History of Transpennine services

[alistairlees]

Just to clarify, did pre-1990s 'Trans Pennine' services from the Leeds/Huddersfield direction, to Manchester and stations beyond, tend to use Piccadilly or Victoria (or both)? Talking about the 1970s/1980s here.

Victoria (and, before that, Exchange). There were no services to Piccadilly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Victoria (and, before that, Exchange). There were no services to Piccadilly.

Manchester Exchange closed 1969, so that'd be just outside the 1970s/1980s (i.e. before I can remember!)

One further question: When did 'Trans Pennine' services from the Leeds/Huddersfield direction towards Piccadilly (via Guide Bridge presumably?) actually first operate?

 

[Taunton]

Just to clarify, did pre-1990s 'Trans Pennine' services from the Leeds/Huddersfield direction, to Manchester and stations beyond, tend to use Piccadilly or Victoria (or both)? Talking about the 1970s/1980s here.

Initially in fact Exchange. When that was closed, probably late 1960s they shifted next door to Victoria, and that was the route until the 1990s change to use Piccadilly. I think it was probably possible to always run that way by a series of connections that passenger trains didn't use, but it was never done.

Although thought of as a onetime LNWR line it had bits of the old L&Y interspersed. The line from Manchester Exchange/Victoria to Stalybridge was one such, the local trains on this section only ever ran from Victoria, but not beyond. The LNWR always considered the Standedge main line to come through Stalybridge to Stockport, and thence Crewe, which was the principal freight and mail etc artery, going to Manchester and Liverpool being a bit of a sideshow. Over in Yorkshire the line either side of Mirfield was also running powers over the L&Y, eventually the LNWR built a rather tortuous and steeply graded "New Line" of their own, which never seemed to get much favour and was a bit of a route of last resort.

 

[Magdalia]

I found the 1963 NER PTT on Timetable World, though I found it hard to navigate. The pattern of 2 out and backs from each end for Liverpool/Newcastle applied then, as in 1974, but the routes were more complicated.

The two morning trains from Newcastle were 8.42 and 9.49 am, the former via Darlington and York, the latter via Stockton and Ripon. The return workings were 3.0 and 5.5 pm from Liverpool, the former via Ripon and the latter via York, but both via Darlington.

The two morning trains from Liverpool were 9.0 and 11.0 am. I can't be sure of the route for the former it seems to run non-stop from Leeds to Darlington, the latter went via Ripon then Darlington. The return workings were 3.16 and 4.42 pm from Newcastle, both via Darlington but then the former via Ripon and the latter via York.

Unless I've missed something, nothing from Liverpool to Newcastle went via Stockton.

Back in the late 'sixties/early 'seventies, the mid-morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via the Durham coast line, calling at Sunderland, West Hartlepool and departing from Stockton at 11 06 - diagrammed for a Gateshead 46. For the gaggle of spotters hanging around the Marlborough Road footbridge at Hartburn Junction, it was the highlight of our day....especially on the occasions when a 40 or 45 substituted for the booked 46. There was presumably a corresponding return working in the evening, although I don't recall ever having seen it. This was my default spotting location during the school holidays when staying with my grandparents on Teesside.

This does appear in Table 1 of my ER PTTs. The second morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via Stockton until May 1972, the 1106 departure time at Stockton lasting to the bitter end!

But, as in 1963, there appears to be no return working via Stockton.

And to stray a bit off topic, do you remember the Newcastle-Colchester (summer)/Lincoln(winter) at Stockton? Bizarrely, that also had an unbalanced route with the Colchester (summer)/Lincoln(winter)-Newcastle going via Darlington.

The railway clearly expected more people to leave Stockton than to arrive!

 

[Killingworth]

Every time I read Transpennine I feel waves of historic indignation. Only one major corridor now catches the public attention, the routes between Leeds and Manchester. There are, and have been several others.

The first line to cross the Pennines was the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway, primarily because it avoided the highest parts. Some would discount that because the hills to the north are the Cheviots, but they're still part of the Pennine chain. It provided the first through trains from Carlisle to London - via Gateshead.

The South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway crossed the Pennines connecting Darlington to Tebay. I travelled on that about 1958 and can confirm it was bleak and the 3 carriages were an optimistic provision.

Today's Wensleydale Railway was next coming south, connecting Northallerton to Garsdale on the Settle and Carlisle line; which itself crosses the Pennines obliquely.

I'll leave the West Riding/West Yorkshire/South Yorkshire lines for others but would finish with the Matlock, Buxton route - Woodhead? Takes cover!

