High fares - The issue that won't go away

[miklcct]

Higher fares and having no railcard to use have made me question if I can afford the train now. Less advance fares, increased roll out of one way pricing which makes return trips higher and no railcard have made fares expensive now.

Single fare pricing has resulted in me having more confidence in buying the best value ticket to travel on the train. I no longer need to know which route / which station I am going to return before travelling out.

 

[NCT]

'Treasury needs the revenue' is the even more pressing issue.

The exchequer cannot afford not to exploit the willingness to pay of Surrey commuters. This lot won't vote for tax rises so the only way to make them cough up is through fares. When across the railway market those paying the fares and those who should pay higher taxes are almost always the same people, there isn't even a redistributive argument to lowering rail fares. When then Epsom & Ewell MP Chris Grayling was transport secretary he did not put Epsom into Zone 6 - the revenue was too lucrative to forego. Rachel Reeves is a fiscal hawk and won't easily give up on a steady cash stream.

5 years after the height of Covid, railway demand is steadily coming back. Trains are getting full again - not pre-Covid full but getting full enough. The intercity and London & South East TOCs are on track towards generating surpluses again. Demand management says it's not a good idea to lower fares.

Time and again it's proven that rail fares at current levels remain inelastic - TfL tried it, ScotRail tried it - lowering fares (abolishing peak fares) lost the industry revenue and it's the taxpayer that has to cough up. When demographics is causing an unavoidable expansion of the state, the operational railway will be asked to fend for itself.

My prediction is that GBR will face a stingy Treasury just like in the BR days, and Treasury will be more stingy on cash and be more risk averse than private shareholders.

 

[H F Stephens]

Time and again it's proven that rail fares at current levels remain inelastic - [….] ScotRail tried it - lowering fares (abolishing peak fares) lost the industry revenue

Not strictly true, and ScotRail appears to be building on what it did actually learn.

 

[yorksrob]

'Treasury needs the revenue' is the even more pressing issue.

The exchequer cannot afford not to exploit the willingness to pay of Surrey commuters. This lot won't vote for tax rises so the only way to make them cough up is through fares. When across the railway market those paying the fares and those who should pay higher taxes are almost always the same people, there isn't even a redistributive argument to lowering rail fares. When then Epsom & Ewell MP Chris Grayling was transport secretary he did not put Epsom into Zone 6 - the revenue was too lucrative to forego. Rachel Reeves is a fiscal hawk and won't easily give up on a steady cash stream.

5 years after the height of Covid, railway demand is steadily coming back. Trains are getting full again - not pre-Covid full but getting full enough. The intercity and London & South East TOCs are on track towards generating surpluses again. Demand management says it's not a good idea to lower fares.

Time and again it's proven that rail fares at current levels remain inelastic - TfL tried it, ScotRail tried it - lowering fares (abolishing peak fares) lost the industry revenue and it's the taxpayer that has to cough up. When demographics is causing an unavoidable expansion of the state, the operational railway will be asked to fend for itself.

My prediction is that GBR will face a stingy Treasury just like in the BR days, and Treasury will be more stingy on cash and be more risk averse than private shareholders.

This is a very Surry-centric view of the railway.

The passenger profile demand outside of the commuter belt of London is a lot more economically diverse as shown by the use in PTE areas.

And yet in spite of the need to extract wealth from rich Surrey commuters, it's those rich Surrey commuters who have access to an off-peak railcard, whereas economically diverse working people of the hinterland don't.

Go figure !

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What does it reveal about train fares?

Not discussed.
What was discussed is the integration of track and train, eliminating the wasteful costs of the current contractual interface between TOCs and NR (with DfT micromanagement).
So more about cost reduction than fares.

 

[Indigo Soup]

And yet in spite of the need to extract wealth from rich Surrey commuters, it's those rich Surrey commuters who have access to an off-peak railcard, whereas economically diverse working people of the hinterland don't.

Maybe we should abolish the Network [South-East implied] Railcard, and replace it with a Not [South-East implied] Railcard instead?

 

[NCT]

This is a very Surry-centric view of the railway.

