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High fares - The issue that won't go away

Krokodil

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So York - Whitby would cost... roughly double what York - Eaglescliffe does? Is that sensible? Is York - Whitby going to double in price or is York - Eaglescliffe going to half?
I haven't got accurate mileages to calculate properly but some of the fare for York-Eaglescliffe definitely look overpriced to me. York-Whitby looks good value, but it's certainly not the cheapest I've seen. See the maps the Dutch use for pricing for a way in which mileage on a community route (mostly the routes that avoided Beeching on hardship grounds) can be artificially reduced by changing the nominal section length. Or you can price the Esk Valley (and other routes popular with tourists) at the same rate you're charging the rest of the network (because you might say that tourists should pay their way, unless you're trying to manage traffic and parking) and offer a local residents' railcard.

Sorry, why are we basing pricing on mileage travelled? The number of miles travelled is one of the least important factors about a customer's journey. What's more important is where they're going and how fast.
Crow-flies mileage opens a massive can of worms. How cheap would Fort William to Inverness be by train if you priced it as the crow flies? Better to price train and bus by their respective mileages and let the public choose which they wish to use on that basis, just as you can now choose to take the direct bus from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen for a cheap fare, or the very indirect train for a more expensive one Integrated ticketing is important here.

Do we? Is this written somewhere?
Doesn't everyone (who isn't a train/car/bus etc. enthusiast) decide how to get to their destination based on a combination of price and convenience of the various options available? Most Dutch people aren't cyclists, they just cycle to the shops because that's the most convenient way of doing it.
 
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Haywain

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Hopefully you understood the meaning behind my sentence
No, I didn't. You appeared to be dictating that the bus is the only acceptable method of making that journey
railway journeys are fantastic, buses are great, cars are good too, taxis are fine, cycling is useful, walking is lovely - but each method should be chosen according to cost, distance, availability, suitability, and many other personal variables.
You say that personal variables come into it, so the bus from St Albans to Hatfield may not be the best for the individual.
Doesn't everyone (who isn't a train/car/bus etc. enthusiast) decide how to get to their destination based on a combination of price and convenience of the various options available?
They probably do, and for a high proportion of people that will simply involve jumping in the car and driving. But even many of those will g use a longer route than the most direct.
 

fandroid

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I don't know if the debate is now about a price cap or a price. Does anyone?

Also, the idea that the pricing has to work for even semi-crazy roundabout routes is itself crazy. Public transport is the thing, and and a better level of integration of modes would put this silly argument to bed
 

AlterEgo

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York-Whitby looks good value, but it's certainly not the cheapest I've seen.
Yes, it seems good value because the rail mileage is 85 miles, a circuitous route.

You can drive it in 45 miles.

That is why mileage based pricing is ridiculous; longer, less convenient routes cost *more*, not less.

How much would London to Rugby cost (82 miles via Weedon)? And what if you went via Northampton on the slower and less convenient trains (84 miles)?

Crow-flies mileage opens a massive can of worms.
Even stupider and with even less desirable results, yes.
 

Bletchleyite

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How much would London to Rugby cost (82 miles via Weedon)? And what if you went via Northampton on the slower and less convenient trains (84 miles)?

Plenty of countries have different rates for IC and local trains which would deal with that. Plus you could adjust the tariff kilometres for those two to make them the same.
 

AlterEgo

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I don't know if the debate is now about a price cap or a price. Does anyone?
They are almost exactly the same thing because of how caps would affect the market, and how many caveats would need to be introduced.

Also, the idea that the pricing has to work for even semi-crazy roundabout routes is itself crazy. Public transport is the thing, and and a better level of integration of modes would put this silly argument to bed
It should certainly be a priority above any fantasy mileage based fares proposal.

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Plus you could adjust the tariff kilometres for those two to make them the same.
So not mileage based pricing then. Just literally change the number of actual miles (or km) to fudge it. Glad that's straightened it out!
 

yorksrob

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You are assuming that the resolution requires outlying expensive fares to come down. As fares have a significant history, including of some PTE areas (S Yorks comes to mind) holding fares very low, presumably you would also accept that these would rise?

PTE fares are lower due a very sensible political objective to provide affordable transport in urban areas. Its this ethos which IMO needs to be brought to the whole railway, so there would be no justification for raising those fares substantially.

