Historical Metropolitan Service Pattern

[Jayden99]

Hi All,
So I'm looking at a tube map from the late 80's, when the H&C and ELL were still part of the Metropolitan. However Aldgate is shown as a peak hours only service. So where did services from what we see now as being the Met (Amersham/Watford/Uxbridge) terminate off peak? Was it the bay platforms at Moorgate/Baker Street or did they continue along to Whitechapel and Barking? Thanks!

 

[bluegoblin7]

Hi All,
So I'm looking at a tube map from the late 80's, when the H&C and ELL were still part of the Metropolitan. However Aldgate is shown as a peak hours only service. So where did services from what we see now as being the Met (Amersham/Watford/Uxbridge) terminate off peak? Was it the bay platforms at Moorgate/Baker Street or did they continue along to Whitechapel and Barking? Thanks!

Yes, Baker Street. At the time it was possible to reverse south to north in all four platforms.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Hi All,
So I'm looking at a tube map from the late 80's, when the H&C and ELL were still part of the Metropolitan. However Aldgate is shown as a peak hours only service. So where did services from what we see now as being the Met (Amersham/Watford/Uxbridge) terminate off peak? Was it the bay platforms at Moorgate/Baker Street or did they continue along to Whitechapel and Barking? Thanks!

As far as I remember, the "out-of-town" Mets (ie not those now called H&C) have never gone beyond Aldgate. Weren't they always too long for many of the platforms from Aldgate East onwards?

Yes, Baker Street. At the time it was possible to reverse south to north in all four platforms.

Surely it still is possible - and happens in times of disruption when none can run through to the City?

 

[Dstock7080]

Surely it still is possible - and happens in times of disruption when none can run through to the City?

No longer possible for northbound trains to depart from pfm.3 at Baker Street

 

[Snow1964]

I think the S8 trains and new signalling mean they couldn’t quite get into platform 2 at Baker Street and reverse as bit to long.

Back in the 1980s a limited number of peak hour trains also used The bay platform at Liverpool Street. I think this bay was closed sometime in 1990s.

The East London line was separate and only empty stock transfers used the connecting spur from Aldgate East. These used single 4car units.

Once Driver Only Operation was introduced, there were very few 4 car units with both cabs converted, majority only had one cab done, so had to work as pairs with the middle cabs unmodified.

Regarding the Hammersmith and City. Off peak trains terminated in the 2 middle platforms at Whitechapel (now filled in with Crossrail buildings). The extensions to Barking were peak hours only (and some of these were effectively in service depot runs to/from the sidings)

There was a handful of odd short workings, as 6car C stock (used on H&C and circle) also used 2 sidings at Edgware Road and 3 sidings at Farringdon

 

[Busaholic]

I think the S8 trains and new signalling mean they couldn’t quite get into platform 2 at Baker Street and reverse as bit to long.

Back in the 1980s a limited number of peak hour trains also used The bay platform at Liverpool Street. I think this bay was closed sometime in 1990s.

The East London line was separate and only empty stock transfers used the connecting spur from Aldgate East. These used single 4car units.

Once Driver Only Operation was introduced, there were very few 4 car units with both cabs converted, majority only had one cab done, so had to work as pairs with the middle cabs unmodified.

Regarding the Hammersmith and City. Off peak trains terminated in the 2 middle platforms at Whitechapel (now filled in with Crossrail buildings). The extensions to Barking were peak hours only (and some of these were effectively in service depot runs to/from the sidings)

I remember the Liverpool Street terminators too - weren't these in effect an extension of the Moorgate terminators and/or a way of getting late-running Aldgates back nearer par?

 

[Dstock7080]

Regarding the Hammersmith and City. Off peak trains terminated in the 2 middle platforms at Whitechapel (now filled in with Crossrail buildings).

