Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

Dore and Totley really needs a second hourly train to Sheffield and a (peak time at least) through service to Leeds, neither of which would be achieved with a station on the south curve.

You've gone and hit a nerve there!

Thanks to the very poor service to and from Sheffield, not even hourly outbound from the city, and the good fast services to Manchester at commuting times pre-Covid, passenger numbers from Dore & Totley before 8.30 were 44% to Manchester, 22% to Sheffield and 11% to Leeds. Currently all are very much lower than 18 months ago, to Manchester and Leeds possibly just over 25% of back then. Sheffield may be slightly better.

In 1938 this was the Dore to Sheffield timetable. Trains back then were well used, but they could stop at 4 platforms on both mainlines.

 

[Llandudno]

Looking at the two large lift shafts, presumably the station will have to be staffed from first to last train in case there is a problem with the lifts?

 

[Killingworth]

Looking at the two large lift shafts, presumably the station will have to be staffed from first to last train in case there is a problem with the lifts?

Not so, that requirement no longer applies. If a lift doesn't work it will be stairs (lots of them) or get next train to next station, cross there, and come back. Dore hasn't been staffed since about 1969.

Interesting times ahead!

 

[palmersears]

Is there a timetable in place yet for when line poessions will begin from? I vaguely remember a rough plan being discussed in this thread a while back but wondered if anything firmer had been published?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a timetable in place yet for when line poessions will begin from? I vaguely remember a rough plan being discussed in this thread a while back but wondered if anything firmer had been published?

Published, as in to the public, not really.

But there's lots of planning going on behind the scenes, as with all such upgrades. Operators need to be consulted a long time in advance about proposed blockades.

 

[edwin_m]

You've gone and hit a nerve there!

Thanks to the very poor service to and from Sheffield, not even hourly outbound from the city, and the good fast services to Manchester at commuting times pre-Covid, passenger numbers from Dore & Totley before 8.30 were 44% to Manchester, 22% to Sheffield and 11% to Leeds. Currently all are very much lower than 18 months ago, to Manchester and Leeds possibly just over 25% of back then. Sheffield may be slightly better.

In 1938 this was the Dore to Sheffield timetable. Trains back then were well used, but they could stop at 4 platforms on both mainlines.

View attachment 101197

There's also a very frequent bus service into Sheffield from the road just outside, which has the advantage of actually serving the centre of Sheffield and the residential areas around the station, most of both being a significant uphill walk from the railway. This means for most people the bus is a better option for travelling into Sheffield, and still would be even if the train service improved to the maximum credible frequency of about every 30min. The road to Dore is one of the few in Sheffield where more bus priority could be provided relatively easily to improve that service further. The train operator probably doesn't want commuters filling up their train for a few minutes of a much longer journey, when they won't be able to get down and collect fares much of the time anyway.

So there are some good reasons why the train isn't going to be much use for commuting into Sheffield. This would only change if the service became very intensive, probably in the form of a tramway which could better serve actual origins and destinations at both ends of the journey. The equation is very different for commuting into Manchester, where the much longer journey and absence of alternatives makes the inconvenience of getting to and from the station and the low service frequency less of an obstacle.

 

[lincolnshire]

Not so, that requirement no longer applies. If a lift doesn't work it will be stairs (lots of them) or get next train to next station, cross there, and come back. Dore hasn't been staffed since about 1969.

Interesting times ahead!

Usually these days they have CCTV cameras in the lifts to see whats going on and are able to switch them off at night remotely, same as been able to scan the cameras remotely to see whats happening at the station.

 

[Killingworth]

Published, as in to the public, not really.

But there's lots of planning going on behind the scenes, as with all such upgrades. Operators need to be consulted a long time in advance about proposed blockades.

TOCs were given a very detailed anticipated schedule last October. At that stage the contractors hadn't identified precise details of the work - and the weather hasn't planned anything yet. No doubt there will be some changes as work progresses.

 

[Llandudno]

Not so, that requirement no longer applies. If a lift doesn't work it will be stairs (lots of them) or get next train to next station, cross there, and come back. Dore hasn't been staffed since about 1969.

Interesting times ahead!

Why are the lifts switched off at Hazel Grove station at 2030 each evening and are closed off all day on Sundays?

Presumably because the station is unstaffed?

 

[jonnyfan]

Why are the lifts switched off at Hazel Grove station at 2030 each evening and are closed off all day on Sundays?

Presumably because the station is unstaffed?

