History Of 'The Cleveland Executive' - Middlesbrough to London King's Cross

[FQTV]

The subject of the erstwhile HST service between Teesside and London King's Cross has cropped up in a few threads, and there have been various recollections and further enquiries about how and when it ran.

They're often a bit tangential to the main subject that has catalysed the discussion, so I thought that a dedicated thread might be a useful repository for specifics, following on from the likes of:

There was a Durham coast service - up to KX early morning, down ex KX c 16.30 - even in steam days. I'm pretty sure it didn't serve Middlesbrough. must have stopped at Thornaby, I think.

I remember seeing it one sunny summer evening in 62 or 63 at Blackhall Rocks behind a V2. I can't remember if it continued working during the Cl 47/55 era. Use of HSTs mean it could reverse relatively easily and run into Middlebrough, of course.

From what I can divine, there must have been a fairly lengthy hiatus between the steam hauled services, and the resumption with an HST.

A letter to Modern Railway in the late 1970s suggests that there’d long been no service from Teesside and, at that point, apparently no imminent expectation of there being one.

And this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/middlesbrough-to-kings-cross.31992/#post-427508

Further interrogation of Modern Railway reveals, then, that The Cleveland Executive was inaugurated on 5th January 1981.

Departure from Middlesbrough was at 07:10, arriving King's Cross at 10:11. The down service left King's Cross at 16:40, and reached Middlesbrough at 19:48. Stops in both directions at launch were at Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, York & Stevenage.

It was reported in the February 1981 issue of MR that the service had been due to start before this date, but was hampered by delays in the HST delivery programme caused by manufacturing problems with the GEC traction motors. The launch in January of that year was ony made possible by the reversion of a Leeds working to locomotive haulage.

The expectation at that time was that the Middlesbrough to London route would be served twice daily once further deliveries of Eastern Region HSTs had occurred.

 

[RT4038]

The subject of the erstwhile HST service between Teesside and London King's Cross has cropped up in a few threads, and there have been various recollections and further enquiries about how and when it ran.

They're often a bit tangential to the main subject that has catalysed the discussion, so I thought that a dedicated thread might be a useful repository for specifics, following on from the likes of:




And this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/middlesbrough-to-kings-cross.31992/#post-427508

Further interrogation of Modern Railway reveals, then, that The Cleveland Executive was inaugurated on 5th January 1981.

Departure from Middlesbrough was at 07:10, arriving King's Cross at 10:11. The down service left King's Cross at 16:40, and reached Middlesbrough at 19:48. Stops in both directions at launch were at Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, York & Stevenage.

It was reported in the February 1981 issue of MR that the service had been due to start before this date, but was hampered by delays in the HST delivery programme caused by manufacturing problems with the GEC traction motors. The launch in January of that year was ony made possible by the reversion of a Leeds working to locomotive haulage.

The expectation at that time was that the Middlesbrough to London route would be served twice daily once further deliveries of Eastern Region HSTs had occurred.

I remember this service starting (I think it came from Newcastle via Sunderland and Hartlepool), and a bit later introduced a 07h15? London-Middlesbrough and 16h30? back. If I remember correctly, prior to these trains Northallerton got no London service calls, except a Sunday Newcastle-London which travelled via the coast line.
The morning service from London was introduced for business traffic to & from ICI, and co-incided with the major cutbacks to Teeside industries, so was withdrawn within a few years.

 

[marsker]

I, too, remember this service starting. Originally, the train was ECS from/to Heaton, but it was changed to run as a passenger servive cia Hartlepool and Sunderland fairly quickly. One anomaly was that, when it first started, departure westwards from platform 2 at Middlesbrough was controlled by a position light signal, the proper colour light was added after a few weeks or months.
The service ended with the electrification of the ECML.
The so called HST car park and HST sidings at the east end pf platform 1 were named after this service, the sidings are still so called I believe.
When I moved to Teesside in 1978, I remember that I couldn't find anything in the GBTT that ran via the Northallerton - Eaglescliffe line although I was quite sure I'd never seen any formal closure proposal for it. Yarm station didn't exist then, so there were no open stations on that stretch of line. It was therefore most welcome to see a scheduled passenger service that way.