 

[Harvester]

Unless I've missed something, nothing from Liverpool to Newcastle went via Stockton.


This does appear in Table 1 of my ER PTTs. The second morning Newcastle-Liverpool ran via Stockton until May 1972, the 1106 departure time at Stockton lasting to the bitter end!

But, as in 1963, there appears to be no return working via Stockton.

And prior to 1963 the only Liverpool to Newcastle working via Stockton was the 10.30 am Liverpool Exchange to Newcastle. This was cut back to York from 2/1/61 after the timetable revision. The return working was via Darlington.

The 5.37 pm FO Manchester to Newcastle mentioned up thread ran via Stockton until 1962. It then ran via Darlington until 1964, before being cut back to York.

I was a bit surprised the morning Liverpool train via the Durham Coast and Stockton lasted until 1972, although by that time I was living away from the area, and out of touch with events.

 

[Bevan Price]

Every time I read Transpennine I feel waves of historic indignation. Only one major corridor now catches the public attention, the routes between Leeds and Manchester. There are, and have been several others.

The first line to cross the Pennines was the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway, primarily because it avoided the highest parts. Some would discount that because the hills to the north are the Cheviots, but they're still part of the Pennine chain. It provided the first through trains from Carlisle to London - via Gateshead.

The South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway crossed the Pennines connecting Darlington to Tebay. I travelled on that about 1958 and can confirm it was bleak and the 3 carriages were an optimistic provision.

Today's Wensleydale Railway was next coming south, connecting Northallerton to Garsdale on the Settle and Carlisle line; which itself crosses the Pennines obliquely.

I'll leave the West Riding/West Yorkshire/South Yorkshire lines for others but would finish with the Matlock, Buxton route - Woodhead? Takes cover!

The formal name, "Trans Pennine" only started to be applied when Class 124 were introduced. Before that, all cross-Pennine services were largely untitled.

And prior to 1963 the only Liverpool to Newcastle working via Stockton was the 10.30 am Liverpool Exchange to Newcastle. This was cut back to York from 2/1/61 after the timetable revision. The return working was via Darlington.

That was also one of the few through trains between Liverpool & York at that time, and often worked as far as York by a Bank Hall Jubilee.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Victoria (and, before that, Exchange). There were no services to Piccadilly.

In May 1989 the Liverpool - Newcastle services were rerouted from Manchester Victoria to use Warrington Central and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Ianigsy]

Growing up on Merseyside, the first I can remember of the loco-hauled Liverpool-Newcastle service was a Liverp- St Helens Junction- Victoria-Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Leeds-York route, almost certainly with the generator batch of 47/4s. 45s then seemed to take over a bit, then the second batch of 47s which inherited some of the names like Gateshead, North Eastern etc. The 45s went over to the North Wales-Hull route before being replaced by 150s.

Until the 158s took over in 1991, the standard pattern from Liverpool then became alternating Newcastle (47) and Scarborough (could be any second generation DMU but settled down as 156s). I’ve definitely seen a 142 turned out for a Liverpool-Scarborough! For a few months prior to the 158 takeover, the 47s used were those displaced from Inverness by the first batch of 158s with Highland names.

 

[Revaulx]

When first dieselised the Liverpool-Newcastle services were operated with class 40's-2 based at Gateshead and 2 nominally Edge Hill although anything based on the LM could turn up. Which for a young spotter made these worth waiting for.
After a couple of years the 46's replaced all the 40's

That’s interesting. I’m sure it was nearly all 40s in the early 70s. They were fine on the flat Liverpool & Manchester, but seemed glacially slow when they got to the hilly bit.

 

[alistairlees]

Here's May 1985 to May 1986 in summary form (express services only; onne way only). I will summarise others if / when I get the chance

Liverpool LS d.	Chester d.	Manchester V d.	Leeds d.	York a.	Scarborough a.	Newcastle a.
06.12		07.13	08.27	08.54		10.29	All station stopper from LIV to MCV
07.05		07.48	08.55	09.22	10.28		changed locos at York
08.05		08.48	09.55	10.22		11.59
09.05		09.48	10.55	11.22	12.26		changed locos at York
10.05		10.48	11.55	12.22	13.22
	10.42	11.48	12.55	13.22		14.59	09.21 from Bangor
12.05		12.48	13.55	14.22	15.19
	12.42	13.48	14.55	15.23		16.59	11.14 from Bangor
14.05		14.48	15.55	16.23	17.29		changed locos at York
	14.42	15.48	16.55	17.23			13.00 from Bangor
16.05		16.48	17.55	18.23		19.59
	16.32	17.48	18.55	19.23			15.18 from Llandudno
18.05		18.48	19.55	20.24		21.59
	19.06	20.12	21.20	21.47			17.03 from Holyhead
20.44		21.41	22.51	23.18

 

[Revaulx]

Initially in fact Exchange. When that was closed, probably late 1960s they shifted next door to Victoria, and that was the route until the 1990s change to use Piccadilly. I think it was probably possible to always run that way by a series of connections that passenger trains didn't use, but it was never done.

