Highland Spring siding Blackford

[AVK17]

Whats the latest with this? Are the trains using the depot?

No, there hasn’t been any commercial traffic yet since the terminal opened. It’s looking like a very expensive white elephant so far.

 

[ld0595]

No, there hasn’t been any commercial traffic yet since the terminal opened. It’s looking like a very expensive white elephant so far.

Any idea why there hasn't been any commercial traffic? When should we expect it to begin?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I see there are two paths a day each way from and to Mossend. I wonder if the wagons will be shunted into forward trains at Mossend or the containers transshipped from one wagon to another.

 

[Tyrion]

No, there hasn’t been any commercial traffic yet since the terminal opened. It’s looking like a very expensive white elephant so far.

DRS have not started running services
due to staff and locos being utilised on RHTT contract, should be starting when leaf fall season stops.

 

[Freightmaster]

DRS have not started running services
due to staff and locos being utilised on RHTT contract, should be starting when leaf fall season stops.

That's what I heard too, but does it mean that the train will have cease running for
two months every Autumn because DRS don't have enough resources to spare at
this time of the year??




MARK

 

[zwk500]

To challenge the premise of end-to-end trainload, why cant a trainload be made up as it progresses on its journey?

It can, but it costs more. The earlier pickups have a slower delivery, and you need staff at multiple locations at the right time. If there's enough load to make a full train at one terminal, it makes sense to minimise the cost to the operation.

That's what I heard too, but does it mean that the train will have cease running for
two months every Autumn because DRS don't have enough resources to spare at
this time of the year??

Presumably if this traffic turns into a regular runner then it gives DRS almost a year to put resources in place for next Autumn?

 

[Tyrion]

That's what I heard too, but does it mean that the train will have cease running for
two months every Autumn because DRS don't have enough resources to spare at
this time of the year??




MARK

I believe they looked at another FOC to help out but they don’t have staff either at moment! A story in a lot of areas am told.
Perhaps the knee jerk reaction of 2016/17 when erse fell out of coal is coming back to bite the FOCs a bit.

 

[HSTEd]

To challenge the premise of end-to-end trainload, why cant a trainload be made up as it progresses on its journey?

Because this is enormously labour intensive, especially in the absence of fully automated hump yards or similar.

 

[Sonik]

Because this is enormously labour intensive, especially in the absence of fully automated hump yards or similar.

Compared to a line of trucks, with a driver in each?

If the shunter can travel on the train you just need two people, albeit that's probably not viable everywhere.

Ok a bit of hard standing, maybe even a transit shed - but still - 5 YEARS!

What hope is there in Scotland for a meaningful expansion of rail freight at this woeful rate of progress?

Tesco were talking about using Georgemas Nuclear terminal to run containers for onward delivery by road to Wick and Thurso. I'd presume they will only do non-perishable and send a trainload as required.

Not sure if it's gone anywhere but it's the kind of opportunities that are good to explore, especially since it's using an existing facility.

 

[zwk500]

If the shunter can travel on the train you just need two people, albeit that's probably not viable everywhere.

If there needs to be a shunter ready at the yard to accept the train (as there normally does), this would involve a long dwell on the main line as the shunter has to get down from the train and walk up to the yard from the previous signal. You'll also need to get the shunter from home to the first yard, and then from the last yard back home. And all of that has to be done within the shunter's working hours. There might be places where it's viable, but is the first shipper willing to accept the delay and cost to their shipment?

 

[Sonik]

If there needs to be a shunter ready at the yard to accept the train (as there normally does), this would involve a long dwell on the main line as the shunter has to get down from the train and walk up to the yard from the previous signal. You'll also need to get the shunter from home to the first yard, and then from the last yard back home. And all of that has to be done within the shunter's working hours. There might be places where it's viable, but is the first shipper willing to accept the delay and cost to their shipment?

Like all these things it's all about critical mass. If you can aggregate enough volume from different local users it may start to work but the problem is getting started as you alluded.

Something to thing consider is that the coming of EVs will fundamentally change the dynamics of road haulage, in terms of range, timings and access to charging infrastructure (and therefore costs). Which may leave openings for rail in certain areas where it wasn't previously competitive.

It's a shame that it seems so difficult to build terminals but I'm heartened that someone like Tesco are using their scale to lead the way with some of these things.

Highland spring is interesting too, we can debate the merits of the product but it's good to see shipments originating from a producer going directly onto rail, even if only to prove the concept can work.

 

[Wynd]

I'm not sure im following. If there are reception style sidings, as in loops, train pulls in, forklift/container grab loads container on to flat wagon, train departs loop in the same direction it arrived in. Conversely, it could be used to drop containers.

I appreciate that this is more work than end to end trainloads, in that the train has to stop, set off, setting points and signals, etc, but I cannot be the first one to think of this idea. Also, I was not thinking of that many stops. Maybe 3 or 4 tops between the CB and Aberdeen/Inverness.

 

[GusB]

Highland spring water can be found in every major retail outlet up here in the shire, how does it get here...

To challenge the premise of end-to-end trainload, why cant a trainload be made up as it progresses on its journey?

