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Historical Data: Planned Passenger Trains Before 1997-8

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mesub

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Hi guys,

I'm looking for data on planned passenger trains before 1997-8 as part of my EPQ on public transport in the UK. By planned passenger trains, I mean the number of trains that were scheduled to run (or something similar to that). I've tried checking the ORR's (Office of Rail and Road) as well as Network Rail's website. I've also sent FOI (Freedom of Information) requests to them to see if they have it. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have it (ORR redirected me to Network Rail, who in turn said their records only go back to 2004 and redirected me to the now-defunct Strategic Rail Authority).

Does anybody know where I could source the data?
 
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Dr Hoo

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Welcome to the Forums.

Could you be a bit more specific, e.g. 'weekday', Saturday, Sunday, per year?

What is an EPQ, please, to give some context about academic level, accuracy and so on?
 

SuperLuke2334

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Welcome to the Forums.

Could you be a bit more specific, e.g. 'weekday', Saturday, Sunday, per year?

What is an EPQ, please, to give some context about academic level, accuracy and so on?
EPQ is an Extended Project Qualification worth half an A-Level.
 

midland1

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Just had a quick look on ebay, you can pick up a british rail all line passenger timetable for round about 1997 for about £16. I would think this would tell you most of what you need.
 

ainsworth74

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Working Timetables from 1994 onwards are available here if that's what you're after: https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/SO_506bb63b-dadf-497e-901d-1673556bcffd

Just had a quick look on ebay, you can pick up a british rail all line passenger timetable for round about 1997 for about £16. I would think this would tell you most of what you need.
Though @mesub would have to manually count the services to get the answer that they're after which could take them some time for the entire network...
 

mesub

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Welcome to the Forums.

Could you be a bit more specific, e.g. 'weekday', Saturday, Sunday, per year?

What is an EPQ, please, to give some context about academic level, accuracy and so on?

Thank you! (A friend recommended I try here, although I have read a few threads on the BusUK side of the forum previously as a guest).

Ideally, data arranged per year would be extremely beneficial, although a per month or period (3/4 months) approach would be fine as well (since I can just use Excel to collate the numbers easily). Something like this for example (I'm really not fussed if it's split by operator or anything, I'm just after how many trains were planned to run per year with older data, maybe mid to late 1980s if possible.

As for the EPQ, as SuperLuke said, it stands for extended project qualification. It's worth around half an A-level (so level three in terms of qualifications). You pick an area of a topic you're interested in (e.g., I've picked public transport in the UK) and either write a dissertation-style essay of around 5000 words or make some sort of artefact (which also includes doing something like a play).

Could this data be found in old timetables?
Just had a quick look on ebay, you can pick up a british rail all line passenger timetable for round about 1997 for about £16. I would think this would tell you most of what you need.

Probably some of it, if there are really old timetables. It would be a lot of counting though...
 

Bevan Price

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Thank you! (A friend recommended I try here, although I have read a few threads on the BusUK side of the forum previously as a guest).

Ideally, data arranged per year would be extremely beneficial, although a per month or period (3/4 months) approach would be fine as well (since I can just use Excel to collate the numbers easily). Something like this for example (I'm really not fussed if it's split by operator or anything, I'm just after how many trains were planned to run per year with older data, maybe mid to late 1980s if possible.

As for the EPQ, as SuperLuke said, it stands for extended project qualification. It's worth around half an A-level (so level three in terms of qualifications). You pick an area of a topic you're interested in (e.g., I've picked public transport in the UK) and either write a dissertation-style essay of around 5000 words or make some sort of artefact (which also includes doing something like a play).




Probably some of it, if there are really old timetables. It would be a lot of counting though...
Just count on a sample of typical timetable pages, work out the average number of trains per page, then multiply by the total number of pages containing timetables. It won't be 100% accurate but it should be a good approximation.
(Note - be careful to omit pages that only differ in the dates on which they operate**; also treat Saturdays and Sundays separately from Monday/Friday services. )

** - In other words, if part of a timetable were to cover only June to September, do not also count those pages covering only October to December.
 

Magdalia

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I'm looking for data on planned passenger trains before 1997-8 as part of my EPQ on public transport in the UK. By planned passenger trains, I mean the number of trains that were scheduled to run (or something similar to that).
I worked with statistics all through my career, which goes back way before 1997.

The first point I'd make is that statistics are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. What is the point that you are trying to demonstrate?

It is then a case of finding statistics that are readily available that will demonstrate your point.

In 1997 the internet barely existed, so most official statistics were published in books. In those days the ONS published a big book called Annual Abstract of Statistics, using data supplied by nearly every government department. And whichever government department was responsible for transport at the time would also have had their own publications. Somewhere in those books there will be data that helps to demonstrate your story. I suggest a chat with a friendly librarian.