The passenger profile demand outside of the commuter belt of London is a lot more economically diverse as shown by the use in PTE areas.

And yet in spite of the need to extract wealth from rich Surrey commuters, it's those rich Surrey commuters who have access to an off-peak railcard, whereas economically diverse working people of the hinterland don't.

Go figure !

Looking at ORR Rail Industry Finance data (https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/stati...operator-finances-since-2015-16-by-franchise/)

For FY2023/24 Southwestern's revenue per passenger mile was 19.8p, Northern's was 13.1p. So even after Network Railcard discounts, fares in the north are far cheaper.

Standard off-peak fares outside of the South East need to be raised significantly before other regional Railcards become financially viable. Anytime and Season tickets too.

 

[JonathanH]

For FY2023/24 Southwestern's revenue per passenger mile was 19.8p, Northern's was 13.1p. So even after Network Railcard discounts, fares in the north are far cheaper.

Standard off-peak fares outside of the South East need to be raised significantly before other regional Railcards become financially viable. Anytime and Season tickets too.

I suspect that these figures are highly skewed by the anytime fares into London and volume of users at those times, rather than being properly representative of off-peak pricing.

 

[canary fan]

Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Portugal.....

There seem to be a few countries with affordable rail fares to choose from.

This must be the only time ever that Switzerland has appeared in a list of countries with affordable rail fares!

 

[NCT]

I suspect that these figures are highly skewed by the anytime fares into London and volume of users at those times, rather than being properly representative of off-peak pricing.

The point remains that across the full range of passengers those in L&SE pay considerably more than those in the north. Focusing on whether or not SE passengers are overpampered by the Network Railcard is missing the big picture.

As an example of two flows 45km apart as the crow flies:
- Crawley - London Terminals - Offpeak Day Return - £34.40
- Clitheroe - Manchester Central Zone - Offpeak Day Return - £15.40

I don't have time to manually go through more flows on BR Fares but I suspect the above contrast is not atypical.

 

[geoffk]

Massively higher subsidy (often disguised) coupled with lower operating costs (UK drivers’ pay quoted by German unions as “what we’ve fallen far behind) and different standards. As an immediate thought - how much does the inspection and repair of line side fencing cost? (OK - not massive, but when you consider most continental non-HS lines are unfenced.). I suspect there’s a vastly different interpretation of the “R” in ALARP as well…

It would be interesting to identify the cost of lineside fencing. Also what about unfunded pension liabilities on the continent? Someone will know much more than me....

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

This must be the only time ever that Switzerland has appeared in a list of countries with affordable rail fares!

They are actually quite affordable to the locals, many of whom have the half price or the General Abonnement cards both of which are valid on practically all forms of public transport.

Worth saying, though, the UK has a massive range of social/semi-commercial discounts that the Swiss can only dream of (eg. for Seniors).

Just as in the UK, the Swiss version of the Treasury would love to substantially increase the price of both cards if they could...

Returning to the UK, as you can infer from my name, I have been around a long time. The policy of having relatively high passenger fares really goes right back to the Labour Government of the early 60s, ie. in effect fares weren't cut much when motorways and mass driving took hold. Just as now, public finances were stretched....!

 

[JonathanH]

As an example of two flows 45km apart as the crow flies:
- Crawley - London Terminals - Offpeak Day Return - £34.40

I appreciate you were looking up quickly but that is the artificially high fare which allows travel on Gatwick Express. The super off-peak day return fare is £17.80, which is more comparable with the fare from Clitheroe to Manchester, and attracts the Network Railcard discount.

 

[Mark J]

I have never agreed with the basic argument of successive Governments..

'Fare payers should contribute a greater share of running the railways, it is not fair on taxpayers to shoulder the burden.'

That ridiculous argument falls apart due to..