It was not possible to use both centre platforms from each direction, two eastbound, two westbound only.
H&C trains could reverse in either eastbound platform.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I think the S8 trains and new signalling mean they couldn’t quite get into platform 2 at Baker Street and reverse as bit to long.

Trains can still reverse south to north in Baker Street platform 2, and indeed ‘bypass’ a train in platform 3 by running all the way south. This is a twice daily booked move.

Only the ability to reverse in platform 3 has been lost.

 

[Daniel740]

I have to say that the timetabling on the Met line is absolutely appalling, even pre-COVID. Constantly cancelled trains, bunching especially on the Uxbridge branch and little information why means that I always try to use alternative means of getting to my destination.

 

[etr221]

While - as stated above - the 'traditional' service from the Metropolitan's 'Extension' to Harrow and beyond was off-peak to Baker Street, and in peak hours throught to the CIty (Aldgate was the main terminal, also Liverpool Street (which I think was the used for 'loco hauled' services until 1961) and Moorgate), between 1939 and 1941 there was a through Uxbridge-Barking service.

Between the wars (ended 1939 or 1941, sources differ) there were 'Metropolitan' services through from Hammersmith to New Cross & New Cross Gate (in addition to EL 'locals' from Shoreditch). (Until LPTB days, there was no Met/H&C service to Whitechapel and Barking)

Detailed histrory of the development of services on the Metropolitan, Metropolitan District and associated Railways from 1863, through electrification up until WW2 is distinctly complex (and not that much simpler afterwards)

 

[AlbertBeale]

Trains can still reverse south to north in Baker Street platform 2, and indeed ‘bypass’ a train in platform 3 by running all the way south. This is a twice daily booked move.

Only the ability to reverse in platform 3 has been lost.

Thanks to the various experts for putting right my out-of-date assumptions about Baker Street. Is there a reason why Platform 3 at Baker Street is no longer an option for reversals? I'd have thought it more important than being able to do so in 2, in cases where a southbound to the City - having already got as far as Baker St (and hence being on 3) - ends up having to have the rest of its run cancelled because of problems further round; surely that must happen occasionally? What happens then? If the trackwork still allows reversals from 4, it seems strange, to an amateur, that the connection to reverse from 3 isn't still an option too. Or is it simply that something about the new signalling means it isn't allowed to leave 3 northwards in passenger service, but it is physically possible? (Apologies in advance if this is a silly question.)

 

[Harsig]

Thanks to the various experts for putting right my out-of-date assumptions about Baker Street. Is there a reason why Platform 3 at Baker Street is no longer an option for reversals? I'd have thought it more important than being able to do so in 2, in cases where a southbound to the City - having already got as far as Baker St (and hence being on 3) - ends up having to have the rest of its run cancelled because of problems further round; surely that must happen occasionally? What happens then? If the trackwork still allows reversals from 4, it seems strange, to an amateur, that the connection to reverse from 3 isn't still an option too. Or is it simply that something about the new signalling means it isn't allowed to leave 3 northwards in passenger service, but it is physically possible? (Apologies in advance if this is a silly question.)

The ability to reverse south to north in platform 3 was removed in 2010 when platforms 1 and 4 were extended at their north ends to accommodate then new longer S stock. After the extension there wasn't room for two separate crossovers (12 & 13) so the ability to reverse in 3 was lost.

This PDF shows (over 2 pages) the changes:

Baker Street Track Layout Changes

 

[AlbertBeale]

The ability to reverse south to north in platform 3 was removed in 2010 when platforms 1 and 4 were extended at their north ends to accommodate then new longer S stock. After the extension there wasn't room for two separate crossovers (12 & 13) so the ability to reverse in 3 was lost.

