Highbridge? Lowbridge?

[nula]

I'm looking at some old Newcastle upon Tyne buses and they are variously labelled 'Highbridge' or 'Lowbridge'. Example: Leyland PD2/3 Highbridge 1951.

What do Highbridge and Lowbridge mean?

 

[CatfordCat]

I'm looking at some old Necastle upon Tyne buses and they are variously labelled 'Highbridge' or 'Lowbridge'. Example: Leyland PD2/3 Highbridge 1951.

What do Highbridge and Lowbridge mean?

In terms of vehicle height, 'highbridge' buses tended to be around 14 ft 6 inches high, 'lowbridge' buses 13 ft 6.

In body styles, "lowbridge" generally means an arrangement where the upper deck gangway was along the offside, and the seats in rows of four - this also meant that the upper deck gangway cut in to the headroom of the offside lower deck passengers.

a small "please mind your head when leaving the seat" sign was usually fitted to the backs of seats affected.

This article - http://www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=3456 - has photos showing a typical "lowbridge" bus.

Needless to say, these weren't all that comfortable for passengers or conductors.

In some parts of the country, they were quite rare (London Transport for example had less than 100 in their fleet of many thousands, some of the 'Tillings' companies had them as the standard double decker in to the 1950s.)

In the early 1950s, Bristol came up with the 'Lodekka' concept, using a drop-centre rear axle to allow a standard seating layout within a 13 ft 6 height. Such styles are generally considered "low height" rather than "low bridge"

By the late 50s, Dennis were producing the Loline, which used Bristol's patents under licence, and in to the 1960s, AEC offered the Bridgemaster, and first generation rear engined buses could also offer a low height version - although some Atlanteans had 'semi lowbridge' layouts towards the rear of the bus.

The combination of this, and the availability of longer single deckers that could accommodate nearly as many people as a double decker, led to the style becoming obsolete - although the last of all was (now preserved) PAX 446F, a 1968 Leyland PD3 / Massey new to one of the smaller Welsh municipals.

 

[nula]

CatfordCat

Fantastic!! Thank you very much.

 

[martinsh]

In terms of vehicle height, 'highbridge' buses tended to be around 14 ft 6 inches high, 'lowbridge' buses 13 ft 6.

In body styles, "lowbridge" generally means an arrangement where the upper deck gangway was along the offside, and the seats in rows of four - this also meant that the upper deck gangway cut in to the headroom of the offside lower deck passengers.

a small "please mind your head when leaving the seat" sign was usually fitted to the backs of seats affected.

This article - http://www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=3456 - has photos showing a typical "lowbridge" bus.

Needless to say, these weren't all that comfortable for passengers or conductors.

In some parts of the country, they were quite rare (London Transport for example had less than 100 in their fleet of many thousands, some of the 'Tillings' companies had them as the standard double decker in to the 1950s.)

In the early 1950s, Bristol came up with the 'Lodekka' concept, using a drop-centre rear axle to allow a standard seating layout within a 13 ft 6 height. Such styles are generally considered "low height" rather than "low bridge"

By the late 50s, Dennis were producing the Loline, which used Bristol's patents under licence, and in to the 1960s, AEC offered the Bridgemaster, and first generation rear engined buses could also offer a low height version - although some Atlanteans had 'semi lowbridge' layouts towards the rear of the bus.

The combination of this, and the availability of longer single deckers that could accommodate nearly as many people as a double decker, led to the style becoming obsolete - although the last of all was (now preserved) PAX 446F, a 1968 Leyland PD3 / Massey new to one of the smaller Welsh municipals.

Though just to confuse things, there was also the unique Barton "super-low-height" bus, which had a lowbridge body on a lowheight chassis It was only 12ft 6in high !

http://www.dennissociety.org.uk/preserved/bus/861hal.html

 

[455driver]

I used to drive for Yorkshire Traction who had Bristol VRs of 13ft 8in and 13ft 5in height.

They could be told apart because the 13ft 8in ones had a narrow white band between the windscreens and destination display but this was missing on the 13ft 5in ones because the 3in was taken out between the floors.

A normal double decker is 14ft 6in in height.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The combination of this, and the availability of longer single deckers that could accommodate nearly as many people as a double decker, led to the style becoming obsolete - although the last of all was (now preserved) PAX 446F, a 1968 Leyland PD3 / Massey new to one of the smaller Welsh municipals.

PEDANT ALERT - Think it was PAX466F delivered to Bedwas and Machen UDC (that was then folded into Rhymney Valley) - it later ended up with Stevensons of Uttoxeter and I think Julian Peddle may still own it
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I used to drive for Yorkshire Traction who had Bristol VRs of 13ft 8in and 13ft 5in height.

They could be told apart because the 13ft 8in ones had a narrow white band between the windscreens and destination display but this was missing on the 13ft 5in ones because the 3in was taken out between the floors.

A normal double decker is 14ft 6in in height.

