define "locals", I guess. In the case of Rheilffordd Eryri, most of the indigenous Welsh population, and the elected local politicians backed the scheme once the FfR had become more sensitive to issues surrounding language and culture.

By and large, the opponents were people who'd moved into the area, mainly from England.

That's not to say they didn't have a right to their opinions and their voice - but the situation was very different from the L&B's.

Yes I am aware of one particular local who featured in the TV Series "Snowdon Shepherd" who was from Hoylake. But I think they did claim some Welsh ancestry.

 

[alistairlees]

I took an impromptu trip on the spa valley railway this morning and early afternoon. The trains were very busy (only a few seats left on some services) and all the stations were very busy too. Staff were surprised by how busy it was. The good weather obviously help. I gather they will be keeping the shop open all through October now, even when there are no services, as trade is so good. I’ll be back with a group of friends for the beer festival in a month. Certainly things seem to be looking up here.

 

[Iskra]

I took an impromptu trip on the spa valley railway this morning and early afternoon. The trains were very busy (only a few seats left on some services) and all the stations were very busy too. Staff were surprised by how busy it was. The good weather obviously help. I gather they will be keeping the shop open all through October now, even when there are no services, as trade is so good. I’ll be back with a group of friends for the beer festival in a month. Certainly things seem to be looking up here.

The nearby Bluebell was also incredibly busy with both regular punters and a railtour. Both service trains were full and standing and some stations were also very busy.

 

[Titfield]

The nearby Bluebell was also incredibly busy with both regular punters and a railtour. Both service trains were full and standing and some stations were also very busy.

It was also busy on the Swanage Railway but this is to be expected. If there is a weekend of poor weather (which discourages people getting out and about) and then there is a weekend of good weather then people do come out in significant numbers. The only true indicator of performance is to look at a longer period of time because that irons out to a large extent weather related fluctuations.

 

[ThetrackMaster]

The WR is also unusual in that they are using a freight only line that they lease from Network Rail that when they took it over was in full working order. Unfortunately as I understand it they have struggled to keep up with the maintenance and upgrades.

Yes the WR is unusual! The lease from NR is interesting I understand, full repair and maintenance, to keep it to freight standards all the way to Redmire.
Whilst I am not aware of the annual cost of the lease, it is I understand a few bob and I also understand they don't get any assistance from NR in terms of any surplus track / components etc.
This if true, I find rather extraordinary?
The WR in effect operate a railway, maintain it, look after it on behalf of the national network owner, yet don't get any surplus kit? Strange one, as you would expect if someone is looking after it on your behalf, even paying money to use it, dare I say even improving it, or at the very least maintaining it, you'd think there would be an obligation on the owner of the asset to assist in even a small way?

 

[30907]

Yes the WR is unusual! The lease from NR is interesting I understand, full repair and maintenance, to keep it to freight standards all the way to Redmire.
Whilst I am not aware of the annual cost of the lease, it is I understand a few bob and I also understand they don't get any assistance from NR in terms of any surplus track / components etc.
This if true, I find rather extraordinary?
The WR in effect operate a railway, maintain it, look after it on behalf of the national network owner, yet don't get any surplus kit? Strange one, as you would expect if someone is looking after it on your behalf, even paying money to use it, dare I say even improving it, or at the very least maintaining it, you'd think there would be an obligation on the owner of the asset to assist in even a small way?

My guess is that there's a difference, accountancy/tax wise, between supplying stuff to maintain your (sub-let) asset and (effectively) donating stuff to a charity.

 

[Titfield]

Yes the WR is unusual! The lease from NR is interesting I understand, full repair and maintenance, to keep it to freight standards all the way to Redmire.
Whilst I am not aware of the annual cost of the lease, it is I understand a few bob and I also understand they don't get any assistance from NR in terms of any surplus track / components etc.
This if true, I find rather extraordinary?
The WR in effect operate a railway, maintain it, look after it on behalf of the national network owner, yet don't get any surplus kit? Strange one, as you would expect if someone is looking after it on your behalf, even paying money to use it, dare I say even improving it, or at the very least maintaining it, you'd think there would be an obligation on the owner of the asset to assist in even a small way?

Full repairing leases are the norm for commercial property. However the "rent" usually reflects the cost of that obligation. I have seen Sir Peter Hendy state that surplus NR equipment must be made available to heritage railways effectively at the same price as they would get from a scrapper or other non trade buyer. I have heard comments that one of the problems of selling surplus equipment to heritage railways is that they take for ever to come to an agreement whereas a scrapper will have the deal done and the material collected within days. I think Network Rail are obligated to get the best possible price on the disposal of assets and cant do sweetheart deals but tbh scrap value will be a tiny fraction of the cost of buying new.

The track access charge that a TOC would pay to access the branch should again reflect the cost of that usage.

 

[D6130]

Sorry, I can't do a link, but Rail Advent are reporting that the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway have secured a £1 million grant from the Government's Community Ownership Fund towards the rebuilding of bridge no. 27 across the Bridgehouse Beck at the North end of Haworth station. I wonder whether other lines have applied for such funding for necessary capital projects?

 

[30907]

Sorry, I can't do a link, but Rail Advent are reporting that the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway have secured a £1 million grant from the Government's Community Ownership Fund towards the rebuilding of bridge no. 27 across the Bridgehouse Beck at the North end of Haworth station. I wonder whether other lines have applied for such funding for necessary capital projects?

https://kwvr.co.uk/kwvr-awarded-community-ownership-fund-grant/

 

[D6130]

https://kwvr.co.uk/kwvr-awarded-community-ownership-fund-grant/

Thanks for that!

 

[YorkshireBear]

For a railway the size of the KWVR the cost of that project is huge so it is very welcome.