Most retailers will distribute goods from a centralised hub, then on to various local or regional distribution centres before final delivery to the shops. When I worked at the Co-op I was shocked to find out that biscuits that were made in Huntly went all the way to Coventry before being transported back up north, but that just the way it works!

 

[zwk500]

I'm not sure im following. If there are reception style sidings, as in loops, train pulls in, forklift/container grab loads container on to flat wagon, train departs loop in the same direction it arrived in. Conversely, it could be used to drop containers.

You need somebody to drive the stacker and somebody to secure the twistlocks, as well as a shunter to accept the train and set the points. For 1/3 or 1/4 a train, this isn't a very efficient use of staff unless you have lots of trains going to different destinations, which is not how Tesco's distribution works. If you bring the staff on the train with you, you'll need to wait at each yard for them to find the stacker and loading plan, (or even to unlock the gates and accept the train). You'll also need to get them home again. 3 staff at 3 sites each for a couple of hours is not a great use of resource.
If you fully-signalled the loops so they're under the control of the signaller then you get into Trackside working rules, which means different training and qualifications. This is workable though if you have space for walking routes etc.

Economically, if a site is producing enough product for, say, 1 train a week, and you have 3 sites in a line that could be served by the same train, it's more economical to have serve each site once per week with a full load than it is to serve all sites 3 times a week with a partial load. You need less total staff and have a more reliable path.

 

[najaB]

Economically, if a site is producing enough product for, say, 1 train a week, and you have 3 sites in a line that could be served by the same train, it's more economical to have serve each site once per week with a full load than it is to serve all sites 3 times a week with a partial load. You need less total staff and have a more reliable path.

The only exception to that would be if it's time-sensitive cargo, but then you're probably not going to be sending it by rail anyway.

 

[zwk500]

The only exception to that would be if it's time-sensitive cargo, but then you're probably not going to be sending it by rail anyway.

Yes, if it's time sensitive you're probably sending it by road in the UK.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Most (probably all) yards need to have a shunter present (and signalman advised) before signalling a train in. In many cases there is a release that has to be operated to release the points. Trains will often be held back until the yard is confirmed as manned; the congestion that would ensue if done otherwise doesn't bear thinking about.
Pat

 

[HSTEd]

Compared to a line of trucks, with a driver in each?

Yes, the lorry driver picks up their load, and drives straight to the destination, then comes back.

It's a much simpler scheduling operation. There is an irreducible minimum of staffing required for rail operations that doesn't scale with the number of wagons being moved at once.

 

[CEN60]

Whats the latest with this? Are the trains using the depot?

Would it not have been an idea to have a northbound access so that existing HML frights could have looped in and out of the terminal, had containers added or removed, and trundled on without any shunting or decoupling?

I recall way back a Northbound was looked at - in fact you wouldn't believe the original single connection to the North that was proposed and the nonsense that would have to have gone on to get a train out and go south (it was midblowingly stupid and all to do with the mechanical interlocking in the existing signal box). The reason there is no northbound connection in addition to what has been installed is the existing main road level crossing is in the way - or to be more precise "cost" to try and get rid of it.

 

[najaB]

The reason there is no northbound connection in addition to what has been installed is the existing main road level crossing is in the way - or to be more precise "cost" to try and get rid of it.

Why is cost in scare quotes? I can't imagine it would be cheap to eliminate the level crossing.

 

[CEN60]

Why is cost in scare quotes? I can't imagine it would be cheap to eliminate the level crossing.

And how would you eliminate the main road crossing - you would need to build a bridge (either over or under) - not cheap and the surrounding topography makes it difficult to maintain a road alignment and get it up and over the railway (with future electrification clearances) - as I mentioned "scary" costs. All these things were looked at way back.

 

[Wynd]

Most retailers will distribute goods from a centralised hub, then on to various local or regional distribution centres before final delivery to the shops. When I worked at the Co-op I was shocked to find out that biscuits that were made in Huntly went all the way to Coventry before being transported back up north, but that just the way it works!

Madness.

And how would you eliminate the main road crossing - you would need to build a bridge (either over or under) - not cheap and the surrounding topography makes it difficult to maintain a road alignment and get it up and over the railway (with future electrification clearances) - as I mentioned "scary" costs. All these things were looked at way back.

Good to know it has been considered.

So per the above, we should see some scheduled freight services from this depot in the coming weeks then?

 

[najaB]

And how would you eliminate the main road crossing - you would need to build a bridge (either over or under) - not cheap and the surrounding topography makes it difficult to maintain a road alignment and get it up and over the railway (with future electrification clearances) - as I mentioned "scary" costs. All these things were looked at way back.

I understand all that. What I don't get is why put costs in quotes? They are legitimate costs, not "costs".

 

[Sonik]

Yes, the lorry driver picks up their load, and drives straight to the destination, then comes back.

It's a much simpler scheduling operation. There is an irreducible minimum of staffing required for rail operations that doesn't scale with the number of wagons being moved at once.

