Hillsborough Disaster - Some Questions

[whhistle]

I have very little knowledge of what happened but wanted to ask a couple of questions about this event.

From reading online, the police opened a gate that allowed even more supporters into an area that caused a crush where people died.

I accept the police are not innocent as they constantly blamed the fans, when they do need to share some responsibility.

But surely, and ultimately, there were too many tickets sold for the event - and that lies with the club? Greed before safety?

And surely, the fans had a choice. They could see it was very busy, so why not move to a less busy area or accept you won't be able to get in to the stadium to see the match?

Both the fans and the ticket sales have been downplayed when I'd have thought they are equal to the police allowing fans in. It's not like the fans were forced to move in to that area though? But then I see this with train travel. Some people fail to understand it's a choice. They could get a new job, learn to drive, get a taxi - all of which are probably inpractical but the option is still there; it's just less hassle to catch the train.

I don't understand why some people of Liverpool refuse to sell/buy The Sun. I get they printed headlines suggesting it was the fans fault, but even now, after all these years, I don't really understand why some people still hold a grudge?
I get those who were affected but I wonder if there are people who wern't affected who still "don't like" the police or shops that don't stock The Sun. Do these people hold a grudge over German people for the war? Probably not. Because they didn't live through it. So I guess I'm trying to understand people and why you would hold a grudge over one thing, but not over another?

The last thing I don't understand is the constant thrust of some groups of people who have demmanded inquest after inquest... it's sort of like they'll keep trying until they get the result they want. I'm all for try and try again but would they be happy for a murderer to do the same until they are allowed out of prison? It's bound to happen if you keep trying.
It's just the sort of "non-acceptance" attitude that I don't understand.
But then again, I guess after the first one that didn't acknowledge the police force's errors then it may have been on the right side of the scale to have another investigation.

I don't mean to be ignorant or insensitive, just trying to learn a bit more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But surely, and ultimately, there were too many tickets sold for the event - and that lies with the club? Greed before safety?

Back then I believe tickets were mostly not sold in advance, you paid cash on the turnstile. So people turned up on spec with the hope of getting in. The disaster prompted the move towards all-seater stadia with a much lower capacity and mostly (because of selling out) tickets purchased in advance.

Both the fans and the ticket sales have been downplayed when I'd have thought they are equal to the police allowing fans in. It's not like the fans were forced to move in to that area though?

Have you ever been in a serious crush, e.g. at the front of a gig by the stage? Once a few people push from the back, you genuinely have no choice, you go with the crowd - which I believe is why the Police opened the gates, with the intention of trying to disperse it into the ground, but with tragic consequences.

I don't understand why some people of Liverpool refuse to sell/buy The Sun. I get they printed headlines suggesting it was the fans fault, but even now, after all these years, I don't really understand why some people still hold a grudge?

It's a filthy rag anyway, it doesn't take much to put one off it

 

[The_Train]

From reading online, the police opened a gate that allowed even more supporters into an area that caused a crush where people died.

I accept the police are not innocent as they constantly blamed the fans, when they do need to share some responsibility.

But surely, and ultimately, there were too many tickets sold for the event - and that lies with the club? Greed before safety?

I'm no expert on this but I'll give my take on certain points of your post. I believe the gate was opened because there was a genuine concern for safety outside the stadium as more and more fans arrived at the stadium. It was clearly a poor decision as it was obvious that a concern for the amount of people in an area outside the stadium is not going to be alleviated by sending all of these people into a more confined space.

As for the ticketing situation there have been many issues discussed many times. The first and most obvious one was that (apparently) there were a large number of Liverpool fans who turned up to the stadium without a ticket which inflated the numbers and pushed the capacity of the Leppings Lane end to breaking point. Another point regarding this is that back in the day when stadia was standing, a lot of clubs simply didn't know what the maximum capacity could be on terraces and as H&S wasn't deemed quite as important as it is these days, clubs were allowed to continually oversell terraced areas.

And surely, the fans had a choice. They could see it was very busy, so why not move to a less busy area or accept you won't be able to get in to the stadium to see the match?