 

[IanXC]

The so called HST car park and HST sidings at the east end pf platform 1 were named after this service, the sidings are still so called I believe.

Does anyone know how these were used? Was it a case of the HST having to do a double shunt from platform 2 to the sidings, or is there a long removed crossover that enabled the move?

 

[marsker]

They were never used for the HST. They have just been used generally for unit stabling, as well as the dead end sidings for track machines.
They were reconfigured in the early 80s, previously there had been a connection from the Nunthorpe line into the east end controlled by a ground frame.
I have only seen the run round facility used a couple of times, once for a football special for an FA cup match in London, 11 coaches hauled by a Class 31 - at least it was steam heating so had all of it's 1470 galloping horses available to pull the train. The other time was for some special shuttle trains to Shildon works with steam loco 2005. Both times a double shunt was needed to access.

 

[RT4038]

They were never used for the HST. They have just been used generally for unit stabling, as well as the dead end sidings for track machines.
They were reconfigured in the early 80s, previously there had been a connection from the Nunthorpe line into the east end controlled by a ground frame.
I have only seen the run round facility used a couple of times, once for a football special for an FA cup match in London, 11 coaches hauled by a Class 31 - at least it was steam heating so had all of it's 1470 galloping horses available to pull the train. The other time was for some special shuttle trains to Shildon works with steam loco 2005. Both times a double shunt was needed to access.

I rode that special with (6)2005 from Middlesbrough to Shildon (Mason's Crossing). Passengers descended from the carriages to track level by some wooden steps. Imagine that today! About 1982 I think, an open day to commemorate the closure?

 

[GB71]

I have a copy of the GBTT for 1981/82 which showed in addition to the Cleveland Executive there was also a northbound service leaving Kings Cross at 07:25 Monday to Friday calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe and terminating Middlesbrough at 10:34 with a return working at 16:40 from Middlesbrough witht he same calling pattern and terminating Kings Cross at 19:55. I have checked the 1982/83 GBTT and the service was still listed, but had gone by the 1983/84 GBTT.

 

[RT4038]

I have a copy of the GBTT for 1981/82 which showed in addition to the Cleveland Executive there was also a northbound service leaving Kings Cross at 07:25 Monday to Friday calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe and terminating Middlesbrough at 10:34 with a return working at 16:40 from Middlesbrough witht he same calling pattern and terminating Kings Cross at 19:55. I have checked the 1982/83 GBTT and the service was still listed, but had gone by the 1983/84 GBTT.

I travelled on the southbound trip from Eaglescliffe to King's Cross on numerous occasions. Always pretty empty to York.

 

[55002]

Just got the June 1981 ECML WTT out was 1N15 0725 Kings Cross to Middlesbrough pu Stevenage 0746-48, York 0939-41, Northallerton 1001-03 then 1N09 1640 from the Cross, pick up Stevenage at 1700-01, York 1848-51, Northallerton 1913-14.

On the up 1A02 0708 from Middlesbrough 0733-34 Northallerton, 0758-0800 York, Stevenage 0947-48, Kings Cross 1010 and 1A36 1640 from Middlesbrough 1706-07 Northallerton, 1731-34 York, 1931-32 Stevenage, 1955 Kings Cross

 

[ainsworth74]

So I thought it might be interesting to go a bit further back still and see what the situation was. So I dug out my May 75 - May 76 GB Timetable to see what was available to and from Middlesbrough to Kings Cross aaaand the answer was nothing. However there were some services that served Eaglescliffe and Stockton so Teesside does have some links to Kings Cross which I've attempted to tabulate below:

Southbound

	SuO A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) C​
Newcastle	13b45​	22d20​
Sunderland	14 09​	22 46​
Hartlepool	14 37​	23 19​
Stockton	15 00​	23 44​
Eaglescliffe	15 07​	23 50​
York	16 03​	01 06​
London Kings Cross	19 26​	06 12​

A Also calls Seaham 14 18, Billingham 14 48, Northallerton 15 28, Selby 16 20, Doncaster 16 41, Retford 17 00, Newark North Gate 17 19, Grantham 17 36 and Peterborough 18 08