Obtaining a 1997 timetable, then trying to calculate a figure yourself, would be very time consuming and fraught with difficulties. You could not be confident that what you came up with was consistent with anything that Network Rail has produced since 2004, unless they shared their methodology and you were able to replicate it.
 

30907

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Your other source might be BR press releases or BR Board annual reports - and either of these might have been reported in (say) Modern Railways or the Railway Magazine. However, you might be searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack.
 

Roger1973

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There are some practicalities in the way timetables are / were presented.

You get some trains which operationally are a single journey from A to D, but may appear in public timetables as a journey from A to B, another journey from B to C, and another journey from C to D.

Depending on which public timetables are combined at any one time (it does vary) and how train operators choose to schedule trains, you could count it as one journey or three, but what's actually on offer to the public isn't much different.

Similarly, one train journey might appear in two timetables, for example on the Dartford lines out of Charing Cross, at some times the whole lot has been presented as one timetable, at other times as three for the different routes - when it has been the latter, maybe the timetable for the line via Woolwich would show all trains going as far east as Gillingham, the other lines would only show stations as far as Dartford, so a train to Gillingham via Sidcup would appear in both timetables with a note in the first to say it's via Sidcup, and in the second to say it continues to / from Gillingham.

Then there are 'circular' train journeys, again an example from from the same patch, there are trains that run from Charing Cross or Cannon Street to Barnehurst, then go 'round the corner' to Crayford and back to a London terminus. In the public timetable it's shown as a down train on the Bexleyheath line and an up train on the Sidcup line. Operationally, at some times it's been regarded as two separate journeys, either running empty or in passenger service on the connecting move. More recently it's tended to be regarded as a Cannon Street to Cannon Street journey.

Then there's branch lines that used to have through trains but now run as a shuttle - possibly the overall number of train departures per day has increased without much change to the level of service anywhere.

And what about trains that divide / attach somewhere on route, so that it's (for example) one departure from Waterloo then two departures from Woking - does that count as one, two or three train services? Or one from Waterloo, but two separate departures to Waterloo?

There must be a heck of a lot of examples like this.

I'm not sure what counting the total number of 'passenger trains' per day would prove, quite apart from the time it would take to go through a doorstep sized 'all lines' timetable to count them.

The number of departures per day from specific stations, or on specific lines, might be a useful comparison, but I can't quite see what it proves on a national basis.

I'm not sure I've seen the figure quoted until quite recently (for example South Eastern are quoting the number of services per day / week in the PR for their current timetable change.)
 

Mcr Warrior

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Might Railtrack Group plc (1994-2002) have published statistics in their annual reports at this time?
 

ainsworth74

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Might Railtrack Group plc (1994-2002) have published statistics in their annual reports at this time?
That's not a bad shout. A quick look online suggest that they've never been digistised (a least I couldn't find them) but they do appear to be housed at the NRM in York. An email to a suitable part of the NRM would no doubt confirm if they've got them or not. Though Birmingham to York is a long way to go on a hunch for the OP!
 

Mcr Warrior

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Possible that Railtrack Group plc accounts might just be available by perusing online Companies House records.
 

Dr Hoo

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Noting that 'numbers of trains' is not necessarily a very meaningful statistic (in terms of 'circular', 'linked', long v short distance trains and so on) I wonder whether Passenger Train km operated might be a more useful?

The official Transport Statistics Great Britain 1995 edition shows Passenger Train km as 350,200,000 in 1993-4. This was the last year before privatisation got under way. The following year was heavily affected by Railtrack signaller strikes. Under sectorisation in the 1980s the figure had grown from around 311,000,000 in 1985.

I am not aware of a comparable published figure for recent years, even allowing for recent covid-reduced timetables.

It is interesting that even Terry Gourvish's definitive official Business Histories of British Railways, with a wealth of statistical comparison, do not seem to include numbers of services. Neither do Transport Statistics Great Britain, at least over the 1965-1995 period.

I hope that this helps.
 

ainsworth74

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Possible that Railtrack Group plc accounts might just be available by perusing online Companies House records.
They are (look for Network Rail as Railtrack became Network Rail). However the accounts are silent on any stats beyond the financial.
 

mesub

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I'm not sure what counting the total number of 'passenger trains' per day would prove, quite apart from the time it would take to go through a doorstep sized 'all lines' timetable to count them.

The number of departures per day from specific stations, or on specific lines, might be a useful comparison, but I can't quite see what it proves on a national basis.