Again, I'm not 100% sure but I believe the Leppings Lane end was set up in the style of 'pens' so not only were there fences at the front there will also fences dividing the stand up. So once fans entered one area they were then unable to move to another area of the stand. So in this case not only were there too many fans for the stand, a large chunk of these were sent into one penned area.

I don't understand why some people of Liverpool refuse to sell/buy The Sun. I get they printed headlines suggesting it was the fans fault, but even now, after all these years, I don't really understand why some people still hold a grudge?
I get those who were affected but I wonder if there are people who wern't affected who still "don't like" the police or shops that don't stock The Sun. Do these people hold a grudge over German people for the war? Probably not. Because they didn't live through it. So I guess I'm trying to understand people and why you would hold a grudge over one thing, but not over another?

The last thing I don't understand is the constant thrust of some groups of people who have demmanded inquest after inquest... it's sort of like they'll keep trying until they get the result they want. I'm all for try and try again but would they be happy for a murderer to do the same until they are allowed out of prison? It's bound to happen if you keep trying.
It's just the sort of "non-acceptance" attitude that I don't understand.

I think you've answered your own question regarding why Liverpool folk hold grudges against The Sun (they didn't just blame fans for the events, they also reported Liverpool fans were robbing and urinating on the dead and dying) and the police. It's more difficult for us to understand situations that don't directly affect us, particularly as time goes by, but when you've lost loved ones who simply went to support their football club I imagine you want answers as to why and also it's natural to want to see justice.

The fact that their efforts has seen people charged with various offences relating to that very sad day makes said efforts very worthwhile. I'm sure these people wouldn't have spent years and years of their lives chasing justice if they believed it had been an accident of sorts and the police did everything they could to ensure the safety of fans. People have spent their lives chasing justice because they believed people were liable for the events of that day and these people should be applauded for maintaining these efforts in the face of the many hurdles they've had to overcome.

 

[thejuggler]

"I have very little knowledge of what happened"

Spend time reading more of the official reports - all the answers you seek are in there. Start with Wikipedia - whilst it has its faults it has links to everything you need to know.

I watched the events on TV - it was terrible.

 

[pedr]

The Wikipedia article provides responses to many of the misconceptions in this post: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster - notably no police were in position to direct people to the less full side pens when they exited a tunnel with the entrances to the central pens directly in front of them, so people were unaware of the conditions in the pens when they tried to enter them - and by entering they both prevented people ahead of them leaving and were themselves trapped by people behind them.

I don’t know if it’s clear that too many tickets were sold - the disaster’s immediate cause wasn’t too many people allowed into the stadium as a whole, but too many people in two specific confined spaces within the stadium with no escape. Many of those entering the stadium were doing so to relieve life-threatening conditions outside the stadium.

Employees responsible for The Sun’s coverage of the disaster didn’t suffer any consequences for it. Kelvin MacKenzie, who was editor at the time, has continued to have a full newspaper career and is now a Sun columnist again.

If a convicted murderer has evidence which suggests cover ups, misinformation, inaccuracies in formal rulings and determinations, validated by independent investigations then no-one should argue that the safety of that conviction shouldn’t be reviewed. The safety of conclusions on the disaster based on significant deliberate and inadvertent errors needed to be reconsidered, and they rightly were.

 

[tony_mac]

I The first and most obvious one was that (apparently) there were a large number of Liverpool fans who turned up to the stadium without a ticket

Even the Taylor report from 1990 says that isn't true (there were 'small groups without tickets'). And that was when they believed the police were all telling the truth.

 

[DarloRich]

I have very little knowledge of what happened but wanted to ask a couple of questions about this event.

From reading online, the police opened a gate that allowed even more supporters into an area that caused a crush where people died.

I accept the police are not innocent as they constantly blamed the fans, when they do need to share some responsibility.

But surely, and ultimately, there were too many tickets sold for the event - and that lies with the club? Greed before safety?

And surely, the fans had a choice. They could see it was very busy, so why not move to a less busy area or accept you won't be able to get in to the stadium to see the match?

Both the fans and the ticket sales have been downplayed when I'd have thought they are equal to the police allowing fans in. It's not like the fans were forced to move in to that area though? But then I see this with train travel. Some people fail to understand it's a choice. They could get a new job, learn to drive, get a taxi - all of which are probably inpractical but the option is still there; it's just less hassle to catch the train.