Although thought of as a onetime LNWR line it had bits of the old L&Y interspersed. The line from Manchester Exchange/Victoria to Stalybridge was one such, the local trains on this section only ever ran from Victoria, but not beyond. The LNWR always considered the Standedge main line to come through Stalybridge to Stockport, and thence Crewe, which was the principal freight and mail etc artery, going to Manchester and Liverpool being a bit of a sideshow. Over in Yorkshire the line either side of Mirfield was also running powers over the L&Y, eventually the LNWR built a rather tortuous and steeply graded "New Line" of their own, which never seemed to get much favour and was a bit of a route of last resort.

The “series of connections” were MSJ&A (joint LNW/GC) from Ordsall Lane through Castlefield Junction to London Road/Piccadilly platforms 13 & 14, i.e. the infamous Castlefield Corridor.

It was built to connect the two sides of the LNW’s Manchester empire (ex Liverpool & Manchester and Manchester & Birmingham; at the time the LNW was thinking of merging with the MS&L and built a number of joint lines with them in the area.

You’re right about the New Line being a bit of a white elephant; its curves and gradients were only suitable for slow freight. I understand it had a bit of an Indian summer in the early 60s though; the Trans Pennine DMUs were well up to its challenges and were frequently sent that way, running to pretty impressive timings.

 

[Harvester]

That was also one of the few through trains between Liverpool & York at that time, and often worked as far as York by a Bank Hall Jubilee.

Then on up the Durham Coast line, often behind one of York’s A2s. Besides the motive power the route was also interesting, Liverpool Exchange to York via Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Then on up the Durham Coast line, often behind one of York’s A2s. Besides the motive power the route was also interesting, Liverpool Exchange to York via Wakefield Kirkgate.

Going back to pre-grouping days. The L & Y route and the LNWR route - both handing over to the NER.
I suspect most trains between Liverpool and Hull from the 1920s to the 1960s ran on the LNER route Liverrpool, Manchester area, Woodhead, Sheffield Victoria and Doncaster.

 

[D6130]

And to stray a bit off topic, do you remember the Newcastle-Colchester (summer)/Lincoln(winter) at Stockton? Bizarrely, that also had an unbalanced route with the Colchester (summer)/Lincoln(winter)-Newcastle going via Darlington.

Yes, I do remember it and it ran for a few more years longer than the Newcastle-Liverpool. It wasn't so exciting for us spotters though, as it was booked for a Duff - I seem to remember 1572 being a regular performer. IIRC, one summer it ran to Yarmouth.

The railway clearly expected more people to leave Stockton than to arrive!

Sadly that has been the case for many years as a result of the decline in the area's heavy industry.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Growing up on Merseyside, the first I can remember of the loco-hauled Liverpool-Newcastle service was a Liverp- St Helens Junction- Victoria-Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Leeds-York route, almost certainly with the generator batch of 47/4s. 45s then seemed to take over a bit, then the second batch of 47s which inherited some of the names like Gateshead, North Eastern etc. The 45s went over to the North Wales-Hull route before being replaced by 150s.

45/1s became regulars on the route after being displaced from the Midland Main Line by HSTs. However by this time Hull was no longer served by trains on this route. As an aside they did occasionally reach Hull on a peak hour working from/to Leeds that was part of a S&C diagram as well as the short spell when Hull had a couple of portions for Summer Saturday trains to the West Country. The 150s often worked in 6-car formations but were kept away from Newcastle runs.

