Hitachi Factory - First Group order 14 new trains with options for 13 more

[edwin_m]

But most European trains will not fit the loading gauge here, will the only option be road and ship to transport them and will that make it cost prohibitive?

That's a tiny element of the cost base. After all CAF and Stadler supply many countries from their facilities in Spain despite the track gauge difference making it impossible to export them by rail*.

Probably much more significant is the UK being outside the Euro. Customers will want to pay in Euro and the more of a supplier's cost base is in other currencies, the more they are at risk from exchange rate fluctuations. Brexit trade barriers don't help either.

*Yes the Spanish high speed network is 1435mm but that wouldn't be used for a this sort of move.

 

[800Travel]

News article now out - https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/hitachi-rail-jobs-county-durham-30529287

A contract to safeguard the future of Hitachi Rail’s operations in Newton Aycliffe has been confirmed by the Government, as part of what Number 10 called "a £500 million deal that will uplift the industrial heartlands, and boost rail services for passengers across the UK". Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer announced on Friday that an agreement had been struck for Hitachi to build 14 new trains for FirstGroup, which runs train services including Lumo and Avanti West Coast.

Which FirstGroup brand I suppose remains a question for the speculation thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-hitachi-trains-be-going.278063/#post-7065911)

 

[John R]

That's a tiny element of the cost base. After all CAF and Stadler supply many countries from their facilities in Spain despite the track gauge difference making it impossible to export them by rail*.

Probably much more significant is the UK being outside the Euro. Customers will want to pay in Euro and the more of a supplier's cost base is in other currencies, the more they are at risk from exchange rate fluctuations. Brexit trade barriers don't help either.

It’s easy enough to hedge against exchange rate volatility, although that will of course be an added cost.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

From a Financial Times article […]

In an interview with the Financial Times, Toshiaki Higashihara said the 750 jobs at the site at Newton Aycliffe near Durham could not be guaranteed unless demand increased.

“If [the northern leg] stays cancelled, then the volume of work at Newton Aycliffe goes down,” he said, “so the issue is rising in terms of the extent to which we must think about manpower.”


“If the Labour government doesn’t re-examine plans within one year, it’s going to be a problem,” Higashihara added, referring to the drop in demand before Hitachi starts construction next year of trains for the first leg of HS2 and the longer term uncertainty over demand.

[…]


Any future orders for the second leg of HS2 would be made in several years’ time, according to people with knowledge of the timings.

Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer will claim on Friday that a new £500mn order from First Group for 70 train cars will help secure the future of the Newton Aycliffe factory.

But while the order, which is not backed by government funding, is a significant boost to the plant, it will not be enough to entirely fill production gaps, people with knowledge of the business said.

Higashihara said he had met Starmer and discussed HS2, adding that he believed the project could be resurrected under Labour.

“For Labour, the original plan connects to economic development and regional revitalisation, so I think returning to the original plan would be better for the development of the UK,” he said.

[…]


Higashihara said the company was also discussing alternative plans with the government, including possible deals to replace diesel engines on trains with batteries, “to see if we can adjust the workload at Newton Aycliffe”.

The UK rail industry has been facing headwinds from policy U-turns, rising costs and a dearth of new orders from cash-strapped British transport operators.


The Newton Aycliffe factory opened in 2015 as a result of the UK government’s decision to upgrade train carriages on the East Coast main line and Great Western line. The region has suffered from high levels of unemployment after Teesside Steelworks closed down.

In December 2023, Hitachi wrote down the value of the plant by £64.8mn, raising speculation that it could be heading towards closure.

The Department for Transport did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

14x5-car 80x for FirstGroup's Open Access services, with an option for another 13 trains.
I don't know what Kier Starmer had to do with this order, as no government money appears to be involved.

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

uk.finance.yahoo.com

FirstGroup plc (the ‘Group’) is pleased to announce that it has entered into a Lease Agreement with Angel Trains Limited (‘Angel Trains’) and Hitachi Rail Limited (‘Hitachi’) for the lease of 14 new trains.

• The Group has signed an agreement with Angel Trains and Hitachi to lease 14 new five-car class 80X Hitachi electric, battery electric or bi-mode trains (70 cars in total) at a cost of c.£500m including maintenance, over a ten year lease period
• The trains will be manufactured by Hitachi in County Durham, securing the skills base and jobs in the local area
• The new trains will enable FirstGroup to significantly expand its open access portfolio and will be used on the newly announced London-Carmarthen route and to increase the number of cars on the existing Lumo and Hull Trains services
• The agreement also contains an option for FirstGroup to lease up to an additional 13 trains on the same terms if the Group’s open access applications are granted by the Office of Rail and Road (‘ORR’)

 

[Trainbike46]

So, Keir Starmer is trying to get good publicity out of something that has nothing to do with him, or the government more widely?