I don't understand why some people of Liverpool refuse to sell/buy The Sun. I get they printed headlines suggesting it was the fans fault, but even now, after all these years, I don't really understand why some people still hold a grudge?
I get those who were affected but I wonder if there are people who wern't affected who still "don't like" the police or shops that don't stock The Sun. Do these people hold a grudge over German people for the war? Probably not. Because they didn't live through it. So I guess I'm trying to understand people and why you would hold a grudge over one thing, but not over another?

The last thing I don't understand is the constant thrust of some groups of people who have demmanded inquest after inquest... it's sort of like they'll keep trying until they get the result they want. I'm all for try and try again but would they be happy for a murderer to do the same until they are allowed out of prison? It's bound to happen if you keep trying.
It's just the sort of "non-acceptance" attitude that I don't understand.
But then again, I guess after the first one that didn't acknowledge the police force's errors then it may have been on the right side of the scale to have another investigation.

I don't mean to be ignorant or insensitive, just trying to learn a bit more.

Please do some research. These questions have been comprehensively dismissed as nonsense. You are very close to making yourself look a fool and ignorant. I can feel my blood already boiling (especially the guff about tickets and continued enquires) so will step back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, I'm not 100% sure but I believe the Leppings Lane end was set up in the style of 'pens' so not only were there fences at the front there will also fences dividing the stand up. So once fans entered one area they were then unable to move to another area of the stand. So in this case not only were there too many fans for the stand, a large chunk of these were sent into one penned area.

This layout isn't unusual even now, though obviously all-seater. One notable stadium that is laid out that way is Old Trafford - this caught me out when I went there to watch a couple of Olympic matches - I was in one "pen" (with its own turnstile, entrance from outside and a few hundred seats in each), my parents were in another, and there was no way to meet during half time without leaving the stadium and being unable to re-enter.

 

[The_Train]

Even the Taylor report from 1990 says that isn't true (there were 'small groups without tickets'). And that was when they believed the police were all telling the truth.

Oooohhhhh I've learnt something new there then. I genuinely thought this story was actually upheld but obviously not then

 

[The_Train]

This layout isn't unusual even now, though obviously all-seater. One notable stadium that is laid out that way is Old Trafford - this caught me out when I went there to watch a couple of Olympic matches - I was in one "pen" (with its own turnstile, entrance from outside and a few hundred seats in each), my parents were in another, and there was no way to meet during half time without leaving the stadium and being unable to re-enter.

I've not had the privilege of visiting many larger stadia as my time following football was spent at lower league grounds. Is this divide all the way down the stands then or inside the concourse where blocks are divided? I'm quite surprised to hear that a ground such as Old Trafford has such a feature to be honest.

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t know if it’s clear that too many tickets were sold - the disaster’s immediate cause wasn’t too many people allowed into the stadium as a whole, but too many people in two specific confined spaces within the stadium with no escape. Many of those entering the stadium were doing so to relieve life-threatening conditions outside the stadium.

There were not too many tickets sold. The number sold was commensurate with the capacity of the ground.

I've not had the privilege of visiting many larger stadia as my time following football was spent at lower league grounds. Is this divide all the way down the stands then or inside the concourse where blocks are divided? I'm quite surprised to hear that a ground such as Old Trafford has such a feature to be honest.

Without knowing which stand at OT we are talking about it is hard to know. It may well be part of the ground used for visiting fans ( or can be used for visiting fans on a bigger game)

 

[The_Train]

Without knowing which stand at OT we are talking about it is hard to know. It may well be part of the ground used for visiting fans ( or can be used for visiting fans on a bigger game)

We'll yeah that would make sense. I'm pretty sure every grounds away end is segregated in some way from the home fans. That said, you'd think there would be a way of opening up the segregation for neutral events

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've not had the privilege of visiting many larger stadia as my time following football was spent at lower league grounds. Is this divide all the way down the stands then or inside the concourse where blocks are divided? I'm quite surprised to hear that a ground such as Old Trafford has such a feature to be honest.

I'm not sure I quite understand the question, but each block of a few hundred seats has a completely separate turnstile and entrance/exit (no doubt an emergency exit too, I just wasn't looking for it) from the outside of the stand, as well as, if applicable, its own staircase(s) from ground level.