In addition to the main service pattern there used to be various bucket+spade runs on Summer Saturdays including York-Llandudno(x2?), Man Vic-Scarborough, Newcastle-Blackpool etc. All of these were good bets for 40s while that class lasted. Another occasional 40 turn was on the Mon-Fri 1710 York-Man Vic which stopped at a lot of stations not served by the main expresses. Also not so far mentioned is that 31s were infrequent substitutions but Control had to be desperate as they had no chance of keeping time on the hilly section between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[Sultan1056]

That was the theory, but reliability was less than perfect, and steam substitutions out of Liverpool continued fairly often until 1967 - but steam was normally replaced by diesel at Leeds. Class 40s often appeared instead of 46s into the 1980s. As noted above, from 1983, through services to Liverpool were reduced, with some Trans Pennine services diverted to North Wales. Class 47 started with early occasional appearances, but had become the normal booked power by the end of loco haulage. Classes 31 & 55 made occasional appearance if a 47 was unavailable; I was once told that if a Deltic was used, it usually ran on half power, with only one of the two engines operating. Can anyone confirm? Certainly they did not need 3300 hp to keep time with only 5 or 6 coaches. Very rarely, a Class 37 would replace a failed loco.

Train loads were steadily reduced over the years. Steam era Liverpool/Newcastle trains were typically 11 or 12 coaches; this changed to 9/10 coaches on dieselisation, and gradually declined to only 5 coaches. Most steam era services ran via Harrogate rather than York, with reversal & loco change (LMSR to/from LNER) at Leeds. On dieselisation, those trains avoided reversal at Leeds by going via Wetherby to Harrogate - until that route, and Harrogate to Northallerton were closed.

Class 124 was also reduced from 6 to 5 coaches in later years, and even some 4 coach formations appeared.

Sometimes a non-124 driving motor car was substituted for a failed 124 driving motor, but there was no through corridor connection between the substitute and the rest of the Class 124.

I travelled on several Deltics over the Pennines and they were always operating on two engines.

 

[Magdalia]

I suspect most trains between Liverpool and Hull from the 1920s to the 1960s ran on the LNER route Liverrpool, Manchester area, Woodhead, Sheffield Victoria and Doncaster.

The Great Central route did have through trains, but there weren't many of them.

In summer 1962 there was a 6.0 am Hull to Manchester Piccadilly and 9.33 am/4.29 pm Hull to Liverpool Central. Going the other way were 9.30 am/4.52 pm Liverpool Central to Hull and 4.10 pm Manchester Piccadilly to Hull.

The Liverpool trains finished at the end of the 1962 summer, I think the carriage workings were linked in with the North Country boat train from/to Harwich, which was cut back from Liverpool Central to Manchester Piccadilly at the same time.

But the Manchester workings survived until the end of the 1965 summer, the big switch of services from Victoria to Midland in Sheffield after construction of the Nunnery curve.

 

[chipbury]

As a teenager in the NE in the late 80's we saw a lot of the 47 hauled services. They never got too boring to us as it was always a chance for a loco hauled start to a trip. I remember we did the last loco hauled run from Newcastle as far as York (it was a school night and we had to get back to Eaglescliffe). I have no notes of the loco on that service though.
At the time my dad and I made up a rake of OO coaches in the trans-pennine livery using spray paints and transfers. I still have them and they look pretty good even today (I wouldn't stand them next to an Accurascale or other such manufacturer though!).

 

[Neptune]

I travelled on several Deltics over the Pennines and they were always operating on two engines.

From what I recall although this may not be totally correct they used Deltics on Liverpool runs after they’d had an exam at YK. I also seem to recall that they gave locos a run out to Liverpool in the last year prior to working a railtour (2, 9, 15 and 22 were the dedicated railtour locos).

 

[nw1]

Growing up on Merseyside, the first I can remember of the loco-hauled Liverpool-Newcastle service was a Liverp- St Helens Junction- Victoria-Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Leeds-York route, almost certainly with the generator batch of 47/4s. 45s then seemed to take over a bit, then the second batch of 47s which inherited some of the names like Gateshead, North Eastern etc. The 45s went over to the North Wales-Hull route before being replaced by 150s.

Until the 158s took over in 1991, the standard pattern from Liverpool then became alternating Newcastle (47) and Scarborough (could be any second generation DMU but settled down as 156s). I’ve definitely seen a 142 turned out for a Liverpool-Scarborough! For a few months prior to the 158 takeover, the 47s used were those displaced from Inverness by the first batch of 158s with Highland names.

Thanks for this.

Interesting they used 'stopping' units (i.e. 150s, Pacers) on some services.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for this.

Interesting they used 'stopping' Sprinters (i.e. 150s, Pacers) on some services.

The 150/2s were not designed purely for "stopping" services, they were for more medium distance routes, the outer gangway connections permitted a catering trolley service to be provided which was used on routes such as Edinburgh-Dundee where they replaced a motley selection of 1st gen DMUs which replaced the previous loco-hauled workings which instead went on Kirkcaldy stoppers for a brief period.