By contrast, high outlying fares are a throwback to an over-commercialised model dating back at least to privatisation which has had its day and is an obstacle to the passenger railway providing a benefit to society, therefore it's imperative that these are removed.

If there were identified demand for that journey, isn't that precisely why operators have moved away from mileage based fares?

Whitby is a strange example - at times they have a fairly reasonable off-peak fare from York, whereas at other times due to the sparse timetable, there are no reasonable fares to get you there for lunch time - even though trains going North from York towards Middlesbrough are carting around fresh air.

I'd love for there to be reasonably priced fares from the urban areas of Yorkshire to the Whitby line, but the TOC's just don't seem to want to provide them.

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It
I don't know if the debate is now about a price cap or a price. Does anyone?

Also, the idea that the pricing has to work for even semi-crazy roundabout routes is itself crazy. Public transport is the thing, and and a better level of integration of modes would put this silly argument to bed

It's about providing affordable rail travel. I'm fairly agnostic about how that's provided, so long as it's a genuine improvement on the current shambles.

You can have integrated transport until your heart's desire, but it's pointless if one mode of a given journey (e.g. rail) is extortionately priced.
 
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35B

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PTE fares are lower due a very sensible political objective to provide affordable transport in urban areas. Its this ethos which IMO needs to be brought to the whole railway, so there would be no justification for raising those fares substantially.

By contrast, high outlying fares are a throwback to an over-commercialised model dating back at least to privatisation which has had its day and is an obstacle to the passenger railway providing a benefit to society, therefore it's imperative that these are removed.
That doesn’t answer my question, as the prices in question were deliberately lowered some time ago in some areas to below the then normal levels. Even accepting your underlying premise for why fares should not be “high”, there remains a question about how they should be levelled. And if mileage fares are the answer, that includes answering honestly the question about what happens where they are below the proposed new norm.
 

Richardr

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"On rail" being the operative words. There are numerous frequent buses that take you from St Albans to Hatfield in circa 30 mins. Nobody is really going to make that journey by train unless they absolutely had to - longer, more expensive, more hassle.

We have to take the best method of public transport available to us.
Of course in normal times virtually no one is going to make that journey by rail. The point I was making is that if that train journey that I am not going to make is priced at the straight line between the two places, then that becomes a maximum fare for a lot of journeys such as St Albans or Hatfield to London as I will buy that ticket and break my journey.
 

yorksrob

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They are almost exactly the same thing because of how caps would affect the market, and how many caveats would need to be introduced.


It should certainly be a priority above any fantasy mileage based fares proposal.

If a higher fare cap were to be set to limit excessive fares on the main lines and radial routes out of London, why do you assume that this would automatically affect the commercial imperative to offer better value fares in the west country for example ? You will need to explain the mechanics of your statement.

Affordable train travel should be a higher priority than modal integration as outside of cities, I expect the proportion of rail passengers who use multiple public transport modes is probably currently limited.
 

AlterEgo

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If a higher fare cap were to be set to limit excessive fares on the main lines and radial routes out of London, why do you assume that this would automatically affect the commercial imperative to offer better value fares in the west country for example ? You will need to explain the mechanics of your statement.
It comes down to a simple question. Do you trust pricing managers to set what you think is a politically appropriate price for each journey?
 

yorksrob

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That doesn’t answer my question, as the prices in question were deliberately lowered some time ago in some areas to below the then normal levels. Even accepting your underlying premise for why fares should not be “high”, there remains a question about how they should be levelled. And if mileage fares are the answer, that includes answering honestly the question about what happens where they are below the proposed new norm.

As I've said many times, a fares cap still provides the opportunity to have fares below the cap where commercially or politically desirable. If this is desirable in PTE areas this would be perfectly possible under a fares cap.

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It comes down to a simple question. Do you trust pricing managers to set what you think is a politically appropriate price for each journey?

Clearly not - that's why any policy aimed at providing affordable rail travel needs to be embedded in regulation.
 

AlterEgo

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Clearly not - that's why any policy aimed at providing affordable rail travel needs to be embedded in regulation.
So why would you trust them to offer cheaper fares in the West Country? Those fares are cheap because most of them were significantly reduced to allow other FGW "baskets" to increase above the RPI+5% rate; it's not really about market forces.
 

