Historical Birmingham-Norwich direct services?

[TheWalrus]

I have been reading a book about 158s and there’s several mentions of class 158s running services from Norwich to Birmingham. I didn’t realise there ever were direct services between the two cities, is anyone on here able to shed any light on frequency, calling patterns, routing, or even any old timetables for this service?
Many thanks in advance

 

[newtownmgr]

The service ran for years. Formed of at various times DMU’s, 31 & stock & then 156 before 158’s. Used to be 2 hourly i think. Service stopped when they diverted the trains to Cambridge & Stansted Airport in the early 90’s i think.

 

[MadMac]

The service was sometimes worked by Cravens DMUs! https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/8487

 

[eastwestdivide]

Old thread on the subject here:

1980s loco-hauled Birmingham to Norwich

Hi all, I'm currently researching a feature for my website www.railscenetoday.com about the 80s loco hauled services (mostly Class 31s) from Birmingham New Street to Norwich and wondered whether anyone had any memories of those services. I didn't make notes at the time but travelled part of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[SteveM70]

The linked thread is excellent and brings back a lot of memories for me of travelling from the midlands to east anglia in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Sometimes from Birmingham, sometimes from Nuneaton, occasionally from Hinckley. Oddly enough I was discussing these trips with my dad only last weekend.

As others said, progress was often sedate at best, and timekeeping wasn’t great either, partly because of the number of flat junctions with main lines, partly because back then connections were often held, especially on secondary services, and partly because the 31s weren’t the greatest, although that improved with the 31/4s.

One thing my dad mentioned, which I didn’t see in the original thread, was that he understood that up until privatisation there was some sort of agreement whereby “midland men” didn’t go east of the ECML. No idea if it’s true but the Saltley driver mentions route learning to March in the 90s so it could be

The best thing of all in the 70s was doing the trip in the winter with a goyle that was properly steaming and getting a mk1 compartment in the first carriage and cranking the heat up. Beautiful

 

[Magdalia]

There is an irony that the history of the East Anglia-West Midlands service is being discussed at the same time as threads elsewhere on through cross country services and the general disincentive that changing trains has on whether people choose to travel by rail.

Historically the East Anglia-West Midlands service was always one of the two most important cross country routes in and out of East Anglia, and privatisation frittered a lot of that traffic away by failing to provide through trains between Norwich and Leicester/Birmingham. For me, the reinstatement of a through service between Norwich and Birmingham is a litmus test of whether the railway can climb out of the hole it has dug itself into.

Historically there were two competing routes between East Anglia and the West Midlands. The Midland and Great Northern had a daily service via their Joint Line from Lowestoft and Yarmouth to Birmingham via Melton Constable, Bourne and Leicester. This also conveyed portions for Norwich and Cromer. The Great Eastern and London and North Western had a competing service via Norwich, Peterborough East and Rugby, with separate Yarmouth and Lowestoft portions joining and dividing at Reedham. The GE/LNW trains were an out and back working with a buffet car.

The MGN Joint Line service died when the line was closed in 1959, then the line from Peterborough East to Rugby was also closed in 1966. After the latter closure the Yarmouth-Birmingham and return loco hauled service continued until 1970 but going via Peterborough North and Leicester. The through workings were disrupted for a while in the early 1970s during the Peterborough remodelling, but when this was finished in 1973 the service gradually evolved into the 5 each way service that reintroduced loco hauled trains in 1977. The loco hauled trains were replaced by Sprinters in 1988 but there were still 5 trains a day until 1994 when the Norwich-Liverpool and Stansted-Birmingham separation was implemented to allow the services to be put into different franchises.

 

[tbtc]

there were still 5 trains a day until 1994 when the Norwich-Liverpool and Stansted-Birmingham separation was implemented to allow the services to be put into different franchises

My memory was that there were still some (Liverpool) Birmingham - Norwich services and some (Liverpool) Nottingham - Cambridge (Stansted) services around the millennium (I can’t remember when Ipswich lost it’s through trains to the Midlands though)

Both routes were part of Central Trains (RIP 2007), so there’d have been no need to split them up back in 1994

Over time it became more efficient to focus services on certain pairs of destinations and the current pattern became the norm (similar to TPE and XC simplifying their service patterns)

That meant an hourly service from Norwich to Peterborough/ ECML and the same from Cambridge (meaning a relatively balanced service west of Ely) which was presumably more useful to some than two Norwich trains in quick succession and a big gap in Cambridge services (or vice versa)

AIUI in those days there was no “Local” Norwich to Cambridge service, so the long distance trains had a bigger impact on local journeys than might be the case now

 

[Magdalia]

My memory was that there were still some (Liverpool) Birmingham - Norwich services and some (Liverpool) Nottingham - Cambridge (Stansted) services around the millennium

I did check in my timetable library before I wrote 1994.