 

[The_Train]

I'm not sure I quite understand the question, but each block of a few hundred seats has a completely separate turnstile and entrance/exit (no doubt an emergency exit too, I just wasn't looking for it) from the outside of the stand, as well as, if applicable, its own staircase(s) from ground level.

I think that's pretty standard at all stadia, particularly those that are 'bowls' (ie have all corners filled in). However, I assume that in theory you could still move freely from block to block inside the actual stadium's seating area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's pretty standard at all stadia, particularly those that are 'bowls' (ie have all corners filled in). However, I assume that in theory you could still move freely from block to block inside the actual stadium's seating area?

No, in this case you couldn't (or not without climbing a wall/fence[1]) - the blocks are completely self contained, even having their own toilets and a small refreshments kiosk. That's what I found remarkable about it.

[1] Not a really high one, for obvious reasons.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure I quite understand the question, but each block of a few hundred seats has a completely separate turnstile and entrance/exit (no doubt an emergency exit too, I just wasn't looking for it) from the outside of the stand, as well as, if applicable, its own staircase(s) from ground level.

I think that's pretty standard at all stadia, particularly those that are 'bowls' (ie have all corners filled in). However, I assume that in theory you could still move freely from block to block inside the actual stadium's seating area?

you usually can via the concourse at least until you reach the away section or the end of the stand.

No, in this case you couldn't (or not without climbing a wall/fence[1]) - the blocks are completely self contained, even having their own toilets and a small refreshments kiosk. That's what I found remarkable about it.
[1] Not a really high one, for obvious reasons.

Sounds like a segregated section, if not the main away section, a part that can be used for away fans if the game demands it ( allocations are higher for FA cup games for instance)

I have only ever been in the main stand and the away section at OT so am not an expert btw

 

[AlterEgo]

OP - read the inquest (singular - there has been only one, contrary to your belief, as the original one was so badly flawed it and its findings were quashed).

For some additional colour as to why the Hillsborough disaster is so sensitive:

1) Hillsborough is an A-Grade atrocity, an era-defining blot on our country.
2) The fans, both surviving victims and the deceased, were blamed for their own deaths by sections of the media and the police. The fans were categorically not at fault for their deaths nor was their behaviour a factor in the events that unfolded.
3) The events occurred following 10-15 years of serious football hooliganism. Hooligans had always been a minority, but stadium design (eg: pens with fences built to prevent escape onto the pitch) was very much in keeping with the idea that hooligans should be contained. None of the deceased were football hooligans. The selection of, and design of, Hillsborough were significant contributory causes to the disaster.
4) Emergency response was poor; some victims could have lived with better and proactive medical attention.
5) The events did not happen in isolation. Crushes had happened before, and the Bradford Fire a few years earlier (watch the Youtube video of the live coverage of that game - it is graphic and shocking) further highlighted poor stadium design and maintenance.
6) The events occurred at the end of Thatcherism and coincided with the general dehumanisation of football fans by her governments, to be treated as cattle. An additional factor is the economic decline of Liverpool during those years, resulting in the city feeling forsaken by Westminster.

To reiterate: Hillsborough was a complete abomination. 96 people died, including children, because they went to watch a football game. Responsibility is shared between the police, ambulance staff, Sheffield Wednesday football club and the FA. The fans do not bear any responsibility for their deaths.

Even following the inquest, which was very well covered in the news, people continue to imply the fans share some responsibility for the disaster.

They do not.

 

[The_Train]

A very good summary @AlterEgo.

I watched the Bradford fire video once and I will not be making the same mistake again. A truly horrific thing to watch

 

[CC 72100]

I've not had the privilege of visiting many larger stadia as my time following football was spent at lower league grounds. Is this divide all the way down the stands then or inside the concourse where blocks are divided? I'm quite surprised to hear that a ground such as Old Trafford has such a feature to be honest.

Old Trafford doesn't have pens. It has separate entrance outside the stadium which roughly correspond to the entrance then used from the concourse to the seats.

In most cases the concourse runs the length of the stand (South & North stand are definitely like this), and even if it is segregated in pens in the concourse, once you get out in to the stadium seating area you could walk across to adjacent blocks.

