Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Northerngirl]

The refuge is to satisfy a regulatory requirement, not because of a planning/modelling recommendation.

The issue is the regulations are seemingly written by someone who exclusively travels by private helicopter, with no basis in how a human being would act in an emergency situation

 

[zwk500]

The issue is the regulations are seemingly written by someone who exclusively travels by private helicopter, with no basis in how a human being would act in an emergency situation

Indeed, and I'm trying to direct criticism at the regulators, not the modellers!

 

[Trainman40083]

Just describing what people actually do, as opposed to what the computer model says they should do.

When trains are stuck for more than a couple of hours, they get out and walk along the tracks, even 3rd rail.

When councils build footpaths through a park that zig-zag and meander all over the place because it looks pretty, the people walk in a straight line across the grass, wearing it away and creating a mud path.

These planners/designers never take into account real life human behaviour.

Very true

 

[themiller]

Someone, somewhere hasn’t done their homework. A risk assessment should have been done and the cost of mitigations can be used to set against the benefits of having to provide them. It sounds on the surface of it that no one has calculated the cost per prevented fatality.
On the whole of the network, how many people have perished when a refuge and fire Marshall’s could have saved them? How many injuries have occurred that could have been prevented or reduced by having fire marshals present? Or indeed, how many injuries have been sustained during an incident to fire marshals which happened because they were on site? Did anyone apply for a derogation for this temporary situation and, if so, on what grounds was it refused?

 

[unlevel42]

Most comments have ignored the fifty percent chance that the burning train would be on the northbound, station and exit side, Platform 2. The normally very few people waiting on Platform 1 would move away from the fire and could easily move toward and be accommodated in the refuge.

In the scenario that a fully laden train would be afire on the 'island' Platform 1, the vast majority of the panicking, exiting passengers who would not see any signs and people would flee either north or south along the platform 1.
There is no safe area or exit to the South from platform 1 with a very high chance that in an emergency people would flee onto the MML(bind bend+ abutment), Hope Valley(bind bend+ abutment) or attempt escape by scaling the embankments. A contained area might encourage people to feel safer and stay put.
If people in panic were fleeing northward and got past the platform end fence they would be in a much, much bigger, flatter expanse of ballast area between the converging lines and in panic would have a much better view of approaching rail traffic if they foolishly decided to cross the HV or MML lines

 

[Killingworth]

Most comments have ignored the fifty percent chance that the burning train would be on the northbound, station and exit side, Platform 2. The normally very few people waiting on Platform 1 would move away from the fire and could easily move toward and be accommodated in the refuge.

In the scenario that a fully laden train would be afire on the 'island' Platform 1, the vast majority of the panicking, exiting passengers who would not see any signs and people would flee either north or south along the platform 1.
There is no safe area or exit to the South from platform 1 with a very high chance that in an emergency people would flee onto the MML(bind bend+ abutment), Hope Valley(bind bend+ abutment) or attempt escape by scaling the embankments. A contained area might encourage people to feel safer and stay put.
If people in panic were fleeing northward and got past the platform end fence they would be in a much, much bigger, flatter expanse of ballast area between the converging lines and in panic would have a much better view of approaching rail traffic if they foolishly decided to cross the HV or MML lines

A reasonable assessment. Hopefully there'll never be an emergency situation requiring use of the emergency exits. No picture today but nature is already starting to grow across the southern exit from Platform 2. Yesterday was the safety marshals last day.

The temporary lighting on the footbridge is still lit 24/7 but the permanent lighting was being worked on yesterday. Still many other snagging issues to be fixed around the station.

There's still a lot to do on the retaining walls below Poynton Wood beside the Dore loop. Work is scheduled on piles for next 4 or 5 weekends with much else to finish that section. Completion in 2024 may be challenging but still possible?

The footbridge at Hathersage West is no longer shielded from view but the footpath remains closed. The closure order covers to end of September but there have been suggestions it could be opened this month.

 

[Donny Dave]

Without wading through all 69 pages of this thread, now that Dore to Earles is largely complete, what are the plans to upgrade the route to Hazel Grove and New Mills?

 

[edwin_m]

There's still a lot to do on the retaining walls below Poynton Wood beside the Dore loop. Work is scheduled on piles for next 4 or 5 weekends with much else to finish that section. Completion in 2024 may be challenging but still possible?