(I can’t remember when Ipswich lost it’s through trains to the Midlands though)

My timetable library says 1991.

AIUI in those days there was no “Local” Norwich to Cambridge service

These also finished in 1994. Towards the end it was a very sparse service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Certainly my daily train home from Birmingham to Leicester in the early 90s was a 158 to Norwich.

 

[TheBigD]

Most of through services were discontinued in May 1994. Peterborough Regional Railways traincrew depot closed at the same time.

There were a couple of through Norwich-Birmingham services that survived through to the Central Trains days in the mid 2000s.
0610ish ex Norwich, 0815 ex Norwich, 1240ish ex Norwich, 0820ish ex Birmingham (split from a Stansted at Ely), 1609 ex Birmingham. Norwich crews signed as far as Leicester and worked them except the 0815 ex Norwich which was a Cambridge crew.

The remaining services were finally withdrawn around 2005/6 if my memory is correct.

 

[greyman42]

The best thing of all in the 70s was doing the trip in the winter with a goyle that was properly steaming and getting a mk1 compartment in the first carriage and cranking the heat up. Beautiful

Yea brilliant. Nowadays people would moan about it being too hot!

 

[nw1]

I remember the old-school version of these as by luck, the 0805 Portsmouth-Manchester XC I was travelling on in February 1984 was on an adjacent platform at New Street to a Norwich arrival, with a 31 and Mk-II stock. This would have been around 1130 to 1200. The 31 came off (like the 47 on mine) and I assumed (wrongly) that it was going forward to Manchester or Liverpool with an electric loco on the front, like my own train - though it was actually terminating.

 

[Magdalia]

I remember the old-school version of these as by luck, the 0805 Portsmouth-Manchester XC I was travelling on in February 1984 was on an adjacent platform at New Street to a Norwich arrival, with a 31 and Mk-II stock. This would have been around 1130 to 1200. The 31 came off (like the 47 on mine) and I assumed (wrongly) that it was going forward to Manchester or Liverpool with an electric loco on the front, like my own train - though it was actually terminating.

That would be the 0740 from Norwich arriving at 1136.

In 1983/84 that was still going back at 1315, but with ETH there was no need for a loco change. Am I remembering rightly that, after running round, there was a "round the houses" ecs move to avoid blocking a platform at New Street?

 

[nw1]

That would be the 0740 from Norwich arriving at 1136.

In 1983/84 that was still going back at 1315, but with ETH there was no need for a loco change. Am I remembering rightly that, after running round, there was a "round the houses" ecs move to avoid blocking a platform at New Street?

I'm not sure, I only saw it come in, and the loco coming off - as my train was due out of New Street at 1155.

Interesting that it took longer to get from Norwich to Birmingham than Portsmouth-Birmingham (0805-1140) !

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The service ran for years. Formed of at various times DMU’s, 31 & stock & then 156 before 158’s. Used to be 2 hourly i think. Service stopped when they diverted the trains to Cambridge & Stansted Airport in the early 90’s i think.

My memory too. I took class 31s numerous times but I usually got on at Nuneaton after getting the train from Preston to Nuneaton first.

 

[Pigeon]

In 1983/84 that was still going back at 1315, but with ETH there was no need for a loco change. Am I remembering rightly that, after running round, there was a "round the houses" ecs move to avoid blocking a platform at New Street?

They still do that a bit; there are still traces at the track-layout level of the station's history as two separate stations side by side, especially at the western end where the two routes diverge immediately and there isn't much space between the platform ends and the tunnel mouths, so some trains arriving from the north-west into the north side of the station which are going to form a service heading off to Bristol will do a circuit via Camp Hill, the Lifford curve and the BWS to get into their departure platform on the south side. There's also a potential northabout circuit via Aston which I think they do or did use once in a while.

I don't remember them doing it as being something to do with the services towards Norwich, though, nor do I recall any obvious reason why they should need it. I'd hardly cite this as much of a definite memory though.

 

[Magdalia]

When the Norwich-Birmingham loco hauled service restarted in 1977 the trains were steam heat and my recollection is that there were ecs moves out and back to/from carriage sidings at Duddeston. The loco also had to fill up with boiler water somewhere. I can't remember which way round the loop the ecs moves used to run.

The locos went ETH in October 1982 but I can't remember if Duddeston closed before that. After October 1982 the only Birmingham turn round that went to carriage sidings was the 0935 from Norwich going back on the 1818, and that went ecs to Oxley.

For the Norwich trains, these ecs moves involved crossing between the ex Midland and ex LNW parts of the station. I don't remember them doing circuits via Lifford.

Two groups of trains that I do remember going "round the houses" were the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Birmingham trains and some Paddington-Birmingham trains.