CyrusWuff

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If we're purely looking at what is a reasonable price (without considering how to extract funding from the Treasury), I'm going to set the bar at 30p/mile for single journeys, 25p/mile for period returns and 20p/mile for day returns (for the return tickets don't forget to count the miles in both directions).
That would make a Single from Amersham to Chalfont & Latimer (for example) 60p and a Return 80p. In a similar vein, Silver Street to Edmonton Green would be an absolute bargain at 15p Single and 20p Return. I can't see TfL agreeing to that for some reason!

Heading the other way, Edmonton Green to Liverpool Street becomes £2.55 Single and £3.40 Return (currently £3.40/£4.60 for a Pay As You Go Single, or £7.00 for Cash.)
 

Horizon22

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That would make a Single from Amersham to Chalfont & Latimer (for example) 60p and a Return 80p. In a similar vein, Silver Street to Edmonton Green would be an absolute bargain at 15p Single and 20p Return. I can't see TfL agreeing to that for some reason!

Heading the other way, Edmonton Green to Liverpool Street becomes £2.55 Single and £3.40 Return (currently £3.40/£4.60 for a Pay As You Go Single, or £7.00 for Cash.)

Of course TfL broadly works on a zonal model (not withstanding the extremities of the network) which is broadly distance based, but will have discrepancies naturally if you're going one stop as opposed to travelling from say the northern edge of one zone to the southern edge of the same zone.

It has a wide "central" zone (Zone 1) where distance effectively doesn't matter much.
 

redreni

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I don't know if the debate is now about a price cap or a price. Does anyone?

Also, the idea that the pricing has to work for even semi-crazy roundabout routes is itself crazy. Public transport is the thing, and and a better level of integration of modes would put this silly argument to bed
I think the point is you would either have to avoid setting a fare for St Albans to Hatfield at all (which I assume is your preference if you think nobody would make that journey?), or ban break of journey somehow (which would be massively unpopular and, in cases like this, almost impossible to enforce given the route involves a walk between St Pancras and Kings Cross), or continue to have the journey priced higher than St Albans to St Pancras. Otherwise you create a massive loophole.

It's just an example, but issues like this would arise across the network if you had distance-based pricing based on straight line distances or even distances by road. Where the rail route is significantly longer than the straight line or road journey, the straight line distance or distance by road from the origin to intermediate stations (often including interchanges) will tend to be significantly greater than from the origin to the destination station, which means the intended fare would be undercut.
 

35B

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As I've said many times, a fares cap still provides the opportunity to have fares below the cap where commercially or politically desirable. If this is desirable in PTE areas this would be perfectly possible under a fares cap.
LNER. That is all.
 

redreni

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That would make a Single from Amersham to Chalfont & Latimer (for example) 60p and a Return 80p. In a similar vein, Silver Street to Edmonton Green would be an absolute bargain at 15p Single and 20p Return. I can't see TfL agreeing to that for some reason!

Heading the other way, Edmonton Green to Liverpool Street becomes £2.55 Single and £3.40 Return (currently £3.40/£4.60 for a Pay As You Go Single, or £7.00 for Cash.)
Many transport networks (and pricing structures more generally) have minimum fares or charges. You could calculate all fares as the minimum fare plus the price per mile, or you could base the fare solely on the price per mile but make that subject to the minimum. You don't necessarily have to have absurdly cheap fares.

(It would be nice if extension fares could be exempted from any minimum, though - tickets from the London zone boundaries to stations just beyond can be absurdly expensive on a per mile basis, and given these tickets are basically akin to an overdistance excess in that they can only be used as part of a longer journey in combination with another ticket, they should probably be exempt from any minimum fare per mile, including minimum fares applicable to tickets discounted with certain Railcards)
 

Haywain

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(It would be nice if extension fares could be exempted from any minimum, though - tickets from the London zone boundaries to stations just beyond can be absurdly expensive on a per mile basis, and given these tickets are basically akin to an overdistance excess in that they can only be used as part of a longer journey in combination with another ticket, they should probably be exempt from any minimum fare per mile, including minimum fares applicable to tickets discounted with certain Railcards)
You might think they can be "absurdly expensive" fares but for a significant number of people with free travel in London that would amount to a further massive discount.
 

Krokodil

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That is why mileage based pricing is ridiculous; longer, less convenient routes cost *more*, not less.
To look again at the most extreme example (Fort William to Inverness), the only people who would do that journey by rail are those who are deliberately going out of their way for their own amusement (i.e. tourists and enthusiasts). Do you really want to charge the crow-flies rate to them, or should they pay for the considerable mileage they've actually been enjoying the scenery for? Like with York-Whitby a bus exists to cut off the dog leg. You can catch that if you want the shorter & cheaper route.