This PDF shows (over 2 pages) the changes:

Baker Street Track Layout Changes

Thanks for this explanation. Though presumably the diamond crossing between 12 and 13 could have had slip points to allow access to Platform 3 too? (And wasn't there, once, a scissors crossing beyond all that trackwork, in the Finchley Road direction?) If a train does have to turn back, having reached platform 3, is there signalling to allow it to run on the wrong track until wherever the first crossover is? Or would it have to shunt backwards and forwards across crossing 11, reversing 3 times in the process?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Thanks for this explanation. Though presumably the diamond crossing between 12 and 13 could have had slip points to allow access to Platform 3 too? (And wasn't there, once, a scissors crossing beyond all that trackwork, in the Finchley Road direction?) If a train does have to turn back, having reached platform 3, is there signalling to allow it to run on the wrong track until wherever the first crossover is? Or would it have to shunt backwards and forwards across crossing 11, reversing 3 times in the process?

There is no facility at all to run north from platform 3. To do so would require a wrong direction move, with all of the additional disruption that that would entail.

Any train detained in platform 3 would have to wait out the disruption. This does happen on occasion but is not the huge issue some are making it out to be.

If the issue permitted such a train could shunt south onto the Outer Rail and reverse Outer to Inner, and then return north into platform 2.

 

[rebmcr]

Though presumably the diamond crossing between 12 and 13 could have had slip points to allow access to Platform 3 too?

Slip points are no longer used in modern layouts, due to increased maintenance, more complicated signalling, increased opportunity for errors such as the one at Ealing Broadway, and by their nature they cause routes across them to occupy a lot of capacity in station throats (restricting the number and type of possible parallel moves). The benefits they bring just aren't worth it.

They're also being completely removed in the Kings Cross mainline throat full re-layout in the next few years.

 

[philthetube]

Can someone explain what slip points are please.

Cheers.

 

[Dstock7080]

Can someone explain what slip points are please.

Cheers.

not a diamond crossing or points:

 

[Mojo]

Can someone explain what slip points are please.

Cheers.

It’s effectively two sets of points on top of each other.

Examples from the Underground Network are at Ealing Broadway on the District (single slip), and Northfields / Arnos Grove on the Picc (both double slips). People are probably aware that points have an A and a B end, in the case of the latter two there are A, B, and C ends.

 

[MatthewRead]

So when was the off peak Met service to Aldgate introduced?

 

[MichaelAMW]

Hi All,
So I'm looking at a tube map from the late 80's, when the H&C and ELL were still part of the Metropolitan. However Aldgate is shown as a peak hours only service. So where did services from what we see now as being the Met (Amersham/Watford/Uxbridge) terminate off peak? Was it the bay platforms at Moorgate/Baker Street or did they continue along to Whitechapel and Barking? Thanks!

I hope the attached is interesting or useful for you, to see how the peak and off peak worked. I've included the weekend for Uxbridge as you can see a couple of late-night trains ran then, even though there was nothing to/from the City on Saturday or Sunday (apart from a couple of balancing workings southbound first thing in the morning). Remarkable that Rickmansworth and beyond had only one off-peak Met service!

 

[LUYMun]

I believe there were a few special football workings to Wembley or West Ham (whichever the kick-off was) that included a New Cross train?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Between the wars (ended 1939 or 1941, sources differ) there were 'Metropolitan' services through from Hammersmith to New Cross & New Cross Gate (in addition to EL 'locals' from Shoreditch). (Until LPTB days, there was no Met/H&C service to Whitechapel and Barking)

The sentence in parentheses implies that the route from Liverpool Street to Aldgate East, skirting the north end of Aldgate station, didn't originally have a through service - is that really true? I thought the south-to-east and north-to-east curves to Aldgate East came from a similar era (and indeed originally shared a station a little to the west of the present Aldgate East (perhaps before the tracks merged). And given the history of the companies which agreed to share services round the Circle, I wouldn't have been surprised if those routes pre-dated Aldgate station (or, if not, pre-dated the Aldgate - Tower Hill connection).