C Also calls Seaham 22 57, Billingham 23 30, Leeds 02 15, Doncaster 03 14 and Grantham 04 09



b Does not convey passengers from Newcastle for stations beyond Northallerton

d Does not convey passengers (except sleeping car passengers) for stations beyond Leeds

Northbound

	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuX A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuO B​
London Kings Cross	01 15​	00 30​
York	06 50​	05 53​
Eaglescliffe	…​	…​
Stockton	07 45​	06 34​
Hartlepool	08 04​	06 51​
Sunderland	08 37​	07 21​
Newcastle	09 02​	07 44​

A Also calls Peterborough 02 41, Grantham 03 21, Retford 03 57, Doncaster 04 20 (set down only), Leeds 05 13, Billingham 07 53, Seaham 08 24

B Also calls Peterborough 01 59, Doncaster 03 30 (set down only), Leeds 04 25
Due to frequent engineering works this train frequently fails to connect at Doncaster with the 03 49 Doncaster to Grimsby/Cleethorpes and the 04 00 Doncaster to Hull

I hope the above is of interest to members! Certainly I found it interesting that the service was some asymmetric with no day time train at all northbound from Kings Cross and Eaglescliffe also not having a northbound call on the Sleeper services. I've checked the timetable very carefully and cannot find any sign of a service so I don't think I've missed it!

 

[30907]

I have a copy of the GBTT for 1981/82 which showed in addition to the Cleveland Executive there was also a northbound service leaving Kings Cross at 07:25 Monday to Friday calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe and terminating Middlesbrough at 10:34 with a return working at 16:40 from Middlesbrough witht he same calling pattern and terminating Kings Cross at 19:55. I have checked the 1982/83 GBTT and the service was still listed, but had gone by the 1983/84 GBTT.

Was there not a mid-day working each way as well? Or did the set sit at Middlesbrough all day?
Memory says the sets were pulled from the ECML to work on the MML.

 

[Cowley]

So I thought it might be interesting to go a bit further back still and see what the situation was. So I dug out my May 75 - May 76 GB Timetable to see what was available to and from Middlesbrough to Kings Cross aaaand the answer was nothing. However there were some services that served Eaglescliffe and Stockton so Teesside does have some links to Kings Cross which I've attempted to tabulate below:

Southbound

	SuO A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) C​
Newcastle	13b45​	22d20​
Sunderland	14 09​	22 46​
Hartlepool	14 37​	23 19​
Stockton	15 00​	23 44​
Eaglescliffe	15 07​	23 50​
York	16 03​	01 06​
London Kings Cross	19 26​	06 12​

A Also calls Seaham 14 18, Billingham 14 48, Northallerton 15 28, Selby 16 20, Doncaster 16 41, Retford 17 00, Newark North Gate 17 19, Grantham 17 36 and Peterborough 18 08

C Also calls Seaham 22 57, Billingham 23 30, Leeds 02 15, Doncaster 03 14 and Grantham 04 09



b Does not convey passengers from Newcastle for stations beyond Northallerton

d Does not convey passengers (except sleeping car passengers) for stations beyond Leeds

Northbound

	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuX A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuO B​
London Kings Cross	01 15​	00 30​
York	06 50​	05 53​
Eaglescliffe	…​	…​
Stockton	07 45​	06 34​
Hartlepool	08 04​	06 51​
Sunderland	08 37​	07 21​
Newcastle	09 02​	07 44​

A Also calls Peterborough 02 41, Grantham 03 21, Retford 03 57, Doncaster 04 20 (set down only), Leeds 05 13, Billingham 07 53, Seaham 08 24

B Also calls Peterborough 01 59, Doncaster 03 30 (set down only), Leeds 04 25
Due to frequent engineering works this train frequently fails to connect at Doncaster with the 03 49 Doncaster to Grimsby/Cleethorpes and the 04 00 Doncaster to Hull

I hope the above is of interest to members! Certainly I found it interesting that the service was some asymmetric with no day time train at all northbound from Kings Cross and Eaglescliffe also not having a northbound call on the Sleeper services. I've checked the timetable very carefully and cannot find any sign of a service so I don't think I've missed it!

It’s interesting thinking about the 24 hour railway that operated in that era. Some of those trains must have sat around for a long time at various stations en route?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What were the typical mid 1970's fare(s) charged on this service (i.e. journeys from Middlesbrough to/from London)?