The newer quadrants (around 10 years old) may give the impression of being like pens, but they are just seating blocks that are not level with what is either side of them, so become self-contained areas by default.

I've been to OT ~20 times in the last 10 years, and been everywhere with the exception of the West Stand (Stretford End)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's any help, I was in an area which was very close to the entrance to the railway station. I could see no access to the concourse nor to other seating blocks.

 

[DarloRich]

OP - read the inquest (singular - there has been only one, contrary to your belief).

For some additional colour as to why the Hillsborough disaster is so sensitive:

1) Hillsborough is an A-Grade atrocity, an era-defining blot on our country.
2) The fans, both surviving victims and the deceased, were blamed for their own deaths by sections of the media and the police. The fans were categorically not at fault for their deaths nor was their behaviour a factor in the events that unfolded.
3) The events occurred following 10-15 years of serious football hooliganism. Hooligans had always been a minority, but stadium design (eg: pens with fences built to prevent escape onto the pitch) was very much in keeping with the idea that hooligans should be contained. None of the deceased were football hooligans. The selection of, and design of, Hillsborough were significant contributory causes to the disaster.
4) Emergency response was poor; some victims could have lived with better and proactive medical attention.
5) The events did not happen in isolation. Crushes had happened before, and the Bradford Fire a few years earlier (watch the Youtube video of the live coverage of that game - it is graphic and shocking) further highlighted poor stadium design and maintenance.
6) The events occurred at the end of Thatcherism and coincided with the general dehumanisation of football fans by her governments, to be treated as cattle. An additional factor is the economic decline of Liverpool during those years, resulting in the city feeling forsaken by Westminster.

To reiterate: Hillsborough was a complete abomination. 96 people died, including children, because they went to watch a football game. Responsibility is shared between the police, ambulance staff, Sheffield Wednesday football club and the FA. The fans do not bear any responsibility for their deaths.

Even following the inquest, which was very well covered in the news, people continue to imply the fans share some responsibility for the disaster.

They do not.

Accurate and much more polite than I am prepared to be.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

I believe that similar incidents of fans being crushed were narrowly averted in previous semi finals at that venue. Spurs v Wolves was one incidence, I think. This should comprehensively remove any culpability of fans in the tragedy. The stand was simply not fit for purpose, for such high profile games. The FA, the club, the police and safety inspectors are tasked with keeping fans safe. The blame lies at their door.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I don't understand why some people of Liverpool refuse to sell/buy The Sun. I get they printed headlines suggesting it was the fans fault, but even now, after all these years, I don't really understand why some people still hold a grudge?
I get those who were affected but I wonder if there are people who wern't affected who still "don't like" the police or shops that don't stock The Sun. Do these people hold a grudge over German people for the war? Probably not. Because they didn't live through it. So I guess I'm trying to understand people and why you would hold a grudge over one thing, but not over another?

The difference here is that the people who we went to war with in Germany are either dead or close to it, and as such are completely powerless. Since the war, Germany has tried to forget about the past atrocities and don't really take pride in what Hitler did. No reason to hold a grudge against people who had nothing to do with and have no desires to carry on their legacy. On the other hand, The Sun not only lied about the fans and accused them of urinating on dead bodies and stealing from their pockets, but they haven't changed a bit since then. The Sun, despite being the most sold paper in the UK, still has a reputation for lacking any regard to the truth and will not hesitate to print stories in favour of the agendas they hold. Every reason to hold a grudge against people who have not changed at all in the past thirty years. It's funny cause much as I don't take interest in football I once knew a survivor of Hillsborough.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have always distinguished between the actual tragic disaster and the subsequent events.

The cover up & deflection of blame to spectators were disgusting, and anyone convicted of falsifying evidence deserves serious punishment.

But the actual event seems to have been caused by a tragic misjudgement, rather than a deliberate attempt to hurt anyone, and I do wonder if seeking to punish people for misjudgements is a call or justice, or for revenge. It will do nothing to stop future errors of judgement that might have equally tragic consequences. What would you have done in similar circumstances ? With a few seconds to consider actions, would you be certain that you would always make the correct decision ??