I get the scheduling issue, trucks are simply way more flexible in terms of endpoints that can be economically served. But a truck only moves one container at a time so it's not really an equal comparison; trainloads are much cheaper for bulk flow between two points. As others pointed out above most distribution is centralized anyway, not so much goes direct point-to-point.

IMO the ideal is to combine the advantages of both modes, which is why we need more railheads. It is getting easier for smaller players to participate as the trunk network of depots and scheduled interliners grows. Ironically this is much easier to achieve for import/export, because the flows are concentrated around the ports.

Which is why Highland Spring is a very interesting development - it's a domestic producer of retail goods.

 

[najaB]

IMO the ideal is to try combine the advantages of both modes, which is why we need more railheads. It's will get easier for smaller players to participate as the trunk network of depots and scheduled interliners grows.

It's the usual chicken vs egg situation. Who is going to pay for the railheads and staff when there's no demand, and where is the demand going to come from if there are no railheads?

 

[Bald Rick]

trainloads are much cheaper for bulk flow between two points.

Depends how far apart those points are. Not many bulk flows in boxes under 100 miles on rails.

 

[Starmill]

There is Immingham - Doncaster iPort for the short flows. Rather rare example though.

 

[HSTEd]

trainloads are much cheaper for bulk flow between two points. As others pointed out above most distribution is centralized anyway, not so much goes direct point-to-point.

I very much doubt that the production of this highland spring water plant really qualifies as a "bulk" load in the conventional sense.

How many thousand tonnes does it want to ship by rail per week? It's entire annual production is apparently only around 500,000 tonnes - and that will be distributed to multiple end points.


Bottled water is also very much unlike most other loads - its one of the few containerised loads likely to mass out before it cubes out.

As Bald Rick says, the distances in the UK are comparatively very short - and marshalling trains is going to dramatically increase your breakeven distances because of the extra costs. Especially if you are forced by lack of volume and infrastructure to resort to tedious flat shunting.

 

[Bald Rick]

I very much doubt that the production of this highland spring water plant really qualifies as a "bulk" load in the conventional sense.

How many thousand tonnes does it want to ship by rail per week? It's entire annual production is apparently only around 500,000 tonnes - and that will be distributed to multiple end points.

it’s about half that at Blackford. The other half of Highland Spring’s production is spread across their other sites, principally in the Campsie fells and in Brecon.

Which means it’s about 4-5000 tonnes a week From Blackford. Roughly a train a day for its entire production, if it is all going to the same place.

Perhaps they could boost it with some Tullibardine from next door? They produce about 7 tonnes of whisky a day

 

[Sonik]

Most retailers will distribute goods from a centralised hub, then on to various local or regional distribution centres before final delivery to the shops. When I worked at the Co-op I was shocked to find out that biscuits that were made in Huntly went all the way to Coventry before being transported back up north, but that just the way it works!

Looking at this you can (albeit simplistically) say:

1) Port > Central Distribution = Bulk Flow (Single Goods) Train works well
2) Producer > Central distribution = Bulk flow (Single Goods) Train may work
3) Central distribution > Regional railhead = Bulk flow (Mixed goods) Train works
4) Regional railhead > end destination (e.g. retail) = Small flow (Mixed goods) Trucks only.

Which means it’s about 4-5000 tonnes a week From Blackford. Roughly a train a day for its entire production, if it is all going to the same place.

Perhaps they could boost it with some Tullibardine from next door? They produce about 7 tonnes of whisky a day

I guess the key points there are that none of it is perishable, so you can send larger quantities less often, and combining multiple flows where possible all helps. There must be plenty of places where similar situations arise.

The value of (i.e. the investment in) the actual goods in transit is though another factor, it's essentially the economic basis for JIT fulfillment. Stock level has costs, Water and Whiskey are quite different here!

As Bald Rick says, the distances in the UK are comparatively very short - and marshalling trains is going to dramatically increase your breakeven distances because of the extra costs. Especially if you are forced by lack of volume and infrastructure to resort to tedious flat shunting.

I'd bet that the vast majority of Highland Spring's output travels more than 200 miles, because the population distribution (and therefore demand) is nearly all south of the border, and most of it a lot further. There's no need to do any shunting, that's what containers are for, and break of bulk is done off rail at places like DIRFT, for the supermarkets at least. Even many local shops have distribution somewhat centralized via the likes of NISA/Londis/Spar etc.

Outbound goods are then in mixed container/swap body loads destined for regional distribution or even individual retail stores, which can then fan out from places like Mossend and Barking by road. We can also be sure that Tesco et al will be loading their trains with local products for the journey back, just as they do widely with trucks. That lowers the threshold of viability for putting smaller loads on trains considerably.

It's the usual chicken vs egg situation. Who is going to pay for the railheads and staff when there's no demand, and where is the demand going to come from if there are no railheads?

Speculative property developers, and logistics providers, when they see opportunity. This is a huge growth area already with the likes of Stobart, Malcolm and Maritime acting as aggregators. The bigger this network grows, the lower the barriers to entry become for smaller players.

The big supermarkets have scale all on their own. They wouldn't be using rail already if it wasn't cheaper.