1) Most who use the Railways are taxpayers.
2) Those who don't drive still contribute towards for road based schemes/improvements in their taxes.
3) There are various financial incentives given to those who own 'green' cars. Incentives that still exist today, at cost to all taxpayers. My taxes help to subsidise those with a 'green' car - even though I don't own one.
4) There are many things that the Government funds that I don't agree with, or use. Yet I'm still forced to fund these through my taxes.
5) If there were no railways, the roads would become seriously more congested, resulting in a greater hit to the economy than it costs to fund the railways in the first place.
6) Road users are subsidised by the Government too. The costs associated with Motoring are not fully covered by what is collected in fuel and road duties.

The railways ARE an essential part of the UK infrastructure. It is about time various Governments (of all colours) woke up to this fact and stopped treating the railways in a 'Cinderella' fashion.

 

[NCT]

I appreciate you were looking up quickly but that is the artificially high fare which allows travel on Gatwick Express. The super off-peak day return fare is £17.80, which is more comparable with the fare from Clitheroe to Manchester, and attracts the Network Railcard discount.

Ah, I stand corrected.

Isn't the No GatEx fare £25.60 though? I can't find any £17.80? £17.00 is the Railcard discounted fare.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe we should abolish the Network [South-East implied] Railcard, and replace it with a Not [South-East implied] Railcard instead?

Nah, that just recreates the same boundary anomolies.

A national railcard is the only sensible way to go.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Nah, that just recreates the same boundary anomolies.

A national railcard is the only sensible way to go.

Well yes, but it's not such a good rhetorical device.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah, I stand corrected.

Isn't the No GatEx fare £25.60 though? I can't find any £17.80? £17.00 is the Railcard discounted fare.

£17.80 to Victoria, rather than Terminals.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that these figures are highly skewed by the anytime fares into London and volume of users at those times, rather than being properly representative of off-peak pricing.

The point remains that across the full range of passengers those in L&SE pay considerably more than those in the north. Focusing on whether or not SE passengers are overpampered by the Network Railcard is missing the big picture.

As an example of two flows 45km apart as the crow flies:
- Crawley - London Terminals - Offpeak Day Return - £34.40
- Clitheroe - Manchester Central Zone - Offpeak Day Return - £15.40

I don't have time to manually go through more flows on BR Fares but I suspect the above contrast is not atypical.

@JonathanH is quite correct. It's rather silly to expect Northern off-peak travellers to pay the same as high end commuters.

I may pick out some choice fare examples when I'm back at my computer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

This must be the only time ever that Switzerland has appeared in a list of countries with affordable rail fares!

They are actually quite affordable to the locals, many of whom have the half price or the General Abonnement cards both of which are valid on practically all forms of public transport.

Worth saying, though, the UK has a massive range of social/semi-commercial discounts that the Swiss can only dream of (eg. for Seniors).

Just as in the UK, the Swiss version of the Treasury would love to substantially increase the price of both cards if they could...

Returning to the UK, as you can infer from my name, I have been around a long time. The policy of having relatively high passenger fares really goes right back to the Labour Government of the early 60s, ie. in effect fares weren't cut much when motorways and mass driving took hold. Just as now, public finances were stretched....!

Can't any Swiss national obtain fares at half price through a reasonably priced railcard ? I would imagine this knocks even our railcard concessions into a cocked hat, let alone those of us in the railcard drought years !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Well yes, but it's not such a good rhetorical device.

Point well made !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==

Looking at ORR Rail Industry Finance data (https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/stati...operator-finances-since-2015-16-by-franchise/)

For FY2023/24 Southwestern's revenue per passenger mile was 19.8p, Northern's was 13.1p. So even after Network Railcard discounts, fares in the north are far cheaper.

Standard off-peak fares outside of the South East need to be raised significantly before other regional Railcards become financially viable. Anytime and Season tickets too.

Let's see:

Manchester - Leeds, 36 miles, direct route, £29 cheapest day return (slightly less on Northern via Hebden)

London - Ashford Kent, 48 miles, with my network card I can get a day return for £23.50 from Charing Cross.

Bristol - Exeter, 63 miles, cheapest day return, £40 (no alternative routes)

Lewes - Weymouth, 108 miles, with my Network card I can get a return for £28 (and that's a period return)

People who say that off-peak rares outside of the South East are sooo much cheaper are talking out the side of their hat.