 

[etr221]

Metropolitan/H&C trains through to the East London line went round from Liverpool Street through Aldgate East (line from Aldgate E Jn to the EL was Met + MDR joint). The Whitechapel & Bow (from St Mary's Jn east) came later, in 1902, and was MDR + LTSR joint (no Met interest)

 

[jfisher21]

I hope the attached is interesting or useful for you, to see how the peak and off peak worked. I've included the weekend for Uxbridge as you can see a couple of late-night trains ran then, even though there was nothing to/from the City on Saturday or Sunday (apart from a couple of balancing workings southbound first thing in the morning). Remarkable that Rickmansworth and beyond had only one off-peak Met service!

I remember that timetable well from my school days, 22 and 55 from Harrow to Ricky. Extra at 1612!

 

[adrock1976]

While on the topic of historical service patterns, where did the Stanmore branch trains terminate before it was transferred to the Bakerloo?

 

[30907]

While on the topic of historical service patterns, where did the Stanmore branch trains terminate before it was transferred to the Bakerloo?

ISTR initially it was mostly a shuttle to Wembley Park.
Google found me this https://www.londonreconnections.com...-future-of-metropolitan-line-services-part-1/ which suggests there were soon through trains to the usual London termini.

 

[LU_timetabler]

I have to say that the timetabling on the Met line is absolutely appalling, even pre-COVID. Constantly cancelled trains, bunching especially on the Uxbridge branch and little information why means that I always try to use alternative means of getting to my destination.

That is not the timetable that is appalling it is the line's inability to stick to the timetable. The Mets to Uxbridge are timetabled to within 2 minutes of completely evenly. Some gaps for Piccadilly trains slightly affect the even intervals.

 

[Mojo]

That is not the timetable that is appalling it is the line's inability to stick to the timetable. The Mets to Uxbridge are timetabled to within 2 minutes of completely evenly. Some gaps for Piccadilly trains slightly affect the even intervals.

I would agree with this. It often suffers with a poor service because all of the trains (except at peak times and early morning/late night) come through from the City and so any problems east/south of Baker St tend to affect the Uxbridge service. Unfortunately for whatever reason the service control team are often reluctant to divert a train from Watford to Uxbridge this being despite the near identical journey time and doing so would mean that a train would be back at Harrow on the Hill for the right time on the southbound with a few minutes layover. The reason I say Uxbridge is because many Amersham / Chesham trains have a crew relief at Ricky.

In the past it has not been uncommon during service recovery to be stood at Harrow on the Hill and watch three or four trains carrying fresh air toward North Harrow whilst the station is packed with customers waiting to go toward Uxbridge.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I would agree with this. It often suffers with a poor service because all of the trains (except at peak times and early morning/late night) come through from the City and so any problems east/south of Baker St tend to affect the Uxbridge service. Unfortunately for whatever reason the service control team are often reluctant to divert a train from Watford to Uxbridge this being despite the near identical journey time and doing so would mean that a train would be back at Harrow on the Hill for the right time on the southbound with a few minutes layover. The reason I say Uxbridge is because many Amersham / Chesham trains have a crew relief at Ricky.

In the past it has not been uncommon during service recovery to be stood at Harrow on the Hill and watch three or four trains carrying fresh air toward North Harrow whilst the station is packed with customers waiting to go toward Uxbridge.

Politics. Where possible trains will be diverted between Uxbridge and Watford on the fly, but outside of the peak cancelling one Watford (by sending it to Uxbridge) immediately creates a 30 minute headway; unless there's issues that mean an Uxbridge is going to be a similar amount of time, it is unfortunately "better for the customer" to have one branch at 'Minor', or even 'Severe' Delays, rather than two.

If service control were left to actually run the railway and not have to worry about such things it wouldn't be as bad as it is. This is a problem that affects many lines.

(I think that's the diplomatically acceptable answer.)

 

[Daniel740]

And yet again, today large gaps between trains on the Met leading to overcrowding. The signallers really need to pull their finger out of their ears...