That used to be the case up until about a year ago. Previously if the alarm was sounded in the lift it only alerted the station staff on duty, now the lifts are remotely monitored so they can be in service at all times. Though I don't think any of the signs which list the old operating hours of the lifts have been removed.

 

[Killingworth]

Why are the lifts switched off at Hazel Grove station at 2030 each evening and are closed off all day on Sundays?

Presumably because the station is unstaffed?

Fair question. The staffing point was brought up at the 2016 public inquiry. It was answered basically as I set out above at Post 905 so the rules must have changed some time ago. Seems to have taken some time to filter through to stations with existing lifts. Possibly not designed with CCTV?

To the East and South the hills rise steeply to 170m+ and to the West less steeply to 400m+ (and even to the north 150m+).
Bradway, Dore South and Totley tunnels are there for a reason.
Probably no sunshine at all for most of the year.

To illustrate the sunshine factor, here's a Youtube video today taken from roughly the position of the future west side footbridge lift tower at Dore. The platforms are to be extended almost to the position of the signal, originally positioned at the end of the original platforms demolished in 1985. See;

"West Country Class, No. 34046 ‘Braunton’ on Saphos Trains "White Rose" from Wolverhampton to York running 4 minutes early and checked at Totley Tunnel East accelerates through Dore after receiving an amber light." Volunteers from the Sheffield and District Society of Model and Experimental Engineers site across the road took time off to watch the train.

 

[unlevel42]

To illustrate the sunshine factor, here's a Youtube video today taken from roughly the position of the future west side footbridge lift tower at Dore. The platforms are to be extended almost to the position of the signal, originally positioned at the end of the original platforms demolished in 1985. See;

"West Country Class, No. 34046 ‘Braunton’ on Saphos Trains "White Rose" from Wolverhampton to York running 4 minutes early and checked at Totley Tunnel East accelerates through Dore after receiving an amber light." Volunteers from the Sheffield and District Society of Model and Experimental Engineers site across the road took time off to watch the train.

Solar solutions depend on storage to provide power when required.
To repeat, length of exposure to high light levels is more important than a few hours of direct sunlight in winter.

In valley bottoms the demand is higher for a longer time.
In valley bottoms the supply is lower for a shorter time.
Therefore the number of panels and the amount of storage must be higher in order to provide a reasonable supply.
As light levels decrease and the length of exposure time decreases the cost enough of enough appropriate panels and storage increases to an uneconomic point.

Even the doggiest salesman would try to make a sale if there were tree covered hills immediately to the West, South and East and a 18/24hr demand.

 

[Killingworth]

Even the doggiest salesman would try to make a sale if there were tree covered hills immediately to the West, South and East and a 18/24hr demand.

I think it's safe to say that even if the south facing roof over the footbridge stairs and walk way were all covered with solar panels it would cost more than the value of the electricity they would produce. I've heard no suggestion that they've been seriously considered for the bridge and doubt they'd be retrofitted. However, it wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years time I'm proved wrong!

 

[Jozhua]

You've gone and hit a nerve there!

Thanks to the very poor service to and from Sheffield, not even hourly outbound from the city, and the good fast services to Manchester at commuting times pre-Covid, passenger numbers from Dore & Totley before 8.30 were 44% to Manchester, 22% to Sheffield and 11% to Leeds. Currently all are very much lower than 18 months ago, to Manchester and Leeds possibly just over 25% of back then. Sheffield may be slightly better.

In 1938 this was the Dore to Sheffield timetable. Trains back then were well used, but they could stop at 4 platforms on both mainlines.

View attachment 101197

I guess that makes sense considering the bus probably ends up being more convenient for trips within Sheffield - obviously most people who live in Dore will work in or visit Sheffield vs Manchester!

I think the main aim should be improving service generally, because I think dore is likely better served by other forms of transport. If a 30 minute frequency was reached between extra local and the occasional extra express services stopping though, I can see that as doing a decent job at increasing ridership in to Sheffield.

Ideally, it would be nice to be able to change directly from trains coming northbound on the MML to a train at Dore towards Manchester/Hope Valley, without needing to go all the way into Sheffield! That would have the added benefit of reducing journey times significantly for people travelling to/from the Midlands, while massively expanding the range of services available to those living in the area of Dore Station. I think that might be a more post-HS2 thing, when a more "regional" service can be run on the existing MML routes, being able to improve connectivity at places like Belper, Long Eaton, Spondon.

 

[WestRiding]

I guess that makes sense considering the bus probably ends up being more convenient for trips within Sheffield - obviously most people who live in Dore will work in or visit Sheffield vs Manchester!

