Holyhead to Crewe 25kv

[voyagerdude220]

Also, is 390 033 City of Glasgow repaired and back in service yet? It is now six months after the Grayrigg derailment.

No, I know that the very front carriage or two involved in the derailment have definately been written off. I've heard that some of the least damaged centre carriages maybe fully repaired and put back into service, in a long while, but i'm not sure on the returning carriages.

 

[me123]

No, I know that the very front carriage or two involved in the derailment have definately been written off. I've heard that some of the least damaged centre carriages maybe fully repaired and put back into service, in a long while, but i'm not sure on the returning carriages.

So what's going to happen; can they reopen prodcustion for the front so many carriages?

 

[voyagerdude220]

So what's going to happen; can they reopen prodcustion for the front so many carriages?

I doubt very much that they're going to reopen the production line, but think that they may repair the least damaged carriages, and put them back with another Pendo set, in the future. How long will it take?

Well i doubt they'll be a quick fix by any means, and considering it was a high speed derailment, i doubt they'll be in service this year.

(Although i don't work for Alstom)

 

[CosherB]

I understand they are using a hired-in class 90 and mk111s on the Birmingham service as stand-in for the missing Pendo. Sounds like they need to re-open production to restore 'City of Glasgow', build a spare set, and enough trailers to stregthen all the sets up to 12 coaches.

In my dreams!

 

[voyagerdude220]

I remember a chap on a Voyager between Preston and Glasgow, whilst running over the S&C, telling me that his friend who works for VT at Meridian control (or a name like that), told him that VXC were planning on using:

Two sets of 57+ MK2/3's + 57 (T&T) between Birmingham and Edinburgh.

With One starting northbound from Birmingham, running via the WCML, and arriving Edinburgh Waverley as normal from the Haymarket direction. It would then continue back to Birmingham, but this time continuing forwards, via the ECML.

(And the other sets doing the same, but in reverse)

This was on the very first day of diversions (31st March 2007), and sounded like to me that he was trying to fool me, although he did seem to have worked for VT before, as the TM knew him well.

I understand they are using a hired-in class 90 and mk111s on the Birmingham service as stand-in for the missing Pendo. Sounds like they need to re-open production to restore 'City of Glasgow', build a spare set, and enough trailers to stregthen all the sets up to 12 coaches.

In my dreams!

 

[paul1609]

I doubt very much that they're going to reopen the production line, but think that they may repair the least damaged carriages, and put them back with another Pendo set, in the future. How long will it take?

Well i doubt they'll be a quick fix by any means, and considering it was a high speed derailment, i doubt they'll be in service this year.

(Although i don't work for Alstom)

Roger Ford reckons this is the current situation;
"Four coaches were written off in the derailment of Pendolino 390.033
at Grayrigg. Damage to the other vehicles can be repaired by cutting out the
effected areas and welding in new sections of extrusion, but the insurers now
reckon the whole train is a write-off.


Replacement of 033 depends on the Alstom production line reopening to
built the 106 cars needed to lengthen the Pendolinos from 9 to 11 cars.
The bad news is that following the failure of negotiations to extend
the franchise to cover the operational risks associated with the
lengthening work, Virgin has now withdrawn from the lengthening project."

 

[CosherB]

The bad news is that following the failure of negotiations to extend
the franchise to cover the operational risks associated with the
lengthening work, Virgin has now withdrawn from the lengthening project."

Let's hope that is just a negotiating tactic, and they will be back to the table soon to hammer out a deal on replacing 033 and lengthening the fleet.

CS

 

[paul1609]

Not according to Virgin. The extension project has little to benefit them in the remaining franchise term. Any losses from 033 are the total responsibility of network rail.

 

[class 313]

Does this mean the 90 set gets to be out for longer

 

[Death]

Hail All!
Insted of OHLEing the North Wales Coast line, wouldn't it be cheaper, faster and more economical to build and add APT-style Diesel generator cars to a 390 trainset that would only be started and driven on once the train had reached Chester?

If I'm thinking rightly, a single HST powercar built to a similar design as a 370's could generate more than enough electricity to keep a Pendolino going. Although it would recreate the access problems of the APT by effectively isolating one end car, that car could be used for either baggage/cycles, or as a section for passengers only going one or two stops who wouldn't need buffet facilities.

Addendum:
Just to visuallise what I'm going on about (And to show that I have wayyy too much time on my hands! ) I've drawn up a short Pendo rake with an HST-style power car in it: Take a peek here! (Caution - Size is 2609x95 pixels!)
This can only be seen if you're logged in to the board though.