 

[RT4038]

So I thought it might be interesting to go a bit further back still and see what the situation was. So I dug out my May 75 - May 76 GB Timetable to see what was available to and from Middlesbrough to Kings Cross aaaand the answer was nothing. However there were some services that served Eaglescliffe and Stockton so Teesside does have some links to Kings Cross which I've attempted to tabulate below:

Southbound

	SuO A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) C​
Newcastle	13b45​	22d20​
Sunderland	14 09​	22 46​
Hartlepool	14 37​	23 19​
Stockton	15 00​	23 44​
Eaglescliffe	15 07​	23 50​
York	16 03​	01 06​
London Kings Cross	19 26​	06 12​

A Also calls Seaham 14 18, Billingham 14 48, Northallerton 15 28, Selby 16 20, Doncaster 16 41, Retford 17 00, Newark North Gate 17 19, Grantham 17 36 and Peterborough 18 08

C Also calls Seaham 22 57, Billingham 23 30, Leeds 02 15, Doncaster 03 14 and Grantham 04 09



b Does not convey passengers from Newcastle for stations beyond Northallerton

d Does not convey passengers (except sleeping car passengers) for stations beyond Leeds

Northbound

	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuX A​	(Sleeper Cars Available) SuO B​
London Kings Cross	01 15​	00 30​
York	06 50​	05 53​
Eaglescliffe	…​	…​
Stockton	07 45​	06 34​
Hartlepool	08 04​	06 51​
Sunderland	08 37​	07 21​
Newcastle	09 02​	07 44​

A Also calls Peterborough 02 41, Grantham 03 21, Retford 03 57, Doncaster 04 20 (set down only), Leeds 05 13, Billingham 07 53, Seaham 08 24

B Also calls Peterborough 01 59, Doncaster 03 30 (set down only), Leeds 04 25
Due to frequent engineering works this train frequently fails to connect at Doncaster with the 03 49 Doncaster to Grimsby/Cleethorpes and the 04 00 Doncaster to Hull

I hope the above is of interest to members! Certainly I found it interesting that the service was some asymmetric with no day time train at all northbound from Kings Cross and Eaglescliffe also not having a northbound call on the Sleeper services. I've checked the timetable very carefully and cannot find any sign of a service so I don't think I've missed it!

On the overnight trains, was it just the sleeping cars that ran through?

 

[RT4038]

Was there not a mid-day working each way as well? Or did the set sit at Middlesbrough all day?
Memory says the sets were pulled from the ECML to work on the MML.

There was no mid-day working. The set may well have travelled empty to & from Heaton during the day.
I think sets were pulled from the Western and Eastern for the MML.

 

[ainsworth74]

It’s interesting thinking about the 24 hour railway that operated in that era. Some of those trains must have sat around for a long time at various stations en route?

Not as much as you'd think actually! The service was just very much slower in the mid-70s in general. There's no Selby Diversion and no 125mph running (not that that would apply to sleepers but still). The day time southbound has a couple of minutes at most stations whilst the sleepers have longer waits at a handful of stations like Leeds and York (twenty minutes or so usually).

On the overnight trains, was it just the sleeping cars that ran through?

I don't know sadly. It's a GBTT not the WTT so doesn't have that much detail on the operational constraints. But I suspect that they may have cut out the seating cars on the southbound from Newcastle considering the admonishment that passengers are not conveyed south of Leeds except sleeper passengers. The northbound services I have no idea as there simply isn't any note that I can spot that indicates whether it was sleeping cars only or not. My guess is that there were seats though.

 

[RT4038]

I don't know sadly. It's a GBTT not the WTT so doesn't have that much detail on the operational constraints. But I suspect that they may have cut out the seating cars on the southbound from Newcastle considering the admonishment that passengers are not conveyed south of Leeds except sleeper passengers. The northbound services I have no idea as there simply isn't any note that I can spot that indicates whether it was sleeping cars only or not. My guess is that there were seats though.