How much would London to Rugby cost (82 miles via Weedon)? And what if you went via Northampton on the slower and less convenient trains (84 miles)?
Tap in at London, tap out at Rugby. The computer would assume that you've used the most direct route as long as you completed your journey in a reasonable time (so haven't taken the Mickey by going via Warrington) and didn't jump out at Northampton to pop to a shop outside of the barriers (thus creating two separate journeys). No point quibbling about 50p or so for such a tiny difference. I would even apply the same logic to London-Reading, which is a bigger difference. Or there's the Dutch approach where a nominal distance is assigned instead. London to Northampton becomes (for example) four units, Northampton to Rugby two units, London to Rugby six units.

That would make a Single from Amersham to Chalfont & Latimer (for example) 60p and a Return 80p. In a similar vein, Silver Street to Edmonton Green would be an absolute bargain at 15p Single and 20p Return. I can't see TfL agreeing to that for some reason!
How many people actually make that journey? I doubt that it's enough for TfL to care. Overcrowding won't be a concern.
 

redreni

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You might think they can be "absurdly expensive" fares but for a significant number of people with free travel in London that would amount to a further massive discount.
A further discount, I suppose, yes. If it's massive, it's only because the fares for going one stop across a zone boundary are massive given the length of the journey. Those with a free travel pass within London would still be paying for the distance travelled outside London.

In fact, in many cases, there's an argument that they'd still be overpaying because we'd be basing it on the entire distance from the last station in Greater London to the first station outside, rather than from the point the track crosses the Greater London boundary.

As with all conversations about fares reform, though, it gets very hypothetical very quickly, because palatable and revenue neutral proposals don't really exist. I make no apology for making no attempt whatsoever to make my proposals revenue neutral or revenue positive. I am aware that means they're not about to be implemented.
 

AlterEgo

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To look again at the most extreme example (Fort William to Inverness), the only people who would do that journey by rail are those who are deliberately going out of their way for their own amusement (i.e. tourists and enthusiasts). Do you really want to charge the crow-flies rate to them, or should they pay for the considerable mileage they've actually been enjoying the scenery for?
Well, neither. Why are we talking about mileage? What real relevance does it have here and why should people pay in any way *per mile*? What is the obsession with this and why do we assume each mile of railway can be capped at the same price and has the same utility?

This isn't a fare anyone cares about anyway and I reckon close to zero are sold every year.

Tap in at London, tap out at Rugby. The computer would assume that you've used the most direct route as long as you completed your journey in a reasonable time (so haven't taken the Mickey by going via Warrington) and didn't jump out at Northampton to pop to a shop outside of the barriers (thus creating two separate journeys). No point quibbling about 50p or so for such a tiny difference.
So they would cost the same then. Why would the slow and inconvenient route cost the same as the one used by express trains?

Or there's the Dutch approach where a nominal distance is assigned instead.
But the Netherlands is a small country, which has a much less centralised network and comprises almost entirely urbanised areas.
 

Indigo Soup

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All of the IETs I've had into Paddington over the last year have been wedged. These have been on Sundays though, so peak fares don't apply. I'd be interested to know what loadings are like during the peak (when the contactless fare is an eye-watering 84p/mile) and off peak (when it is still pricey at 34p/mile but better value than the 50p/mile fares for similar length single journeys in North Wales). I suspect that there is some spare capacity and that peak fares can come down without causing overcrowding - it may even be a profitable move.

If we're purely looking at what is a reasonable price (without considering how to extract funding from the Treasury), I'm going to set the bar at 30p/mile for single journeys, 25p/mile for period returns and 20p/mile for day returns (for the return tickets don't forget to count the miles in both directions).
We could always go back to the Railway Regulation Act 1844, which limited Third Class fares to 1d/mile. Allowing for inflation at the RPI, that's 56p/mile. By the time it was raised in 1914, it was the equivalent of 52p/mile. So somewhere around that mark is somewhat justifiable, if one must have a cap.
To look again at the most extreme example (Fort William to Inverness), the only people who would do that journey by rail are those who are deliberately going out of their way for their own amusement (i.e. tourists and enthusiasts). Do you really want to charge the crow-flies rate to them, or should they pay for the considerable mileage they've actually been enjoying the scenery for? Like with York-Whitby a bus exists to cut off the dog leg. You can catch that if you want the shorter & cheaper route.
One really ought not to be encouraging people to make circuitous journeys by rail simply because the stations happen to be close as the crow flies! You quote Fort William to Inverness, but Mallaig to Kyle of Lochalsh would be even more egregious. There may be something still more extreme out there.
Many transport networks (and pricing structures more generally) have minimum fares or charges. You could calculate all fares as the minimum fare plus the price per mile, or you could base the fare solely on the price per mile but make that subject to the minimum. You don't necessarily have to have absurdly cheap fares.
I'd suggest that if a bus fare cap is to be part of the national transport strategy, then that cap also ought to act as a floor on rail fares. With joined-up thinking, the result would be very few people taking short train journeys, or long ones by bus.

