Historic passenger train lengths in the UK

[BRX]

The Caledonian Sleeper with 16 coaches is the longest domestic service in the UK now. Some discussion on the CS thread highlighted that few stations can actually accommodate it on one platform.

But the fact that some stations (including stations off the current regular sleeper route) can accommodate such a train must mean that in the past there were trains of similar length or longer.

Was it at one time much more common to have trains that long, and did we in the past operate even longer ones?

 

[ExRes]

The Caledonian Sleeper with 16 coaches is the longest domestic service in the UK now. Some discussion on the CS thread highlighted that few stations can actually accommodate it on one platform.

But the fact that some stations (including stations off the current regular sleeper route) can accommodate such a train must mean that in the past there were trains of similar length or longer.

Was it at one time much more common to have trains that long, and did we in the past operate even longer ones?

I'm unaware of the stations that have longer than normal platforms but I'm wondering if they were particularly busy stations where more than one train could be platformed at the same time, from experience I know there was one at Reading where I was called on with a mail train while a loco hauled Cross Country was already in residence

 

[BRX]

I'm unaware of the stations that have longer than normal platforms but I'm wondering if they were particularly busy stations where more than one train could be platformed at the same time, from experience I know there was one at Reading where I was called on with a mail train while a loco hauled Cross Country was already in residence

Certainly that's the case at Edinburgh which has some very long through platforms.

 

[Magdalia]

In days gone by, before track circuits, going beyond the starting signal, and drawing up, were common practice, so platform lengths were not a constraint except at termini.

The WCML overnight trains have been load 16 for as long as I can remember, the ECML also ran some very long overnight trains. But I don't remember daytime trains going beyond about 13 or 14 coaches.

Wartime had its own rules with trains in excess of 20 coaches.

ps does Eurostar count!?

 

[pdeaves]

In the early days of railways, when 'they' thought nothing of having people walk down the track to board/alight, there were some really, really long trains. I'm pretty sure I read recently of 54 [1] carriages and multiple locomotives on some railway company-run special. Obviously, carriages were shorter then, but that would still have been a monster length.

[1] if it wasn't 54, it was still definitely a really big number compared to what we're used to today.

 

[StephenHunter]

Night Ferry could easily be Load 16 or 17, albeit with shorter carriages.

 

[Rescars]

Certainly that's the case at Edinburgh which has some very long through platforms.

There was once a monster single platform which joined Manchester Victoria and Manchester Exchange, and claimed to be the longest in Europe. Not intended for use by a single giant train though.

 

[d9009alycidon]

The 16 coach mark 5 formations are equivalent to 20 x 57ft LMS coaches or 18 BR mark 1s. In the 1960s there were 17/18 coach sleepers, the overnight from Inverness to Euston in 1960 is a good example, it left Inverness with 11 coaches, 3 more were added at Aviemore and a further 2 BGs added at Perth and 1 at Stirling making 17.

 

[Irascible]

The Caledonian Sleeper with 16 coaches is the longest domestic service in the UK now. Some discussion on the CS thread highlighted that few stations can actually accommodate it on one platform.

But the fact that some stations (including stations off the current regular sleeper route) can accommodate such a train must mean that in the past there were trains of similar length or longer.

Was it at one time much more common to have trains that long, and did we in the past operate even longer ones?

There are places with long platforms that were built to allow two trains to use them, like Exeter Central. If you go back to pre-grouping days trains were generally short, only a handful of carriages ( as usual there were outliers ).

 

[The exile]

Fairly sure that before the days of half it serving Poole the West Country - Scotland sleeper used to take up the length of pl3&4 at Temple Meads

 

[Ken H]

Some very long platforms in the west country. Look at Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Rd. What stopped there?

 

[6Gman]

The Caledonian Sleeper with 16 coaches is the longest domestic service in the UK now. Some discussion on the CS thread highlighted that few stations can actually accommodate it on one platform.

But the fact that some stations (including stations off the current regular sleeper route) can accommodate such a train must mean that in the past there were trains of similar length or longer.

Was it at one time much more common to have trains that long, and did we in the past operate even longer ones?

In 1956 the longest scheduled trains out of Euston seem to have been:

1810 Liverpool, 2050 Holyhead - 16
0830 Liverpool, 1040 Carlisle, 1145 Manchester, 1445 Manchester, 1705 Blackpool, 2305 Windermere - 15

 

[30907]

By the mid-70s the longest daytime trains were out of Euston and were timed E455 meaning max 13 mk1/2s, and from memory they mostly were (including twin restaurant and BG).
I don't remember more than 11 out of any other London terminus or on Cross-country.
The SR and BR(S) of course ran 12-car EMUs (14 on short sea boat trains) - Waterloo could manage a 13-coach train (with the instruction for the empties "tank engine to be provided") but there were only 3 or so daily departures that length except on summer Saturdays.

 

[Beebman]

I don't remember more than 11 out of any other London terminus or on Cross-country.