You're right on VRs and they had ultra low height, low height and highbridge version with those heights on ECW bodies. East Midland had a set of VRs that were in one registration batch (DWF-V) that was part 13'8 with others being 14'6 (having been diverted from Northern General.

In the North East, you had United specifying low height deckers whilst Northern always ordered full height (though they did get some low height VRs - another NBC divert) despite having very similar operating territory.

There isn't a true definition of what constitutes low height but it's generally below 14' is low and above is high.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Of course, there was always.....

..and yes, it was just about as tight as it appears to be.

 

[Busaholic]

Of course, there was always.....

..and yes, it was just about as tight as it appears to be.

East Yorkshire used to especially recruit conductors with pointed heads to work the Beverley Bar routes.

 

[Strathclyder]

This railway bridge in Busby, East Renfrewshire is a pretty tight fit, even for a E400:

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I used to drive for Yorkshire Traction who had Bristol VRs of 13ft 8in and 13ft 5in height.

They could be told apart because the 13ft 8in ones had a narrow white band between the windscreens and destination display but this was missing on the 13ft 5in ones because the 3in was taken out between the floors.

A normal double decker is 14ft 6in in height.

Books and articles always state that the VR came in 4 heights.. 13' 1, 13'5, 13'8 and 14'6 however I seem to remember United Counties having a batch of VRs with a height of 12' 9. They had a triangular bar in the cab saying "special low height" I also remember that even as a teenager of average height I had to duck my head on both decks... can anyone clarify whether they actually existed or was it just a figment of my imagination?

 

[455driver]

The only ones I know of was the 13'5, 13'8 and 14'6 but remember this was a time when if you wanted something different then they would build it for you so anything is possible.

 

[jp4712]

Does this help?

The first pic is a lowbridge double decker undergoing restoration. The seats are just placed loosely, but what's clear is that the gangway is on the right, at a sunken level. Then the seats were to the left of this, arranged in a long row of four.

Click for bigger size

Wigan Corporation 70, November 1996 (4) by jp4712, on Flickr

The second view is downstairs on the same bus. Because that gangway on the right was 'sunken', ie at a lower level, it now protrudes into the lower saloon over the offside seats - hence the 'please mind your head' notices referred to earlier.

Click for bigger size

Wigan Corporation 70, Manchester Museum of Transport, April 2014 by jp4712, on Flickr

 

[CatfordCat]

PEDANT ALERT - Think it was PAX466F delivered to Bedwas and Machen UDC (that was then folded into Rhymney Valley) - it later ended up with Stevensons of Uttoxeter and I think Julian Peddle may still own it

Indeed. That was a typo on my part.

I seem to remember that it had a stint at MK Metro (Milton Keynes) when Mr Peddle was involved there

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed. That was a typo on my part.

I seem to remember that it had a stint at MK Metro (Milton Keynes) when Mr Peddle was involved there

Indeed it was at Winterhill along with another notable decker, B45 prototype NJA568W

 

[Busaholic]

Books and articles always state that the VR came in 4 heights.. 13' 1, 13'5, 13'8 and 14'6 however I seem to remember United Counties having a batch of VRs with a height of 12' 9. They had a triangular bar in the cab saying "special low height" I also remember that even as a teenager of average height I had to duck my head on both decks... can anyone clarify whether they actually existed or was it just a figment of my imagination?

I'm not an expert on the VR, but I always understood it came in two different heights, 'highbridge' at 14'6 and 'lowbridge' at 13'8, these being the two heights which would attract full Bus Grant from the Dept of Transport. The only exception I know of, in UK at least, is the batch of 13'5 ers for City of Oxford Motor Services. Possibly these may have been for its South Midland subsidiary and, with reorganisation in the NBC, some may have ended up with United Counties.
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The only ones I know of was the 13'5, 13'8 and 14'6 but remember this was a time when if you wanted something different then they would build it for you so anything is possible.

Although I think you are correct about the three height variations, I don't think you could be more wrong with your conclusion. The VR was originally designed to be available in both single and double deck configuration, but NBC and Leyland, both government-controlled at the time, made sure only the Leyland National got built. It was already known that Bristol Motors, and Eastern Coach Works, were for the chop and doing one-off jobs for a fairly minor (in the scale of things) company like United Counties wouldn't have been further from their minds. The days of 'special jobs' for the likes of Walsall Corporation ended in the mid to late 60s with the demise of Guy and AEC and the eclipse of Dennis, as well as bodybuilders like Massey, and the later creation of the British Leyland monolith.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

A long while ago, but when I drove buses the Glasgow Corporation 'deckers were 14' 6" (mainly Alexander bodied Leyland Atlanteans by then, but a few older ones still going) and the Alexander's Midland/Western SMT deckers were 13' 8" (mainly Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetlines but again few older buses).

I have not encountered anything less than 13' 8" in Central Scotland. Driving many different lengths and heights of vehicle on many different service and hire routes you had to be very sure you were aware (and mindful) of the dimensions.