I saw the train regularly in the couple of years before withdrawal but it is so long ago my memory is a little cloudy! I vaguely think the day coaches (2 I think) did not go through, because the sleepers were attached/detached from an ECML via Durham train at Darlington. At that time it was hauled by a class 31 diesel on the Newcastle-Darlington section, and of course in the am formed a busy 'Paytrain' service into Newcastle with Mk1 compartment stock.
The service was withdrawn when the timetable was recast on closure of Darlington DMU depot and transfer to Thornaby.

 

[ainsworth74]

I saw the train regularly in the couple of years before withdrawal but it is so long ago my memory is a little cloudy! I vaguely think the day coaches (2 I think) did not go through, because the sleepers were attached/detached from an ECML via Durham train at Darlington. At that time it was hauled by a class 31 diesel on the Newcastle-Darlington section, and of course in the am formed a busy 'Paytrain' service into Newcastle with Mk1 compartment stock.
The service was withdrawn when the timetable was recast on closure of Darlington DMU depot and transfer to Thornaby.

Fascinating, thank you

 

[RT4038]

Fascinating, thank you

Looking at your timetable (and one of mine a little earlier) I think there must have been an economy made sometime between '76 and '80, because as I recall by 1980 the Coast sleepers traveled in the 01h00 from London as far as Darlington, and then went forward after a fair wait with 2 day coaches as a 07h20(ish) Darlington-Newcastle via the Coast. The return left Newcastle about 21h20 to Darlington to be attached to a train leaving about Midnight, again with a bit of a wait.
I didn't realise until this thread, that previously the Coast sleeper had been a whole train via Leeds!

 

[30907]

Looking at your timetable (and one of mine a little earlier) I think there must have been an economy made sometime between '76 and '80, because as I recall by 1980 the Coast sleepers traveled in the 01h00 from London as far as Darlington, and then went forward after a fair wait with 2 day coaches as a 07h20(ish) Darlington-Newcastle via the Coast. The return left Newcastle about 21h20 to Darlington to be attached to a train leaving about Midnight, again with a bit of a wait.
I didn't realise until this thread, that previously the Coast sleeper had been a whole train via Leeds!

I did an Eastern Rover in 1975 but didn't use the coast train (I do remember bedding down in an SK to Darlington to catch the early Whitby...).
There were some all-sleeper trains back then, but most overnights were mainly vans and seats. I would be 99% certain this one ran through complete to Newcastle, simply detaching a sleeper (or 2?) at Leeds - the restriction on seated passengers joining at Newcastle was to manage the loadings (it only applied from there, and it was the same on the Sunday day train).

 

[GB71]

RT4038 - I have checked my 79/80 GBTT and you are right that by then it was the 01:00 off Kings Cross which arrived Darlington 05:12 and departed again at 07:20 for Stockton, Billingham, Hartlepool, Seaham, Sunderland and arriving Newcastle 09:04

 

[alistairlees]

Not as much as you'd think actually! The service was just very much slower in the mid-70s in general. There's no Selby Diversion and no 125mph running (not that that would apply to sleepers but still). The day time southbound has a couple of minutes at most stations whilst the sleepers have longer waits at a handful of stations like Leeds and York (twenty minutes or so usually).



I don't know sadly. It's a GBTT not the WTT so doesn't have that much detail on the operational constraints. But I suspect that they may have cut out the seating cars on the southbound from Newcastle considering the admonishment that passengers are not conveyed south of Leeds except sleeper passengers. The northbound services I have no idea as there simply isn't any note that I can spot that indicates whether it was sleeping cars only or not. My guess is that there were seats though.

If there was no note: “sleeping cars only”, then it also conveyed seats.

 

[ainsworth74]

If there was no note: “sleeping cars only”, then it also conveyed seats.

There was not! Thanks for the information. Having grown up sadly long after the peak of sleeper travel the idea of a sleeper car only train is something which is a bit foreign to me.

