Holding Carriage, Bell and Heater key "illegal"

[kingqueen]

In a routine security search entering a Court building this morning (I'm prosecuting a case) the security staff confiscated my Carriage, Bell and Heater key on the grounds that they are illegal for members of the public to have. He then called the head of security as a result.

Er, no. There are many places that sell them online, including some that do so with no checks - e.g. https://www.unipartrailexpress.com/product.aspx?66 £5.94 + VAT and delivery, https://www.rivval.com/Product.aspx?p=RP00179/35 €13.37+VAT and delivery.

I use mine to get into our binyard: we had a problem with people dumping rubbish in it (some driven from another town to do so, they left envelopes in it...) and we're all disabled so a conventional key is difficult for many people. A door handle with the handle removed, so to speak, and a nice chunky carriage key that's easy to grip and self locates in the hole, is pretty accessible whilst still forming a basic barrier / inconvenience to fly tippers.

If I was to use the key to access things on the railway (which of course I don't) that would be different, or for that matter if I used it as some form of knuckle duster... But just possessing one can't be illegal, surely?

Mind you, the same security once confiscated our (female) barrister's safety razor (she'd stayed at a local hotel overnight) as a potential offensive weapon, and also my USB-powered fan...

 

[tsr]

The humble t-key (otherwise known by the name above, and more besides) is also in use in other industries for quite a number of purposes. Often the designs of these keys are similar to the railway variants. There must be dozens of industrial applications under which you could legitimately need one, and many people with such needs must enter courts every year.

For what it's worth, I have carried a number of railway keys, including this one, without any problems through various security checks at unrelated facilities. Sometimes I've had to explain why I have them, as some look a bit unusual, but no more than that.

Most train designers are becoming wise to the fact that the t-key is not uniquely held by the railway, and many functions of a lot of stock do now require extra keys or authorisation, or else are failsafe.

The only hazard is indeed that a key of this design could theoretically be held in such a way as to be a weapon, but then the same can be said of a lot of commonly held implements, not limited to sturdier types of pens, for example.

I suppose that without a specialist industry use and accompanying work ID or suchlike, it would be harder to prove you use something like this for a legitimate reason. I'd see no reason you shouldn't be given it back when you leave the building, though, as the suggested risk to the court has then been eliminated whilst you've been there.

As for those websites, the less said the better. I'm seriously considering reporting some of the stuff they've got on sale without "needs authorisation" marked beside it. No, I won't specify what.

 

[Adlington]

In a routine security search entering a Court building this morning (I'm prosecuting a case) the security staff confiscated my Carriage, Bell and Heater key on the grounds that they are illegal for members of the public to have.
[...]
But just possessing one can't be illegal, surely?.

It seems you are a lawyer of some sort, so why do you need to ask a question about the legality of possessing something in a rail forum?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It seems you are a lawyer of some sort, so why do you need to ask a question about the legality of possessing something in a rail forum?

Because off the top of his head maybe he hasn't memorised every law in the land , as stated is at court so maybe on a short break and hasn't time to look it up and just asking a simple question.

Cant people sometimes just answer questions rather than question every motive behind every question?

Such cynicism on this forum.

 

[Adlington]

Cynicism and legal expertise.

 

[Mag_seven]

It seems you are a lawyer of some sort, so why do you need to ask a question about the legality of possessing something in a rail forum?

Is that not obvious - given the fact that the item in question is a piece of railway equipment? Many railway staff are on these forums and will be in a good position to advise on the "legality" of holding a "Carriage" key or not.

 

[tsr]

Is that not obvious - given the fact that the item in question is a piece of railway equipment? Many railway staff are on these forums and will be in a good position to advise on the "legality" of holding a "Carriage" key or not.

As above - though - it may be one of the railway designs, but very similar variants are used all over the country in other industries. So it is never clear cut if it is for railway use or not.

 

[Adlington]

Many railway staff are on these forums and will be in a good position to advise on the "legality" of holding a "Carriage" key or not.