 

[NCT]

Without discount,
Manchester - Leeds Any Permitted Off-peak Day Return - £28.40; London - Ashford via HS1 Super Off-peak Day Return - £42.50
Manchester - Leeds Northern Only Off-peak Day Return - £21.80; London - Ashford no HS1 Super Off-peak Day Return - £35.40.

At least compare like with like...

 

[yorksrob]

Without discount,
Manchester - Leeds Any Permitted Off-peak Day Return - £28.40; London - Ashford via HS1 Super Off-peak Day Return - £42.50
Manchester - Leeds Northern Only Off-peak Day Return - £21.80; London - Ashford no HS1 Super Off-peak Day Return - £35.40.

At least compare like with like...

Charing Cross to Ashford is a main line service - the main line up until 2009. It's more like for like with Trans Pennine Express than HS1.

 

[NCT]

Charing Cross to Ashford is a main line service - the main line up until 2009. It's more like for like with Trans Pennine Express than HS1.

You compare the fastest with the fastest, the slower alternative with the slower alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

You compare the fastest with the fastest, the slower alternative with the slower alternative.

TPE isn't a purpose built 140mph high speed railway line.

 

[Bald Rick]

TPE isn't a purpose built 140mph high speed railway line.

It was purpose built!

 

[yorksrob]

It was purpose built!

You know what I mean

 

[cactustwirly]

@JonathanH is quite correct. It's rather silly to expect Northern off-peak travellers to pay the same as high end commuters.

I may pick out some choice fare examples when I'm back at my computer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==





Can't any Swiss national obtain fares at half price through a reasonably priced railcard ? I would imagine this knocks even our railcard concessions into a cocked hat, let alone those of us in the railcard drought years !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==



Point well made !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 May 2025 ==



Let's see:

Manchester - Leeds, 36 miles, direct route, £29 cheapest day return (slightly less on Northern via Hebden)

London - Ashford Kent, 48 miles, with my network card I can get a day return for £23.50 from Charing Cross.

Bristol - Exeter, 63 miles, cheapest day return, £40 (no alternative routes)

Lewes - Weymouth, 108 miles, with my Network card I can get a return for £28 (and that's a period return)

People who say that off-peak rares outside of the South East are sooo much cheaper are talking out the side of their hat.

An Off Peak return from Reading to London is £37 which is the same distance as Manchester to Leeds, but almost £10 more expensive

 

[Llandudno]

An Off Peak return from Reading to London is £37 which is the same distance as Manchester to Leeds, but almost £10 more expensive

Off peak day return from Reading to London is actually £27.20, and there are slightly more trains per hour to choose from!

 

[yorksrob]

An Off Peak return from Reading to London is £37 which is the same distance as Manchester to Leeds, but almost £10 more expensive

We all have examples of expensive fares. The point is they're not all in the South East.

 

[yorksrob]

The BEEB have been doing one of their vox pops around what people want from the spending review. Of about five or six households interviewed, one couple specifically mentions high rail fares as something they want tackled:

People on £10,000 to £96,000 tell us what they want from the Spending Review

As the government outlines its spending plans, people with a range of incomes tell us where they think the money should go.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ollie Vass works for a nutritional supplement company, where he earns £31,000. His girlfriend Grace Sangster also 19 is on an apprenticeship scheme earning £40,000.
------------
Ollie also wants to see cheaper rail fares: "At the moment it's too expensive to use."

Given that the dominant view on this forum is that rail fares don't feature highly on people's concerns, it's interesting that they've cropped up on such a survey.

 

[simonw]

The BEEB have been doing one of their vox pops around what people want from the spending review. Of about five or six households interviewed, one couple specifically mentions high rail fares as something they want tackled:

People on £10,000 to £96,000 tell us what they want from the Spending Review

As the government outlines its spending plans, people with a range of incomes tell us where they think the money should go.

www.bbc.co.uk

Given that the dominant view on this forum is that rail fares don't feature highly on people's concerns, it's interesting that they've cropped up on such a survey.

1 in 5 or 6 000 according to your own words.