In the mid-80s there was a 18:13 loco-hauled from Paddington (I think to Oxford) which I used on my homeward commute to Twyford that had 12 coaches.

 

[30907]

In the mid-80s there was a 18:13 loco-hauled from Paddington (I think to Oxford) which I used on my homeward commute to Twyford that had 12 coaches.

I should have remembered its mid 70s predecessor, as I occasionally watched the evening peak arrivals at Oxford, each of which was formed differently but one was certainly 12!

 

[Magdalia]

I don't remember more than 11 out of any other London terminus or on Cross-country.

In 1981 1806 Paddington to Oxford was load 13 and the 1730 to Banbury was load 12.

In the same year the Edinburgh-Plymouth and Leeds-Paignton in each direction were load 12.

In 1984 the Aberdeen-Kings Cross sleeper was load 13.

In 1987 the Yarmouth-Newcastle in each direction, and the 1039 Birmingham-Yarmouth for 1600 back, were all load 12.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In 1981 1806 Paddington to Oxford was load 13 and the 1730 to Banbury was load 12.

In the same year the Edinburgh-Plymouth and Leeds-Paignton in each direction were load 12.

In 1984 the Aberdeen-Kings Cross sleeper was load 13.

In 1987 the Yarmouth-Newcastle in each direction, and the 1039 Birmingham-Yarmouth for 1600 back, were all load 12.

As noted above in the 70s some of the daytime trains out of Euston were load 12 or in some cases 13 but some of the overnight trains were longer loading 14, 15 and an odd one or two with 16, with some overnights out of Kings Cross load 14.

Fairly sure that before the days of half it serving Poole the West Country - Scotland sleeper used to take up the length of pl3&4 at Temple Meads

When running from/to Bristol in the mid/late 70s that was load 16 - nine Glasgow and seven Edinburgh.

 

[Helvellyn]

By the mid-70s the longest daytime trains were out of Euston and were timed E455 meaning max 13 mk1/2s, and from memory they mostly were (including twin restaurant and BG).
I don't remember more than 11 out of any other London terminus or on Cross-country.

Some of "Scot" CrossCountry services were load 13 in the mid-1980s. The front cover of the 1988 Platform 5 combined edition has a picture of 50008 hauling the Cornish Scot formed BG-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-BFK-TSO-TSO-BG from 1986 on the front cover.

The four Manchester Pullman "Super Pullman" formations of the very late 1980s/early 1990s were load 12 (and all Mark 3s), being DVT-FO-RFM-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO. In the same time period there were also some load 13 sets (DVT-FO-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO) for the Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton services, although only the DVT and RFM were Mark 3, the rest being Mark 2Fs, so the Manchester Pullman sets were longer in measured length by virtue of being formed fully of the longer coaches.

 

[Dave W]

In the early days of railways, when 'they' thought nothing of having people walk down the track to board/alight, there were some really, really long trains. I'm pretty sure I read recently of 54 [1] carriages and multiple locomotives on some railway company-run special. Obviously, carriages were shorter then, but that would still have been a monster length.

[1] if it wasn't 54, it was still definitely a really big number compared to what we're used to today.

34 carriages and two vans on the ill fated round trip to Worcester in 1858. More were added for the return journey (42 total) but the train was split into two, setting the stage for “decidedly the worst railway accident that has ever occurred in this country“ at Round Oak.

I can’t speak for their length compared to modern stock, but there were 1500 people on the outbound train.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are places with long platforms that were built to allow two trains to use them, like Exeter Central. If you go back to pre-grouping days trains were generally short, only a handful of carriages ( as usual there were outliers ).

I always presumed that stations with massively long platforms were mostly for end-to-end trains on the same platform, not for a very long train - in some cases because there was only one main platform to use.

Wasn't Cambridge like that years back? And Gloucester? And Bournemouth?

 

[India Four Two]

Never having heard of it, I had to look up the Round Oak accident:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_Oak_rail_accident

 

[Ken H]

What about the motorail service when they pit the car cariers on the back of a normal train? Towards the end of motorail. West coast. Was in the days of DVTs and cl 86/87

 

[Diplodicus]

I remember travelling Euston to Keswick (steam hauled) in the early sixties. The long, long train stopped at Lancaster first for the front portion and then moved forward to enable those in the rear portion to alight.

 

[Ken H]

I remember travelling Euston to Keswick (steam hauled) in the early sixties. The long, long train stopped at Lancaster first for the front portion and then moved forward to enable those in the rear portion to alight.

That used to happen at settle. The station man would manage it with hand signals. Revolving arm for draw forward, both arms raised to stop. But he would tell the guard when station work done and he would self despatch with his green flag or bardic lamp.

 

[Dave W]

Never having heard of it, I had to look up the Round Oak accident

Yes apologies, perhaps I might have added a bit more info - although I wasn’t being deliberately obtuse! There used to exist a website somewhere that had scans of newspaper clippings. That section was my local bit of railway where I grew up.

The Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton was nicknamed the Old Worse and Worse, such was its poor reputation.