Ok, so a follow-up question, this time to railway staff: Have you ever been given (or shown) a piece of equipment, and told that it's illegal for anybody outside your profession to have (repeat: "have", not "use") such a device?

 

[ComUtoR]

Er, no. There are many places that sell them online, including some that do so with no checks - e.g. https://www.unipartrailexpress.com/product.aspx?66 £5.94 + VAT and delivery, https://www.rivval.com/Product.aspx?p=RP00179/35 €13.37+VAT and delivery.

Just because something is sold, doesn't make it legal. I think a key term in your post is 'with no checks'

Found these links

Railway keys on ebay
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112853 (7 pages)

Carriage Keys
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17112 (5 pages)

 

[greatkingrat]

But equally, just because something can potentially be used for nefarious purposes doesn't make it illegal to either possess or sell.

 

[Clip]

Ignoring the guff about whether or not they are legal ( my gas meter also can be accessed using a T key) how on earth does a security guard at a court of law know what such keys are?

 

[kingqueen]

It seems you are a lawyer of some sort, so why do you need to ask a question about the legality of possessing something in a rail forum?

I'm not a lawyer... In any case, as others have said, what's wrong with asking? Sheesh.

Actually I was mostly existing incredulity on it being confiscated. Along with my USB fan. I did get it back afterwards though, despite security calling the head of security because they claimed owning a T key is illegal

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm a bus driver, and we all had T keys. Was never told it was illegal as we drove buses and not trains! Various flaps and panels needed a T key to open them, and it is easier to give everyone a T key. Before electronic destination displays, some buses, annoyingly, needed a T key to change the destination.

 

[neilmc]

Most people who work in security are quite frankly not the brightest bulb in the box and blithely make up stuff to justify their (mis)deeds.

My son, who's an airline pilot, was chided by these people for having a bottle of water in his bag when passing through security to board the flight he was working, and the guy went on and on about cockpit crew setting an example.

My son told him that he has an axe in the cockpit and didn't need a bottle of water should he decide to bring the plane down.

 

[jonathan01n]

I think if the law doesn't say it, then it should be legal to have it. I will check if the laws regarding to railway says non railway staff should not possesses railway tools.
It is an offence to possess an offensive weapon in public place, or getting equipped to steal however merely owning such tools should not be illegal.
It maybe breach of British Rail or TOC policies when such tools is leaked into the public.
People buy such keys on ebay may be guilty of handling stolen goods if the staff steal it from British Rail or the TOC they work with.
But if the key is being copied and return to TOC without knowledge then there should be no offence.

The T-key got lots of usage. I used it in a lathe to fit the column into the machine.

 

[cf111]

The ancient dumbwaiter in one of the courts I work in needs a t-key to work, I should hope I'm not breaking the law when operating it as that would be most embarrassing!

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe a BR1B key can only be held by railway staff and should be returned after employment

 

[Jonny]

Besides, with the proliferation of 3d printers, it isn't that difficult to produce a sufficiently accurate replica of at least a T key in a suitably hard plastic (or a cast version from such a piece). BR1 keys etc. might be a bit harder though; equally it would only have to work once for a miscreant.

 

[headshot119]

I believe a BR1B key can only be held by railway staff and should be returned after employment

A BR1 key is just a glorified garden shed key, so I doubt it.

 

[simdmuk]

Under the rules for security, it would fall under "work tools". However it would not be "illegal". Some security bods do get a bit worked up about items and activities in a court that are against the rules and interpret these as "illegal" ! The court which I work, uses a variation of a T key to open windows which "only security" are allowed to possess.

 

[43096]

I believe a BR1B key can only be held by railway staff and should be returned after employment

Really? So how does that work on preserved lines, then? That is a perfectly legitimate reason for a person to have a BR1 key (and a T-key for that matter).

 

[bnsf734]

On the dashboard of my 1961 Bristol bus we have several T keys. These are essential to allow us to access the lockers, the boot and the access panels. We bought a new one at a bus rally last year. I don't recall anybody warning me it was illegal to hold one!