The biggest problem that they would face in OHLEing the North Wales line (Apart from heavy local opposition) would be the many R.L. Stephenson structures along the line, which (Obviously) were never designed with OHLE in mind. Three major headaches that I can forsee are:

• Conwy tubular bridge,
• Conwy town wall arch (Most trains clear part of the arch by scant inches!),
• Penmaenbach tunnel (The roof of which is mostly supported by earthed iron beams.)

To say nothing of the numerous wrought iron station foot-bridges (I'm thinking mainly of the one at LLanfairpwll here) that only leave about a foot of clearance above C1 gauge. :eek:

In all honesty, the idea of electrifying the North Wales Coast line is a good one for the most part...But given the high number of tunnels and other listed low clearance structures along the route, I think they'd have to take a leaf out of Southern Region's book and use TRE as opposed to OHLE (Which also means modding the Pendo fleet with third rail shoes!) in this case.

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[tubenutter]

I suspect that when VWC inherit some Voyagers with the fall of VXC later in the year, the class 90s will again be redundant.

Speaking of using voyagers on VWC... whenever I go between London and Rugby on a Holyhead-bound voyager, the train is absolutely packed (obviously due to the fact that a 4/5 car train is being used on a route which usually has 9 car trains). My dad tells me he again experienced this problem just today. Why can't VWC run this as a double Voyager service?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Why can't VWC run this as a double Voyager service?

What about the far bigger amount of very busy peak time VXC Voyagers???

 

[Tom]

What about the far bigger amount of very busy peak time VXC Voyagers???

Because they like First Class to get busy so people can't get seats

In all seriousness - the majority of lines can't really do 2 units. Bournemouth line certainly has a requirement that if there are 9 or more coaches then Virgin Control must be contacted before proceeding beyond Reading.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Bournemouth line certainly has a requirement that if there are 9 or more coaches then Virgin Control must be contacted before proceeding beyond Reading.

Why does control need to be contacted?

I was on the 14:46 Bournemouth to Dunbar yesterday, and it was heavily overcrowded Reading-Birmingham N St, even though it was 5-car 221127, although I had a seat all the way.

 

[tubenutter]

Surely if the line can handle a 9 car pendolino (plus locomotive) it can handle a 4 + 5 double voyager?

And could one of the units perhaps be removed at Crewe or somewhere (where the service becomes less busy) and then be returned for use on VXC?

 

[Bonemaster]

I would have thought that with climate change being such a universally important political issue right now - coupled with the record price of oil (recently over the $78/barrel mark) - there would have been a great deal of impetus for electrification projects. If the project were ever to come to fruition, then VT4 would be London Euston-Dublin Heuston! It would also mean that Eire is linked to continental Europe when the CTRL is completed.

The price of oil has other sensitivities, anybody paying gas or electric bills over the last 2 years will be well aware of the consistent price rises, and coal fired power generators are hedging there bets by buying very little coal at the moment hoping that the price goes down.

Modern diesel engines are comparable to electric engines in terms of efficiency and you dont need to spend all of the money to build the infrastructure.

It is a little naive to mention climate change given the fact that 2% of electricity is currently renewable and that most comes from burning of coal, gas or oil, and that a decision on nuclear power is some years away yet, given all of these facts I would say that any chance of any further electrification is some years away, until either sound green credentials can be realised or there are significant advances in the efficiency of electric traction engines.

 

[me123]

Aren't there also plans to run trains from Glasgow to Belfast over (wait for it) a bridge? I'm sure I read it in a newspaper.

Anyway, both projects have a key flaw: isn't the track guage in Ireland different to that in the UK?

 

[class 313]

Aren't there also plans to run trains from Glasgow to Belfast over (wait for it) a bridge? I'm sure I read it in a newspaper.

Anyway, both projects have a key flaw: isn't the track guage in Ireland different to that in the UK?

Not IIRC as they use MK2s and 3s, they also use what look to be 158s...

 

[Bonemaster]

Not IIRC as they use MK2s and 3s, they also use what look to be 158s...

Yes but they are reguaged to 5ft 3" and we use 4ft 8 1/2"

 

[class 313]

Yes but they are reguaged to 5ft 3" and we use 4ft 8 1/2"

Oh, ok. Thanks for that

 

[djw1981]

Would this be the first electrification in Wales? and thus allow ATW to get some EMU's?

 

[86242]

Would this be the first electrification in Wales? and thus allow ATW to get some EMU's?

If money was to be spent on electrifying a line to wales it would make more sense to do paddington to cardiff which has about 50 times the number of passengers per day...