 

[marsker]

I wasn't really close to the railway scene in the 70s, my main memories are from the 60s. From Newcastle, there was an all sleeper train to London at 22:45, named "The Tynesider", which picked up at Durham and Darlington. and there was a 22:30 sleeper and seating train which ran via the coast and, it I remember correctly, seating passengers from Newcastle could only travel as far as Eaglescliffe, but those joining from Sunderland onwards had no restriction. I used it in a school trip in 1961, where we were allocated seated accommodation all the way from Newcastle. It must have been a Saturday night as I remember stopping in the middle roads at Lincoln!. When we left Newcastle, loco was 60046 Diamond Jubillee, by the time we arrived at Kings Cross it was 60034 Lord Farringdon!
In answer to some earlier comments on this thread, in the 60s, after the Deltic timetable was introduced, there was an 18:05 from Kings Cross, which ran via Sunderland. It was booked for a Class 47 (as they later became). I used it on a few occasions from Peterborough, but changed at York as the DMU connection from there got back to Newcastle before closing time! (Younger members won't remember when pubs had to close at 22:30).
We're getting a bit off topic here, but seeing as we're in the railway history and nostalgia section . . .

 

[43096]

There was no mid-day working. The set may well have travelled empty to & from Heaton during the day.
I think sets were pulled from the Western and Eastern for the MML.

A pretty easy decision to make - sit on Teesside during the day, or get in rather more revenue spending all day working on the MML.

The decision to transfer HST sets to the MML was one of the first decisions the new InterCity sector made apparently and saw decisions based on where sets would make the best commercial return nationally. It would take another 30 years or so before the HSTs could stretch their legs at 125mph on the MML, though.

 

[RT4038]

A pretty easy decision to make - sit on Teesside during the day, or get in rather more revenue spending all day working on the MML.

The decision to transfer HST sets to the MML was one of the first decisions the new InterCity sector made apparently and saw decisions based on where sets would make the best commercial return nationally. It would take another 30 years or so before the HSTs could stretch their legs at 125mph on the MML, though.

I think the re-allocation was done after service cuts on both lines following the loss of passengers due to the 'flexible rostering' strikes of 1982 era.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What were the typical mid 1970's fare(s) charged on this service (i.e. journeys from Middlesbrough to/from London)?

Just to bump my previous post on this thread, does anyone have any info on the typical mid 1970's fare for this particular flow? (And was there any premium payable in order to travel on the named "Cleveland Executive" services?)

 

[RT4038]

Just to bump my previous post on this thread, does anyone have any info on the typical mid 1970's fare for this particular flow? (And was there any premium payable in order to travel on the named "Cleveland Executive" services?)

I'm pretty sure that there was no premium fare to be paid to travel on the 'Cleveland Executive'. There will have been some sort of 'inclusive' deal first class ticket package to include meals and parking I expect. Too long ago to remember what the fares were then!

 

[Taunton]

Must have been about 1986 I needed to make an early morning York to Kings Cross, so was waiting for this service, at what I would guess was its busiest stop. About 10 minutes before it was due it was announced as substantially delayed, followed by another that the (Newcastle Executive ?) which followed it, nonstop from Darlington to London, was going to make a special stop at York for us. Which it did. In those days the catering crew would have known nothing about this until the actual stop and everyone coming in through the door, but rose to the occasion splendidly and managed to squeeze in another breakfast sitting. Goodness knows where they got all the extra food from.

A pretty easy decision to make - sit on Teesside during the day, or get in rather more revenue spending all day working on the MML.

Just because the set is running all day does not mean it is making adequate revenue to cover its operating costs (which are the majority of overall costs). The Midland Pullman on the MML in the 1960s was given a mid-day fill-in from St Pancras to Nottingham and back. it was described as "the most luxurious ECS on the system".

Having grown up sadly long after the peak of sleeper travel the idea of a sleeper car only train is something which is a bit foreign to me

Even if advertised as sleeper only, and there weren't many, just the trunk run on each main line, they commonly had seated accommodation as well. There were no sleepers with brakes, so a brake vehicle was always necessary, and although it might be a BG normally a BSK or BCK was favoured, and often two or three. Sitting in these on the sleeper-only was very much at the discretion of the guard, the word was "don't turn up drunk". Sailors in uniform returning to base, which for some reason liked to have an early morning report time, always seemed the principal user, this was not just a feature of the Paddington-Plymouth service, heading for Devonport, but also the Edinburgh run going to Rosyth. Officers were entitled to actual sleeping car accommodation, which also for those travelling between the two bases kept the through Plymouth-Edinburgh overnight service going for a long time. It helped that, certainly on the Plymouth services, many of the guards, sleeper stewards, and indeed other GWR/BR staff there, were onetime Royal Navy themselves.