As Bletchleyite comments, large crowds (& queues) almost develop a sort of "life" of their own; you get propelled forward by impatient people arriving behind you, and there is often no way to "escape" the forward motion.

And just a point to ponder -- we have no way of knowing what might have happened if "that gate" had not been opened.... Could the crush have dispersed safely, or might it have transferred to a different location ?????

 

[furnessvale]

And just a point to ponder -- we have no way of knowing what might have happened if "that gate" had not been opened.... Could the crush have dispersed safely, or might it have transferred to a different location ?????

I strongly suspect, and always have done, that if those gates had not been opened, Supt Dukenfield would have faced manslaughter charges for the deaths OUTSIDE the ground because he refused to open those gates.

 

[DarloRich]

But the actual event seems to have been caused by a tragic misjudgement, rather than a deliberate attempt to hurt anyone, and I do wonder if seeking to punish people for misjudgements is a call or justice, or for revenge. It will do nothing to stop future errors of judgement that might have equally tragic consequences. What would you have done in similar circumstances ? With a few seconds to consider actions, would you be certain that you would always make the correct decision ??

it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence of the highest order. Why do you seek to dismiss that? As for the match commander - In that position you are paid to know what to do. In that position you are paid to be certain. You are paid to get it right, every time because you hold the safety of the public in your hands. That is the responsibility of rank or position.

As an aside PLEASE do go and look at what actually happened, not just at 15:00 but in the build up. All the information is readily available.

I strongly suspect, and always have done, that if those gates had not been opened, Supt Dukenfield would have faced manslaughter charges for the deaths OUTSIDE the ground because he refused to open those gates.

And the response would still be the same.

I believe that similar incidents of fans being crushed were narrowly averted in previous semi finals at that venue. Spurs v Wolves was one incidence, I think. This should comprehensively remove any culpability of fans in the tragedy. The stand was simply not fit for purpose, for such high profile games. The FA, the club, the police and safety inspectors are tasked with keeping fans safe. The blame lies at their door.

Correct. It happened many, many times before at big games and everyone got away with it. Just. They didn't at Hillsborough.

 

[Bevan Price]

it wasn't an accident. It was gross negligence of the highest order. Why do you seek to dismiss that? As for the match commander - In that position you are paid to know what to do. In that position you are paid to be certain. You are paid to get it right, every time because you hold the safety of the public in your hands. That is the responsibility of rank or position.

As an aside PLEASE do go and look at what actually happened, not just at 15:00 but in the build up. All the information is readily available.

.

I have seen the info. - several times, but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on our personal judgements.

 

[DarloRich]

I have seen the info. - several times, but I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on our personal judgements.

You are welcome to think that but you are wrong. Sorry to be blunt.

 

[kevconnor]

I would please urge legal caution with some postings.

Follow the enquiries and coroner's enquiry CPS has decided to charge certain individuals.

One of which, whose name escapes me, is an official from Sheffield Wednesday with a breach under Health and Safety relating to stadium safety certificate.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have always distinguished between the actual tragic disaster and the subsequent events.

The cover up & deflection of blame to spectators were disgusting, and anyone convicted of falsifying evidence deserves serious punishment.

But the actual event seems to have been caused by a tragic misjudgement, rather than a deliberate attempt to hurt anyone, and I do wonder if seeking to punish people for misjudgements is a call or justice, or for revenge. It will do nothing to stop future errors of judgement that might have equally tragic consequences. What would you have done in similar circumstances ? With a few seconds to consider actions, would you be certain that you would always make the correct decision ??

As Bletchleyite comments, large crowds (& queues) almost develop a sort of "life" of their own; you get propelled forward by impatient people arriving behind you, and there is often no way to "escape" the forward motion.

And just a point to ponder -- we have no way of knowing what might have happened if "that gate" had not been opened.... Could the crush have dispersed safely, or might it have transferred to a different location ?????

The crush was caused because the fans entered through a narrow gap. The “terrain” in front of them was a roughly 45 degree slope. It wasn’t just pushing forward that caused the crush, it was gravity.

It is extremely unlikely that anyone would have died outside the ground, although the crowds were very intense and there was a likelihood of minor injuries. This is because there was a road for people to disperse onto if they became distressed or panicked.