That notwithstanding, I don’t think they were unique in running very long passenger trains.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Also worth a mention from the 1970s:
The overnight Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness - load 15 between Perth and Inverness
16.30 Sundays Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh, for many years the only daytime train from Inverness to these cities, also load 15 Inverness to Perth

 

[deltic]

In the 1980s trains with more than 12 coaches included

10.20 Euston- Stranraer/Carlisle - 13
22.40 Euston - Stirling/Perth/Glasgow -13
23.30 Euston - Glasgow - 13

In the 1970s they included

07.08 SO Bradford/Sheffield - Plymouth/Penzance - 13
21.00 Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh - 14
21.20 Newcastle/Sheffield - Newquay/Newton Abbot - 15
00.50 Paddington - Milford Haven - 14
17.42 Paddington - Oxford - 13
23.35 FO Paddington - Penzance - 13

18.30 Aberystwyth - York - 13 from Stockport
13.51 Barrow - Euston - 14 MO from Preston
09.45 & 18.45 Birmingham - Euston - 13
23.20 Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh - 14
19.25 Bristol - Newcastle - 14 MX from Birmingham
01.45 Crewe-Cardiff - 14 ThO
00.15 Euston - Crewe - 15 from Stafford
08.05 Euston - Manchester - 13
08.30 Euston - Liverpool - 13
15.35 Euston - Holyhead - 14SO from Crewe
20.20 Euston - Inverness - 14
21.05 SO Euston - Glasgow - 16
22.15 Euston - Glasgow - 15
22.20 SO Manchester Vic - Holyhead - 15


Motorail services were far longer

Eg 07.45 Kensington Olympia - St Austell - 7 coaches plus 11 carflats
07.50 Paddington - Fishguard 9 coaches plus 6 GUV

 

[Ken H]

In the 1980s trains with more than 12 coaches included

10.20 Euston- Stranraer/Carlisle - 13
22.40 Euston - Stirling/Perth/Glasgow -13
23.30 Euston - Glasgow - 13

In the 1970s they included

07.08 SO Bradford/Sheffield - Plymouth/Penzance - 13
21.00 Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh - 14
21.20 Newcastle/Sheffield - Newquay/Newton Abbot - 15
00.50 Paddington - Milford Haven - 14
17.42 Paddington - Oxford - 13
23.35 FO Paddington - Penzance - 13

18.30 Aberystwyth - York - 13 from Stockport
13.51 Barrow - Euston - 14 MO from Preston
09.45 & 18.45 Birmingham - Euston - 13
23.20 Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh - 14
19.25 Bristol - Newcastle - 14 MX from Birmingham
01.45 Crewe-Cardiff - 14 ThO
00.15 Euston - Crewe - 15 from Stafford
08.05 Euston - Manchester - 13
08.30 Euston - Liverpool - 13
15.35 Euston - Holyhead - 14SO from Crewe
20.20 Euston - Inverness - 14
21.05 SO Euston - Glasgow - 16
22.15 Euston - Glasgow - 15
22.20 SO Manchester Vic - Holyhead - 15


Motorail services were far longer

Eg 07.45 Kensington Olympia - St Austell - 7 coaches plus 11 carflats
07.50 Paddington - Fishguard 9 coaches plus 6 GUV

Motorail services were long. The package was car, a reserved compartment for the passengers and tray meals. So lots of corridor coaches. And some long slow journies. Then they changed it. The peopll went on normal inter city trains and the cars went on a separate train. Or dragged behind the IC service on the rst coast. Were the motorail vans 100mph capable? Maybe we need a motorail thread?

 

[randyrippley]

I can remember being on Dawlish sea wall in the early 1970s, summer, with Peaks on the NE-SW route, virtually every one hauling 14/15.
Many seemingly with extra coaches added to make up the numbers, some still in red and in a heck of a state with cracked windows and flapping roof felt. I suspect numbers diagrammed was different from numbers actually used

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

In the early days of railways, when 'they' thought nothing of having people walk down the track to board/alight, there were some really, really long trains. I'm pretty sure I read recently of 54 [1] carriages and multiple locomotives on some railway company-run special. Obviously, carriages were shorter then, but that would still have been a monster length.

[1] if it wasn't 54, it was still definitely a really big number compared to what we're used to today.

There's the famous example from Foxwell's Express Trains English and Foreign of the 07:50 Perth-Inverness train on August 7, 1888 (i.e. approaching the Glorious Twelfth), which had 36 vehicles (albeit plenty of them horseboxes, vans or carriage trucks, presumably four-wheeled) from nine companies, with two engines on the front and a third banking from Blair Athol ("Left Perth 20 minutes late. Left Kingussie 72 minutes late.") - see this link:

https://archive.org/details/expresstrainsen00foxwgoog/page/n72/mode/2up?view=theater

(It gets cited a lot in other works - in fact, the archive.org link comes courtesy of a mention in the Wikipedia article on the Highland, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway - and I'm pretty sure it's been discussed in these parts before.)