I just hope we don't get another spell of wet weather before this is finished. With the wall incomplete the whole lot could come down on the track.

 

[GardenRail]

Without wading through all 69 pages of this thread, now that Dore to Earles is largely complete, what are the plans to upgrade the route to Hazel Grove and New Mills?

In a word. None.

 

[Killingworth]

I just hope we don't get another spell of wet weather before this is finished. With the wall incomplete the whole lot could come down on the track.

It won't come down on the track. It's well anchored already. If it did the weather would have been bad enough to wipe out very many other lines across the country.

 

[syorksdeano]

It won't come down on the track. It's well anchored already. If it did the weather would have been bad enough to wipe out very many other lines across the country.

I can just imagine hundreds of Network Rail contractors running up and down railway lines shouting "it's spitting it's spitting".

 

[Donny Dave]

In a word. None.

Thought that would be the reply, but it does seem strange upgrading headway and capacity on only half the route, then ignoring the rest of it....

 

[eastwestdivide]

What they've done is more about unblocking the bottlenecks round Dore – there are no other single track sections apart from the Hazel Grove chord but that's not so busy as some traffic has already turned off via New Mills and Marple.

 

[edwin_m]

What they've done is more about unblocking the bottlenecks round Dore – there are no other single track sections apart from the Hazel Grove chord but that's not so busy as some traffic has already turned off via New Mills and Marple.

They've also renewed much of the signalling, except for the curious omission of Earles, and increased some speeds including the former trundle between Hazel Grove and Stockport.

 

[LowLevel]

They've also renewed much of the signalling, except for the curious omission of Earles, and increased some speeds including the former trundle between Hazel Grove and Stockport.

Earles isn't that curious, I think the conclusion was that coming up with an alternative efficient means of controlling the exchange sidings is rather difficult so they may as well leave it as is, given it works quite well.

 

[td97]

Without wading through all 69 pages of this thread, now that Dore to Earles is largely complete, what are the plans to upgrade the route to Hazel Grove and New Mills?

In a word. None.

There was a route wide SP to MU conversion. That should be sufficient investment to cover the next decade

 

[Killingworth]

Earles isn't that curious, I think the conclusion was that coming up with an alternative efficient means of controlling the exchange sidings is rather difficult so they may as well leave it as is, given it works quite well.

And the Hope Cement Works is due to close by 2042.

I just hope we don't get another spell of wet weather before this is finished. With the wall incomplete the whole lot could come down on the track.

Picture below taken in light rain shower this afternoon showing progress to date. Don't think there's likely to be any slippage beyond all these piles.

Apparently when the Midland Railway built the line they tried to create a cutting along this section to soften the sound of passing trains for residents of Abbeydale Hall. The owner, Ebenezer Hall, had driven a hard bargain for the part of his land that was needed. His first demand was for the line to go in a tunnel along here. Somehow a lot of old bricks and other rubble was tipped at the bottom of the hill, to the right of the picture. (There's no evidence of an attempt to build a cut and cover tunnel.) By the time the area was surveyed for the current work that had all grassed over and small trees were becoming well established. The potential instability seems to have been missed until soil nailing started.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There was a route wide SP to MU conversion. That should be sufficient investment to cover the next decade

So does that mean TPE's 185s will be able to go as fast as EMR's 158s and 170s on the line?

 

[The Planner]

So does that mean TPE's 185s will be able to go as fast as EMR's 158s and 170s on the line?

185s can't use any differential as they are heavy, unless thats changed.

 

[Killingworth]

185s can't use any differential as they are heavy, unless thats changed.

It's interesting to note that the fastest timings between Sheffield and Manchester are by EMR services. Only by a minute or two, but by the 'slower' units.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

185s can't use any differential as they are heavy, unless thats changed.

Ah I thought they were MU so couldn't use SP, must've confused it with a different discussion about the line (maybe the 222 replacement speculation).

 

[Killingworth]

The scheme in practical operation today.

Freight service 6Z80 0957 Banbury Reservoir Tarmac to Tunstead Sdgs started 22 early and passed Derby 24 early but was reduced to 1 by Duffield and at Dore South was 4 early. Allowed 8.5 minutes to pass Dore West it went straight through to make it 11 early again.