 

[ecmlthrash15]

We don’t know how lucky we are today with the frequent services from Norwich/Cambridge to Birmingham. I would choose the 158s any day, even though they lack the fun of class 31 hauled. Early 80s timetable from Stamford to Peterborough and Cambridge was pretty infrequent. Also, passengers for Stamford ought to join the front 3 coaches, that’s if you don’t want to stop in Stamford tunnel.

 

[30907]

Early 80s timetable from Stamford to Peterborough and Cambridge was pretty infrequent.

Indeed. Back then I was the BR voluntary rep at a Cambridge theological college (aka vicar school), and I would frequently be asked for morning trains to various places north of Watford where jobs were on offer. Unless it was a "via London", it was almost inevitably the 0810ish Cambridge-Peterborough "and change" onto an ECML or the 0740 Norwich-Brum. There was one through DMU Cambridge-Birmingham around 0900 but that was it.

 

[ecmlthrash15]

I'm not sure, I only saw it come in, and the loco coming off - as my train was due out of New Street at 1155.

Interesting that it took longer to get from Norwich to Birmingham than Portsmouth-Birmingham (0805-1140) !

Norwich to Birmingham is 176 miles. Do you know the distance from Portsmouth?

 

[hexagon789]

Norwich to Birmingham is 176 miles. Do you know the distance from Portsmouth?

I make it 155 1/2

 

[nw1]

Norwich to Birmingham is 176 miles. Do you know the distance from Portsmouth?

I see @hexagon789 has answered that but surprised it's that far, by rail, from Norwich to Birmingham. I'd have guessed about 100. I will admit that my knowledge of East Anglia is significantly less than other English regions though: I've been to Cambridge twice (by rail, from London), Colchester once (rail out from Liverpool Street, car back) and up and down the ECML about three times, and that's it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I see @hexagon789 has answered that but surprised it's that far, by rail, from Norwich to Birmingham. I'd have guessed about 100.

Its 135m in a straight line, and the route weaves to Ely, March, Peterborough, up to Melton Mowbray back down to Leicester Before heading off to Brum.

Imagine what it was like driving it before the A14 opened - it was a 4 hour+ job.

 

[Magdalia]

I see @hexagon789 has answered that but surprised it's that far, by rail, from Norwich to Birmingham. I'd have guessed about 100. I will admit that my knowledge of East Anglia is significantly less than other English regions

East Anglia is a big place. Furthermore, the railway lines meander about a bit in order to serve the main centres of population.

By rail Norwich is about the same distance from London as Birmingham or Bristol at around 115 miles.

Peterborough is more than 80 miles from both Norwich and Ipswich by rail.

Peterborough, up to Melton Mowbray back down to Leicester

And this bit is notoriously indirect. Peterborough-Leicester is about 40 miles by road but 52 miles by rail.

The old LNWR route from Peterborough to Birmingham via Rugby was about 10 miles shorter than the current route via Leicester.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It is interesting that today that the principal x-country route into Norwich is from the North West rather than from the West Midlands. Back in the '70s the only sensible option from Manchester to Norwich was the one morning Euston service which called at Nuneaton and made a snappy connection with the B'ham to Norwich DMU. You could also take the afternoon Harwich Boat Train changing at Peterborough or March, but with a rather late arrival into Norwich.

 

[nw1]

East Anglia is a big place. Furthermore, the railway lines meander about a bit in order to serve the main centres of population.

By rail Norwich is about the same distance from London as Birmingham or Bristol at around 115 miles.

Peterborough is more than 80 miles from both Norwich and Ipswich by rail.

Interesting - that's I think where I got my distance estimate wrong. Didn't realise it was that far from Peterborough to Norwich.

Its 135m in a straight line, and the route weaves to Ely, March, Peterborough, up to Melton Mowbray back down to Leicester Before heading off to Brum.

Again much further than I thought, I'd have guessed the straight-line distance was perhaps around 90m. East Anglia is indeed much bigger than you might think.

 

[Bald Rick]

East Anglia is indeed much bigger than you might think.

It’s because it takes so long to get through the decades…

 

[ecmlthrash15]

Norwich to Ely is 53 3/4 miles.
Ely to Leicester is 82 1/2 miles.

Its 135m in a straight line, and the route weaves to Ely, March, Peterborough, up to Melton Mowbray back down to Leicester Before heading off to Brum.

Imagine what it was like driving it before the A14 opened - it was a 4 hour+ job.

Its 135m in a straight line, and the route weaves to Ely, March, Peterborough, up to Melton Mowbray back down to Leicester Before heading off to Brum.

Imagine what it was like driving it before the A14 opened - it was a 4 hour+ job.

I got the 176 miles from the book Britain by train by Patrick goldring. This is via the Ely loop.

 

[01d-and]

We used this service from Birmingham on a number of occasions to get to Peterborough for the last few years of the Deltics on the ECML. By around 3pm it was decision time. Stay supping fizzy beer in the station buffet on the island platform or pop over to March shed.