I think the main aim should be improving service generally, because I think dore is likely better served by other forms of transport. If a 30 minute frequency was reached between extra local and the occasional extra express services stopping though, I can see that as doing a decent job at increasing ridership in to Sheffield.

Ideally, it would be nice to be able to change directly from trains coming northbound on the MML to a train at Dore towards Manchester/Hope Valley, without needing to go all the way into Sheffield! That would have the added benefit of reducing journey times significantly for people travelling to/from the Midlands, while massively expanding the range of services available to those living in the area of Dore Station. I think that might be a more post-HS2 thing, when a more "regional" service can be run on the existing MML routes, being able to improve connectivity at places like Belper, Long Eaton, Spondon.

You mentioned HS2 .Cant see that happening now.

 

[Killingworth]

I guess that makes sense considering the bus probably ends up being more convenient for trips within Sheffield - obviously most people who live in Dore will work in or visit Sheffield vs Manchester!

I think the main aim should be improving service generally, because I think dore is likely better served by other forms of transport. If a 30 minute frequency was reached between extra local and the occasional extra express services stopping though, I can see that as doing a decent job at increasing ridership in to Sheffield.

Ideally, it would be nice to be able to change directly from trains coming northbound on the MML to a train at Dore towards Manchester/Hope Valley, without needing to go all the way into Sheffield! That would have the added benefit of reducing journey times significantly for people travelling to/from the Midlands, while massively expanding the range of services available to those living in the area of Dore Station. I think that might be a more post-HS2 thing, when a more "regional" service can be run on the existing MML routes, being able to improve connectivity at places like Belper, Long Eaton, Spondon.

Dore was an interchange from local Derby trains to local Hope Valley trains until the 1960s, but not MML express trains.

Reinstating the MML platforms has been considered. It's feasible, of course, but stopping all services would wreck times for expresses and only a few would be too expensive to be worth the investment. Potential HS2 provision makes MML platform reinstatement very unlikely, although the forthcoming work is supposed to be compatible.

It currently takes 6 or 7 minutes from Dore into Sheffiekd by not even hourly train. That's particularly bad in the evenings when those returning from longer journeys don't have practical connections back to Dore.. Taxi is the usual alternative for travellers from anywhere but Manchester.

There are 7 buses an hour into the city, but they take nearer half an hour and can be less comfortable than even standing on a train! At least 2 trains every hour would be expected at similar suburban stations in other cities.

Congestion down the Sheaf Valley's current 2 tracks into Sheffield is crucial. It was quadrupled until the 1970/80s but HS2 calls for only 3. MML electrification will concentrate minds with long term effects across the network. Recently surveyors for that may have been spotted around Dore.

 

[Class 170101]

I guess that makes sense considering the bus probably ends up being more convenient for trips within Sheffield - obviously most people who live in Dore will work in or visit Sheffield vs Manchester!

I think the main aim should be improving service generally, because I think dore is likely better served by other forms of transport. If a 30 minute frequency was reached between extra local and the occasional extra express services stopping though, I can see that as doing a decent job at increasing ridership in to Sheffield.

Ideally, it would be nice to be able to change directly from trains coming northbound on the MML to a train at Dore towards Manchester/Hope Valley, without needing to go all the way into Sheffield! That would have the added benefit of reducing journey times significantly for people travelling to/from the Midlands, while massively expanding the range of services available to those living in the area of Dore Station. I think that might be a more post-HS2 thing, when a more "regional" service can be run on the existing MML routes, being able to improve connectivity at places like Belper, Long Eaton, Spondon.

Not sure HS2 will help with that as it was planning on using the existing route into Sheffield from Chesterfield direction.

 

[Jozhua]

Dore was an interchange from local Derby trains to local Hope Valley trains until the 1960s, but not MML express trains.

Reinstating the MML platforms has been considered. It's feasible, of course, but stopping all services would wreck times for expresses and only a few would be too expensive to be worth the investment. Potential HS2 provision makes MML platform reinstatement very unlikely, although the forthcoming work is supposed to be compatible.

It currently takes 6 or 7 minutes from Dore into Sheffiekd by not even hourly train. That's particularly bad in the evenings when those returning from longer journeys don't have practical connections back to Dore.. Taxi is the usual alternative for travellers from anywhere but Manchester.

There are 7 buses an hour into the city, but they take nearer half an hour and can be less comfortable than even standing on a train! At least 2 trains every hour would be expected at similar suburban stations in other cities.