 

[CosherB]

If money was to be spent on electrifying a line to wales it would make more sense to do paddington to cardiff which has about 50 times the number of passengers per day...

Agreed - and Paddington - Bristol and Penzance. The west of England main line is the only one still not electrified.

Someone said diesels are as efficient as electrics - how can that possibly be? Diesels have to transport a power station or two (HST) around with them - a big heavy engine, generator, cooling group, tanks of fuel, as well as the traction motors. A modern electric train has only the traction motors and some lightweight control gear.

It has to be more efficient to generate the power centrally and feed it into the national grid for the trains to use, than to have lots of little powerstations on the trains, even taking into account power loses in the transmission cables. And then factor in regenerative braking, so trains slowing down or running downhill can generate power for those accellerating or climbing a gradient - that has to be better!

 

[Bonemaster]

Agreed - and Paddington - Bristol and Penzance. The west of England main line is the only one still not electrified.

Someone said diesels are as efficient as electrics - how can that possibly be? Diesels have to transport a power station or two (HST) around with them - a big heavy engine, generator, cooling group, tanks of fuel, as well as the traction motors. A modern electric train has only the traction motors and some lightweight control gear.

It has to be more efficient to generate the power centrally and feed it into the national grid for the trains to use, than to have lots of little powerstations on the trains, even taking into account power loses in the transmission cables. And then factor in regenerative braking, so trains slowing down or running downhill can generate power for those accellerating or climbing a gradient - that has to be better!

2 reasons one you have touched upon

1) every yard of wire looses power and thus becomes less efficient, this is a fact, and as many advances as you have with diesel engines this is pure science and can not be avoided

2) Over recent years there has been a significant drive, with high oil costs to make diesel engines more efficient not just from a railway perspective but from automotive, shipping, and in aviation. To demonstrate my point my 18 year old car does around 37mpg a similar new car same engine size same manufacturer does 49mpg, making a 25% efficiency increase.

With the pure financial muscle that all the industries have efficiency has been increased, from a significant advantage in favour of electric traction to a marginal one, of which the cost of putting up all of those pylons and wires outweighs.

 

[CosherB]

Sorry, Bonemaster, have to disagree.

Power is lost in the cables from the power station, but most of it is at 400KV, so low current and minimum losses.

I fully accept that modern diesel engines are far more efficient than 18 year old ones. However, one steam turbine plant in a powerstation is infinately more efficient than several hundred seperate relatively small diesel/alternator sets that you have when operating individual diesel powered trains. If you do as the Fench do (and we will have to soon when we wake up to reality) and power your steam turbine from nuclear energy, it's very cheap to build into your power station the extra capacity to run the railway.

And you save a heck of a lot of weight to carry around by having your power generation ashore, rather than carting it, its fuel, and its cooling system around with you on board.

And then there's regenerative braking. Not to mention much higher ultimate power (like the Pendos - far more powerful than any diesel). Can you imagine the French using heavy diesel on TGV - or the japanese doing it for Bullet trains?

Not for nothing are ultra high speed trains electric.

It's the way to go, and it's a scandal that major routes in UK are still powered by noisy, smelly, environmentally unfriendly, and slow diesel trains. It's only because we have such short-term petrolhead politicians in UK that bthey avoid the neccessary investment electrification requires in the infrastructure. They are small men with even smaller minds!

CS

 

[Bonemaster]

A quick google came up with evidence from a study conducted for Indian Railways this states that for 1 million Calories of energy this will give you 22 electric km as opposed to 30 diesel train km based on modern traction, this is primarily due to power loss in generation and transport. Further investigation even shows this as extending to the united states.

I do not dispute that for high speed (i.e. speeds in excess of 125mph) rail travel that electric traction wins hands down but the size and population density of this country mean that this is bye and large not a realistic preposition.

An awful lot is made of regenerative braking but what percentage of what is taken is returned.

To be fair I can see very strong arguments for the GWML and the power argument certainly stands up, and will on high density routes, however beyond that until the economics change electrification of lower density and lower speed lines is nothing more than pie in the sky.

The transmission loss even at high voltages is not small the last estimate being 7.8% of all power leaving the power station is lost before it reaches the sub-stations, take into account what is lost at source and the efficiency of engines and transmissions, or even lost in the overhead cables and the loss becomes significant

 

[CosherB]

It's really main lines I'm talking about, where speeds should be over 125mph if cab signalling was used, a la TGV and Eurostar. Like the WCML was meant to be. :roll:

If we have mostly nuclear power in the future (like the French do - because windmills only work when the wind blows and you can't economically store electric power) then electrification of pretty much the whole network makes sense.