I will say, I don't think that a fare cap is good policy unless it's set so high as to be useless - whether it's per mile or total. In practice, the barrier to people using trains more isn't so much price, as the fact that they don't go where people want, when they want. The example upthread of a poster with free rail travel choosing not to take the train is quite telling, I think.
 

redreni

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We could always go back to the Railway Regulation Act 1844, which limited Third Class fares to 1d/mile. Allowing for inflation at the RPI, that's 56p/mile. By the time it was raised in 1914, it was the equivalent of 52p/mile. So somewhere around that mark is somewhat justifiable, if one must have a cap.
Lots of things happened in the 1840s, not all of which would be considered justifiable today.
 

Haywain

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If it's massive, it's only because the fares for going one stop across a zone boundary are massive given the length of the journey.
But you want to apply it to all extension fares, and you can get such fares from the London zonal boundaries to places as far afield as King's Lynn, Worcester and Exeter, so it isn't just about one stop.
 

Indigo Soup

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Lots of things happened in the 1840s, not all of which would be considered justifiable today.
Very few of them are justifiable, in fact, which helps the argument. Both wages and standards of living were far lower then than today.

Increasing the 1844 fare cap in line with wage growth, rather than the inflation index, would put it at a staggering £4.35/mile - which even the most mustache-twirlingly-evil railway profiteer would probably think excessive!
 

redreni

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But you want to apply it to all extension fares, and you can get such fares from the London zonal boundaries to places as far afield as King's Lynn, Worcester and Exeter, so it isn't just about one stop.
Apply what? I said if a maximum price per mile were to come in then it could be subject to a minimum fare. Then I said extension fares could be exempt from said minimum fare.

Extension fares for longer journeys might be affected by the maximum price per mile, but the exemption from the minimum fare m would be unlikely to make a difference on longer extensions as the capped per-mile fares would likely be above that anyway. The minimum would only be to avoid absurdities like 20p singles between City Thameslink and Blackfriars etc - I'm not suggesting setting it any higher than a couple of quid.
 

yorksrob

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So why would you trust them to offer cheaper fares in the West Country? Those fares are cheap because most of them were significantly reduced to allow other FGW "baskets" to increase above the RPI+5% rate; it's not really about market forces.

If affordable fares in the west country are reliant on expensive fares near Reading and fares baskets, I fear such things will be swept away with the new railway order anyway.

That aside, given that Cornwall and Devon contain some of the more economically deprived areas in the country, I suspect that swingeing fares increases would achieve little other than empty trains.

LNER. That is all.

If you're citing them as an example of an operator sorely in need of this type of regulation, then I agree with you.

But the Netherlands is a small country, which has a much less centralised network and comprises almost entirely urbanised areas.

I think this point is overdone. England, even Britain is hardly Canada, and a fare cap per mile would reflect distance.
 

Krokodil

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Well, neither. Why are we talking about mileage? What real relevance does it have here and why should people pay in any way *per mile*? What is the obsession with this and why do we assume each mile of railway can be capped at the same price and has the same utility?
Have you got a better idea? Because the chaotic status quo doesn't work. The fact that almost everyone is splitting their tickets (which sometimes comes with unintended consequences) is testament to that.

So they would cost the same then. Why would the slow and inconvenient route cost the same as the one used by express trains?
Are you expecting some kind of discount for going via Northampton? There isn't one at the moment. If you want to slow yourself down and go the two extra miles via Northampton then no one is stopping you. If you don't want to waste 15 minutes sat in the platform there then get on a train that doesn't stop at Northampton, the Trent Valley 1Uxx for example.
 

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