I'm trying to compare the level of service (hence why I'm looking for the number of passenger trains) provided against passenger usage (I'll likely use total passenger kilometres travelled) as part of my write-up. It'll also include reasons why (e.g. deregulation and the introduction of franchising).
Might Railtrack Group plc (1994-2002) have published statistics in their annual reports at this time?
Will look into it, thank you!

Noting that 'numbers of trains' is not necessarily a very meaningful statistic (in terms of 'circular', 'linked', long v short distance trains and so on) I wonder whether Passenger Train km operated might be a more useful?

I hope that this helps.

This is definitely something that I could use if it's a different statistic to total passenger kilometres travelled, thank you! I don't suppose you know where I could find historical data for it?
 

Dr Hoo

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I'm trying to compare the level of service (hence why I'm looking for the number of passenger trains) provided against passenger usage (I'll likely use total passenger kilometres travelled) as part of my write-up. It'll also include reasons why (e.g. deregulation and the introduction of franchising).

Will look into it, thank you!



This is definitely something that I could use if it's a different statistic to total passenger kilometres travelled, thank you! I don't suppose you know where I could find historical data for it?
As I noted above, it was an ‘official statistic’ in Transport Statistics Great Britain - an Her Majesty’s Stationery Office publication. This was a series of books published annually although the content and scope evolved over the years. I am afraid that I have no idea how they might have been digitised or archived.
 

mesub

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As I noted above, it was an ‘official statistic’ in Transport Statistics Great Britain - an Her Majesty’s Stationery Office publication. This was a series of books published annually although the content and scope evolved over the years. I am afraid that I have no idea how they might have been digitised or archived.

As luck may have it, it looks like there's a copy of Transport statistics: Great Britain 1978-1988 at a library which is accessible to me (i.e. I can take a few buses to get there).

There seems to be very little online in general about data for other years, however, so I'll need to think about how I'm going to work through that.
 

Dr Hoo

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As luck may have it, it looks like there's a copy of Transport statistics: Great Britain 1978-1988 at a library which is accessible to me (i.e. I can take a few buses to get there).

There seems to be very little online in general about data for other years, however, so I'll need to think about how I'm going to work through that.
I have a series including all the years from about 1965-1995 literally 'on my desk'. I think that when you become a 'full member' of the Forums (after 5 posts or sometime like that?) you will be able to 'Personal Message' (PM) me and I may be able to assist with your research.

It is in finding more recent equivalent/comparative data that difficulties may arise.

Best wishes with your research (without wishing to extend it to a PhD thesis).
 

hexagon789

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Noting that 'numbers of trains' is not necessarily a very meaningful statistic (in terms of 'circular', 'linked', long v short distance trains and so on) I wonder whether Passenger Train km operated might be a more useful?

The official Transport Statistics Great Britain 1995 edition shows Passenger Train km as 350,200,000 in 1993-4. This was the last year before privatisation got under way. The following year was heavily affected by Railtrack signaller strikes. Under sectorisation in the 1980s the figure had grown from around 311,000,000 in 1985.

I am not aware of a comparable published figure for recent years, even allowing for recent covid-reduced timetables.

It is interesting that even Terry Gourvish's definitive official Business Histories of British Railways, with a wealth of statistical comparison, do not seem to include numbers of services. Neither do Transport Statistics Great Britain, at least over the 1965-1995 period.

I hope that this helps.
Passenger train kilometres appear in the ORR stats, for instance in Q2 they were 13.5bn - 81% of the average for 2018-19.
 

mesub

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I have a series including all the years from about 1965-1995 literally 'on my desk'. I think that when you become a 'full member' of the Forums (after 5 posts or sometime like that?) you will be able to 'Personal Message' (PM) me and I may be able to assist with your research.

It is in finding more recent equivalent/comparative data that difficulties may arise.

Best wishes with your research (without wishing to extend it to a PhD thesis).

Thank you so much!

Passenger train kilometres appear in the ORR stats, for instance in Q2 they were 13.5bn - 81% of the average for 2018-19.

I've seen those stats and it'll be useful for passenger demand (which seems to be much easier to find). The level of service is currently what I'm chasing after.
 

The exile

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Just count on a sample of typical timetable pages, work out the average number of trains per page, then multiply by the total number of pages containing timetables. It won't be 100% accurate but it should be a good approximation.
(Note - be careful to omit pages that only differ in the dates on which they operate**; also treat Saturdays and Sundays separately from Monday/Friday services. )

** - In other words, if part of a timetable were to cover only June to September, do not also count those pages covering only October to December.
Although thei issue here is that many train services will appear in multiple timetables.
Might the BRB annual report have a rough figure?
 
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