Congestion down the Sheaf Valley's current 2 tracks into Sheffield is crucial. It was quadrupled until the 1970/80s but HS2 calls for only 3. MML electrification will concentrate minds with long term effects across the network. Recently surveyors for that may have been spotted around Dore.

In my opinion, HS2 should either build proper high speed segregation into the city centre, or not run any services into Sheffield city centre, instead offering a fast & frequent shuttle to the Meadowhall interchange.

Sheffield station is going to be a perticular thorn in the side for getting better/faster service on the Hope Valley, especially as the extra express is likely going to have to crawl into and back out of, Sheffield station, which adds a decent chunk to the journey times. Frankly the throat needs ripping out and re-doing, but until there is a concrete plan as to what service patterns in 10-20 years will look like, then it's going to be hard to do. Derby was relatively easy to seperate out, you had XC Scotland-SouthEast services on 1/2, XC Notts-Brum/Cardiff and EMT Derby/Crewe services on 3/4, then Sheffield/London and Matlock/Notts services on 5/6/7, all going out to the corresponding different lines. Sheffield Midland however, has a bit more of a complicated mess of services from what I can see. If there are ways of grouping these in to certain platforms so they get the most efficient path through, then I think that would be of the most benefit to the station.

Absolutely agree on quad-tracking Sheaf Valley and getting at the very least twice hourly service to Dore.

Not sure HS2 will help with that as it was planning on using the existing route into Sheffield from Chesterfield direction.

There will be a station at Meadowhall, that will at the very least handle what is now the XC services.

 

[Killingworth]

Absolutely agree on quad-tracking Sheaf Valley and getting at the very least twice hourly service to Dore.

There's a separate thread for the Sheaf Valley. Suffice to say the Tesco superstore built about 1995 on the old trackbed between the two Archer Road bridges makes that all but impossible.. Without rebuilding the store and a few other businesses there's only room for 3.

 

[edwin_m]

In my opinion, HS2 should either build proper high speed segregation into the city centre, or not run any services into Sheffield city centre, instead offering a fast & frequent shuttle to the Meadowhall interchange.

Sheffield station is going to be a perticular thorn in the side for getting better/faster service on the Hope Valley, especially as the extra express is likely going to have to crawl into and back out of, Sheffield station, which adds a decent chunk to the journey times. Frankly the throat needs ripping out and re-doing, but until there is a concrete plan as to what service patterns in 10-20 years will look like, then it's going to be hard to do. Derby was relatively easy to seperate out, you had XC Scotland-SouthEast services on 1/2, XC Notts-Brum/Cardiff and EMT Derby/Crewe services on 3/4, then Sheffield/London and Matlock/Notts services on 5/6/7, all going out to the corresponding different lines. Sheffield Midland however, has a bit more of a complicated mess of services from what I can see. If there are ways of grouping these in to certain platforms so they get the most efficient path through, then I think that would be of the most benefit to the station.

Absolutely agree on quad-tracking Sheaf Valley and getting at the very least twice hourly service to Dore.

There will be a station at Meadowhall, that will at the very least handle what is now the XC services.

The ship had sailed on Meadowhall when the council's objections to it persuaded HS2 to change the route, and it turned out to save several billion. If the Eastern leg happens it won't go near either Sheffield or Meadowhall.

You have an inherent conflict between Dore and Sheffield because both routes from the south have significant through service to the north and also significant numbers of trains that terminate, plus the EMR that reverses between the two. Assuming something like today's pattern it would probably help if they kept the through XC and Nottingham-Leeds services to 1 (northbound) and 8 (southbound) out of the way of anything in between. I keep thinking there ought to be a way of getting rid of those assorted through sidings and using the space for another decent through platform or two, but it's difficult to see how without demolishing the P2-5 buildings.

Anyway, that's marginally off-topic except to suggest that a decent set of high-speed crossovers is needed between Dore and Sheffield to sort things out as much as possible where things are moving reasonably fast.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a separate thread for the Sheaf Valley. Suffice to say the Tesco superstore built about 1995 on the old trackbed between the two Archer Road bridges makes that all but impossible.. Without rebuilding the store and a few other businesses there's only room for 3.

To be fair, the big supermarket chains seem happy to demolish and rebuild their shops quite often. There was one in my home town that seemed newish in the 90's and was rebuilt bigger around ten years ago.

 

[Killingworth]

To be fair, the big supermarket chains seem happy to demolish and rebuild their shops quite often. There was one in my home town that seemed newish in the 90's and was rebuilt bigger around ten years ago.