 

[XCTurbostar]

14x5-car 80x for FirstGroup's Open Access services, with an option for another 13 trains.
I don't know what Kier Starmer had to do with this order, as no government money appears to be involved.

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

uk.finance.yahoo.com

If Starmer thinks 70 vehicles will 'save' a factory hes joking.

The new trains will enable FirstGroup to significantly expand its open access portfolio and will be used on the newly announced London-Carmarthen route and to increase the number of cars on the existing Lumo and Hull Trains services

This seems to suggest the lengthening of 802 and 803s?

 

[800001]

If Starmer thinks 70 vehicles will 'save' a factory hes joking.


This seems to suggest the lengthening of 802 and 803s?

I think the wording is poor. Hull trains were disposed to be doing Sheffield to Kings Cross, and Lumo on ECML were looking at another service, they would need more trains to do that.

 

[Trainbike46]

If Starmer thinks 70 vehicles will 'save' a factory hes joking.

I mean, it only has to be saved for long enough for work on HS2 trains to start

 

[swt_passenger]

If Starmer thinks 70 vehicles will 'save' a factory hes joking.

Yes, it’s a drop in the ocean really.

This seems to suggest the lengthening of 802 and 803s?

No, it reads to me ordering more 5 car trains, as in “14 x 5 car”. I suppose therefore that any lengthening of existing HT or Lumo services will be by running them in pairs.

 

[Wolfie]

Ah thanks! Didn’t realise there were two factories in trouble and I don’t really follow rolling stock in detail.

They pretty much all are - too much capacity and not enough orders.

Yet another train order placed, not because we actually want the trains, but because the government is terrified of bad headlines about a plant closure.

So we will continue to have a vast oversupply in railway vehicle construction capacity and continue to pay over the odds for new trains as a result.

Yup.

Well it wouldn't be a problem if stuff which needed replacing was replaced by these new trains.

In theory yes. In practice scrapping trains early is economic and ecological madness. Buying potentially inappropriate rolling stock (most of what needs replacing are DMUs) for political reasons is no better.

 

[DarloRich]

If Starmer thinks 70 vehicles will 'save' a factory hes joking.

This order fills in a massive gap in the order book securing the future of the factory an workforce until they comence the HS2 contract they hold.

 

[Bradford1]

There's a new article in financial times literally in the last hour that Newton Aycliffe at risk unless HS2 northern leg revived

 

[Trainbike46]

They pretty much all are - too much capacity and not enough orders.


Yup.


In theory yes. In practice scrapping trains early is economic and ecological madness. Buying potentially inappropriate rolling stock (most of what needs replacing are DMUs) for political reasons is no better.

While this is true, there is a very significant fleet of trains, mostly DMUs (sprinters, 16x, HSTs), that is very much near end of life - and will be end of life when any new stock ordered actually arrives. Ordering replacement for those trains would be sensible policy. In my view, those trains should be replaced with a mix of EMUs, BEMUs, and diesel/OHLE(/Battery) bi/tri-modes.

There is also scope for extending trains on some IC operators.

Of course, expanding the IC fleet is what turned out to be happening, through the LUMO/Hull Trains order that was placed.

There's a new article in financial times literally in the last hour that Newton Aycliffe at risk unless HS2 northern leg revived

That's surprising, because not building the northern leg doesn't decrease the stock needed? if anything, it would require a larger fleet, as the individual trains will be less productive due to spending more time running slowly over conventional infrastructure

 

[Whistler40145]

Just seen this on X

x.com

x.com

FirstGroup orders 14 Hitachi 80X units for Lumo services on Great Western and East Coast Main Lines https://railmagazine.com/news/2024/12/06/firstgroup-orders-14-hitachi-80x-units-for-lumo-services-on-great-west-and-east-coast-main-lines

The announcement comes a day after FirstGroup announced it had acquired Grand Union's Paddington-Carmarthen operation, and had put in a request with the ORR to start a London-Paignton service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a new article in financial times literally in the last hour that Newton Aycliffe at risk unless HS2 northern leg revived

They'll be OK until about 2030 with the HS2 Phase 1 production.
Phase 2 was a long way off even before its cancellation, and there would be no guarantee that Hitachi-Alstom would build the trains anyway.
Future workloads will depend on how the TOCs currently running diesel trains are re-equipped, and again that will be a competition.

 

[JamesT]

That's surprising, because not building the northern leg doesn't decrease the stock needed? if anything, it would require a larger fleet, as the individual trains will be less productive due to spending more time running slowly over conventional infrastructure

If you're only building the truncated version of HS2, then you don't have as many services switching over to use HS2 and requiring the specialised rolling stock, they'll still be on the classic network with their existing trains.

 

[Trainbike46]

If you're only building the truncated version of HS2, then you don't have as many services switching over to use HS2 and requiring the specialised rolling stock, they'll still be on the classic network with their existing trains.

That is entirely true of the eastern leg, however, not of the northern leg.