Just because of the 2+3 seating and door layout doesn't mean BR intended them as suburban units, after all in early years the 150/2s also did longer workings such as Swansea-Cardiff-Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance etc replaced by 155s.

 

[Taunton]

Back in history, but Tuplin's classic book "North Western Steam" (published 1963, plenty of secondhand ones around) has an extended description, in Tuplin's usual journalist style, of a trip on a LNWR Prince of Wales 4-6-0 from Hull to Liverpool, on exactly this route, in 1915. There's an extended extract from it on the web in SteamIndex, which some may find interesting :

William (Bill) Tuplun

Authorhip of Bill Tuplin

www.steamindex.com

This was a day return footplate trip from Liverpool to Hull and back (almost as bad as Euston and back). There was a comparable service in the opposite direction, for which the LNWR outstationed another Prince of Wales at the NER shed in Hull. The extract misses out the best bit, where the fireman on the return lost his grip on the shovel and it went into the fire ... and how they overcame this

 

[nw1]

The 150/2s were not designed purely for "stopping" services, they were for more medium distance routes, the outer gangway connections permitted a catering trolley service to be provided which was used on routes such as Edinburgh-Dundee where they replaced a motley selection of 1st gen DMUs which replaced the previous loco-hauled workings which instead went on Kirkcaldy stoppers for a brief period.

Just because of the 2+3 seating and door layout doesn't mean BR intended them as suburban units, after all in early years the 150/2s also did longer workings such as Swansea-Cardiff-Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance etc replaced by 155s.

Ah right OK. I made my comment because I only started seeing and using Sprinters and Pacers circa 1993. At that time, with 156s and 158s fully introduced, 150s were, to my observation, almost universally running on slower services calling at most stations (though admittedly reasonable distance in some cases) such as Bristol-Weymouth, Bristol-Southampton or various commuter lines in the Manchester area.

 

[hexagon789]

Ah right OK. I made my comment because I only started seeing and using Sprinters and Pacers circa 1993. At that time, with 156s and 158s fully introduced, 150s were, to my observation, almost universally running on slower services calling at most stations (though admittedly reasonable distance in some cases) such as Bristol-Weymouth, Bristol-Southampton or various commuter lines in the Manchester area.

By that point, yes you would be right I think but initially at least the /2s often saw useage more on longer jaunts more in line with services you'd expect 156s to operate.

 

[Ken H]

By that point, yes you would be right I think but initially at least the /2s often saw useage more on longer jaunts more in line with services you'd expect 156s to operate.

Such was the panic for regional railways to get out of loco hauled services that they used 150's to achieve that. Only when 155/6 and later 158's were the 150's cascaded to more suitable work. So 150's on long 'express' runs were quite common in the early Sprinter days.

 

[Sprinter107]

I remember the Holyhead to Hull trains being pairs of Newton Heath 150/2s around about 1987 1988 time, but they were very often a 150/2 paired with a blue, orange, or chocolate and cream coloured 142. I have seen trolleys trying to come thro a bouncing 142 on the non stop run from Prestatyn to Chester

 

[Harvester]

The South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway crossed the Pennines connecting Darlington to Tebay. I travelled on that about 1958 and can confirm it was bleak and the 3 carriages were an optimistic provision.

I managed it once in 1959, on a school excursion to Penrith which branched off at Kirkby Stephen. We had a pair of Darlington’s Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0s over Stainmore.

 

[Magdalia]

I managed it once in 1959, on a school excursion to Penrith which branched off at Kirkby Stephen. We had a pair of Darlington’s Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0s over Stainmore.

Wow! the nearest I've managed is a car ride on the A66, which follows a similar route to the railway on the eastern side. Stainmore was the highest point on the railway in England, something over 1300 feet above sea level. But the line wasn't important enough to get into the gradient profiles book: what was the ruling gradient?

 

[Harvester]

Wow! the nearest I've managed is a car ride on the A66, which follows a similar route to the railway on the eastern side. Stainmore was the highest point on the railway in England, something over 1300 feet above sea level. But the line wasn't important enough to get into the gradient profiles book: what was the ruling gradient?

I was a young school boy at the time, and didn’t really appreciate the occasion, or the line’s pending demise. Have memories of locos seen that day at Darlington, but unfortunately none remain of climbing Stainmore, or crossing Belah Viaduct. Rather sad ☹️