 

[bnsf734]

As a "secure" lock I can't imagine a more insecure one!

 

[the sniper]

Because off the top of his head maybe he hasn't memorised every law in the land , as stated is at court so maybe on a short break and hasn't time to look it up and just asking a simple question.

Cant people sometimes just answer questions rather than question every motive behind every question?

Such cynicism on this forum.

Cynicism and legal expertise.

People prosecuting cases (presumably at least familiar with criminal law in general, even if they specialise in something like specific forms of fraud or such like) wouldn't normally need to ask a rail enthusiast focused internet forum whether a bog standard security guard has a better understanding of the law than them... Adlington might have openly questioned it, but he wouldn't have been alone finding it odd.

Kingqueen has subsequently stated though that he primarily wanted an outlet to express his incredulity about it happening, which makes more sense!

 

[infobleep]

Most people who work in security are quite frankly not the brightest bulb in the box and blithely make up stuff to justify their (mis)deeds.

My son, who's an airline pilot, was chided by these people for having a bottle of water in his bag when passing through security to board the flight he was working, and the guy went on and on about cockpit crew setting an example.

My son told him that he has an axe in the cockpit and didn't need a bottle of water should he decide to bring the plane down.

What did the security guard say to that? Did he ask to have the axe confiscated or did he simply say something like the plane is nothing to do with me but taking that bottle of water through is so no or perhaps if you don't comply with my request then I will have to call the police.

 

[philthetube]

Ignoring the guff about whether or not they are legal ( my gas meter also can be accessed using a T key) how on earth does a security guard at a court of law know what such keys are?

Thats the first question which crossed my mind

I have had a J door Key, (something similar on the underground) taken from me when I visited the passport office, but was given it back when I left. The notice said no tools but keys were ok.

 

[185]

I'm not a lawyer... In any case, as others have said, what's wrong with asking? Sheesh.

Actually I was mostly existing incredulity on it being confiscated. Along with my USB fan. I did get it back afterwards though, despite security calling the head of security because they claimed owning a T key is illegal

The only way I could see a T key being possessed in public as illegal would be the physical damage it can do if used as a weapon. I am aware that many years in the past both T key and Bardic lamp have err... "successfully" been used as (defensive) weapons by traincrew whilst being attacked, although this is highly frowned upon nowadays.

 

[Antman]

In a routine security search entering a Court building this morning (I'm prosecuting a case) the security staff confiscated my Carriage, Bell and Heater key on the grounds that they are illegal for members of the public to have. He then called the head of security as a result.

Er, no. There are many places that sell them online, including some that do so with no checks - e.g. https://www.unipartrailexpress.com/product.aspx?66 £5.94 + VAT and delivery, https://www.rivval.com/Product.aspx?p=RP00179/35 €13.37+VAT and delivery.

I use mine to get into our binyard: we had a problem with people dumping rubbish in it (some driven from another town to do so, they left envelopes in it...) and we're all disabled so a conventional key is difficult for many people. A door handle with the handle removed, so to speak, and a nice chunky carriage key that's easy to grip and self locates in the hole, is pretty accessible whilst still forming a basic barrier / inconvenience to fly tippers.

If I was to use the key to access things on the railway (which of course I don't) that would be different, or for that matter if I used it as some form of knuckle duster... But just possessing one can't be illegal, surely?

Mind you, the same security once confiscated our (female) barrister's safety razor (she'd stayed at a local hotel overnight) as a potential offensive weapon, and also my USB-powered fan...

I can't see why they would be illegal? He might have questioned the need to bring such items into the court? So long as they were looked after and returned to you when you left the building surely it's not a big deal?

 

[rebmcr]

So long as they were looked after and returned to you when you left the building surely it's not a big deal?

Well apparently, Security Guard Of The Month tried to get his boss to authorise a permanent confiscation.

 

[Jonfun]

I can understand them not wanting it in court, to be honest. It does make a very good weapon. But to suggest it's illegal to own is clearly nonsense.