Think of it like this: what services would run on HS2 if the line from Birmingham-Crewe-Manchester gets built, but would run fully conventionally if only phase 1 is constructed?

The only one I can think of is maybe the Manchester-Birmingham and Glasgow-Birmingham services. However, they could still run over HS2, depending on how track capacity is divided, and the rolling stock requirements for those services is very small in the overall order size, so would likely be eaten up by *increased* stock requirements for the London-Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow services due to longer travel time.

 

[Mikey C]

14x5-car 80x for FirstGroup's Open Access services, with an option for another 13 trains.
I don't know what Kier Starmer had to do with this order, as no government money appears to be involved.

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

FirstGroup Plc - Fourteen new trains to drive First Rail open access growth

uk.finance.yahoo.com

Starmer and the local paper taking credit for a private open access operator buying a few more trains, is a bit desperate. Along with the suggestions that this wouldn't have happened under the Tories.

 

[DanNCL]

14x 5-car units. Will be a mix of 802s/805s, 803s/807s and a new battery class.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Starmer and the local paper taking credit for a private open access operator buying a few more trains, is a bit desperate. Along with the suggestions that this wouldn't have happened under the Tories.

He's a politician and his party tried to take credit for the Man Vic - Stalybridge electrification which was completed before they even entered government. What do you expect?

 

[Simon11]

Happy to be corrected, but is this largest ever order for a private operator in the UK who operates on an open access basis?

I presume the optional trains are for the routes/ paths which First Group have submitted to the ORR for approval. Thus, if they are given, they can quickly add onto the rolling stock order.

 

[John R]

I presume the optional trains are for the routes/ paths which First Group have submitted to the ORR for approval. Thus, if they are given, they can quickly add onto the rolling stock order.

Yes, the market press release makes that clear.

One oddity is that the service to Stirling is not mentioned in it, which would seem an obvious candidate for the new trains.

 

[Simon11]

Yes, the market press release makes that clear.

One oddity is that the service to Stirling is not mentioned in it, which would seem an obvious candidate for the new trains.

The Stirling route was approved to operate from June 2025 to 2030, thus I guess they are using existing available rolling stock in the market to operate it by next year? If the route is successful, they can purchase new trains and secure an extension for the route?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

There's a new article in financial times literally in the last hour that Newton Aycliffe at risk unless HS2 northern leg revived

See post 37

 

[Tetchytyke]

Starmer and the local paper taking credit for a private open access operator buying a few more trains, is a bit desperate.

I'm sure the government has had plenty of involvement in the process behind the scenes. First and Agility won't sign such a huge contract unless they know for certain that the trains will be used and, crucially, will continue to be used even if the OA operations go belly-up.

These sorts of behind-the-scenes machinations also prevent there being issues with state aid and procurement, etc.

 

[brad465]

Happy to be corrected, but is this largest ever order for a private operator in the UK who operates on an open access basis?

I presume the optional trains are for the routes/ paths which First Group have submitted to the ORR for approval. Thus, if they are given, they can quickly add onto the rolling stock order.

Depends on whether Eurostar counts as an OAO or not. Either way I reckon is the largest for a purely UK order on this basis.

 

[Energy]

I'm sure the government has had plenty of involvement in the process behind the scenes. First and Agility won't sign such a huge contract unless they know for certain that the trains will be used and, crucially, will continue to be used even if the OA operations go belly-up.

These sorts of behind-the-scenes machinations also prevent there being issues with state aid and procurement, etc.

First and Angel Trains for this one.

Government likely had little involvement, it isn’t a particularly big contract and is for already well proven trains. They haven’t guaranteed rolling stock ordered by OAOs before.

This order was going to to be OAO or possibly some options supposedly within the Avanti 80X contract. Public procurement rules mean they rightly can’t just give the Northern/Chiltern/GWR/SouthEastern contract to Hitachi because they are quiet.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The Stirling route is planned to be operated (at least initially) with 222 units. Negotiations with Eversholt are ongoing.

When the industry consultation for the Paignton services starts next week, the draft supplemental agreement and Form P application form states 802 units for both it and Carmarthen. FG have a few months to determine the exact mix of diesel/electric, battery/electric and straight electric sets they require for the whole order.

To be clear, we are talking about new 5 car units here, not additional cars, which are not on offer. If they were, they would be in pairs of cars as 80x units are (equipment) configured for odd car formations - 5, 7 or 9.

Although the Government were informed of this order, they haven’t really been involved and certainly have not given guarantees to anyone. FG and Angel are on risk for this. It is the certainty of a Track Access Contract that allows FG to place an order and for the ROSCO to let them have such a contract.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think the wording is poor. Hull trains were disposed to be doing Sheffield to Kings Cross, and Lumo on ECML were looking at another service, they would need more trains to do that.

Lumo has been looking at extending their existing service to Glasgow for a couple months now, as well as an earlier Newcastle-London service.