It needs heads cracking together. That store will need a revamp within 10 years, surely. Build a new one, starting on stilts above the old trackbed and on the all but unused park and ride site. Just needs driving, but there's no driver.

 

[Glenn1969]

It needs heads cracking together. That store will need a revamp within 10 years, surely. Build a new one, starting on stilts above the old trackbed and on the all but unused park and ride site. Just needs driving, but there's no driver.

Unfortunately at Archer Road there are stores at both sides of the railway. Surely they won't both be revamped at the same time ?

 

[Killingworth]

Unfortunately at Archer Road there are stores at both sides of the railway. Surely they won't both be revamped at the same time ?

Saonsburys isn't built on the old track bed!

 

[Class 170101]

It needs heads cracking together. That store will need a revamp within 10 years, surely. Build a new one, starting on stilts above the old trackbed and on the all but unused park and ride site. Just needs driving, but there's no driver.

All I'll say is look what happened at Gerrards Cross before you suggest that one

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything else (such as HS2) please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing thread (if there is one).

Any speculative posts belong in the Speculative Ideas section please.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m a bit confused by the Hope Valley capacity scheme. What is it seeking to achieve? How fast will journeys between Manchester & Sheffield be? How many more trains per hour can be accommodated?

 

[Killingworth]

I’m a bit confused by the Hope Valley capacity scheme. What is it seeking to achieve? How fast will journeys between Manchester & Sheffield be? How many more trains per hour can be accommodated?

It will increase the capacity of the route.

It will enable the same number of freight paths to operate with easier access along the Hope Valley and out onto the MML. Note that there are currently many freight paths booked but unused. It's access to and from the Hope Valley line and then the MML when any train is delayed that has knock on effects across the country.

Originally it was envisaged that the scheme would provide two extra fast passenger paths per hour but a third loop at Chinley has been removed from the original plan because it wouldn't be possible to provide the parhs into Manchester in particular, and Sheffield. It should now allow a path for a third fast service, and to permit the stopping service to stop at all stations every hour - currently there are many skip stops and it's not a regular hourly service.

Speed of services is interesting. It won't in itself help trains go appreciably faster anywhere along the route that will deliver a faster journey time. However it should improve reliability of existing journey times. Timetabling depends on interweaving a vast web of conflicting services nationwide.

The fast services face delays beyond the Hope Valley. With better rolling stock, some further line improvements and knitting in with all those other routes converging on Sheffield and Manchester it may be possible to cut up to 5 minutes from end to end journey times. More important for many users is that reliability improves so connections can be better guaranteed. Adding an extra hourly service over the core will also add a safety net when any of the others is severely delayed or cancelled, something that happens too often at present.

 

[Purple Orange]

It will increase the capacity of the route.

It will enable the same number of freight paths to operate with easier access along the Hope Valley and out onto the MML. Note that there are currently many freight paths booked but unused. It's access to and from the Hope Valley line and then the MML when any train is delayed that has knock on effects across the country.

Originally it was envisaged that the scheme would provide two extra fast passenger paths per hour but a third loop at Chinley has been removed from the original plan because it wouldn't be possible to provide the parhs into Manchester in particular, and Sheffield. It should now allow a path for a third fast service, and to permit the stopping service to stop at all stations every hour - currently there are many skip stops and it's not a regular hourly service.

Speed of services is interesting. It won't in itself help trains go appreciably faster anywhere along the route that will deliver a faster journey time. However it should improve reliability of existing journey times. Timetabling depends on interweaving a vast web of conflicting services nationwide.

The fast services face delays beyond the Hope Valley. With better rolling stock, some further line improvements and knitting in with all those other routes converging on Sheffield and Manchester it may be possible to cut up to 5 minutes from end to end journey times. More important for many users is that reliability improves so connections can be better guaranteed. Adding an extra hourly service over the core will also add a safety net when any of the others is severely delayed or cancelled, something that happens too often at present.

Cheers

 

[td97]

Speed of services is interesting. It won't in itself help trains go appreciably faster anywhere along the route that will deliver a faster journey time. However it should improve reliability of existing journey times. Timetabling depends on interweaving a vast web of conflicting services nationwide.

A whole component of the scheme is "journey time improvement". Between Hazel Grove and Edgeley there's a 20mph speed increase and other pockets of the route will see 5 or 10 mph increases.

it may be possible to cut up to 5 minutes from end to end journey times

But your 5 minute time saving is probably correct as some sections will see a speed reduction to even out peaks in the line speed profile.