When at Derby RTT showed a projected 30 minutes in the Dore loop, a prospect not at all welcome by neighbouring residents watching to see if they could sit peacefully in the garden this afternoon. (There's a big difference between a train rushing by and one ticking over for half an hour at the bottom of the garden on a sunny afternoon.) It appears to have reached Tunstead on time.

1R68 0955 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street started 24 minutes late from Norwich and was 22 late at Dore South - where it was rerouted to miss out Sheffield altogether and take the loop to Dore West to recover time making it only 4 late at decommissioned Totley Tunnel East box. Fairly good? Not for the EMR service being awaited in Sheffield.

It got stuck behind the freight and reached Chinley North 18 minutes down finally reaching LIverpool 14 late. It might have gone into and out of Sheffield and have arrived in Liverpool very little later.

If the freight had been pulled in at Earles Sidings the EMR train might have overtaken and made up a little more time before Piccadilly. Other freights have done that, and also heritage special services.

It seems the useful Earles loop is very carefully guarded even against other freights.

 

[Geeves]

Presumably EMR control just saw the option of missing out Sheffield and the time saved Vs what's actually ahead on the Hope Valley, would the Earles Sidings signaller be allowed to loop a freight off his own back? I can well imagine they saw it but left it because no one actually rang up, maybe. It happens in my area lots of times where the late express just gets stuck immediately behind the stopper because no one asked for anything to be looped when the option was there.

That's the modern railway isn't it? Unfortunately the signaller isn't allowed much free will or it seems that way.

 

[M60lad]

Why was EMR service rerouted to miss out Sheffield despite it being just over 20 minutes late? Other EMR services that have been 20mins late have still called at Sheffield in the past.

 

[LowLevel]

For delays of that length there are generally control plans to consult.

20 minutes projected delay from Nottingham would often see the inbound service from Norwich cancelled subject to stock being available for a right time restart. 20 minutes delay is also however the threshold for considering avoiding Sheffield, with a comparatively short additional wait for the next TPE service.

20/20 hindsight is a glorious thing but there were lots of problems going on yesterday and the matter will have been decided long before the train reached Chinley or even Dore to allow arrangements to be made. Freight in particular is unpredictable and the train in question was an additional service that doesn't usually exist.

The priority is always attempting to make the path through Manchester or at least a right time start from Liverpool.

If the train had gone to Sheffield it could have also caused further congestion there.

Looping the freight at Earles might have caused other issues later either on the single lines or at the terminal and it involves different control areas too. Getting started again is a slow process up Norman's Bank too.

 

[td97]

Tomorrow brings (possibly) the first timetabled use of the crossover at Grindleford. Services from Piccadilly terminate at P2, then restart in service and use the crossover to the east to access the Down line towards Piccadilly.
Previously, trains would terminate at Edale for any line blockage further east.

 

[Killingworth]

Tomorrow brings (possibly) the first timetabled use of the crossover at Grindleford. Services from Piccadilly terminate at P2, then restart in service and use the crossover to the east to access the Down line towards Piccadilly.
Previously, trains would terminate at Edale for any line blockage further east.

Which is slightly better than last Sunday when the first Northern return service didn't run at all, but not a lot of help for those wanting to get between Sheffield and Manchester. A rail replacement bus takes 35 minutes between Sheffield and Grindleford. A train takes 14.

The Grindleford crossover is being used to reverse Northern trains when there's any problem between there and Sheffield.

Work below Poynton Wood at West View Lane is now expected to run until 12/13th October after machine breakdowns on 3 recent weekends. That's assuming all goes to the latest plan. Demolition of Totley Tunnel East signalbox is in progress.

Last Sunday Northern ran less than 2/3 of their timetabled services on the route. Any benefits from the scheme for passengers are well disguised.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Last Sunday Northern ran less than 2/3 of their timetabled services on the route. Any benefits from the scheme for passengers are well disguised

An improvement in infrastructure does nothing for staff choosing to do overtime or not

 

[eastwestdivide]

Tomorrow brings (possibly) the first timetabled use of the crossover at Grindleford. Services from Piccadilly terminate at P2, then restart in service and use the crossover to the east to access the Down line towards Piccadilly.
Previously, trains would terminate at Edale for any line blockage further east.

Just the first train of the day, and it’s cancelled!

Realtime Trains | Departures from Grindleford between 0830 and 1100 on 22/09/2024

Train information at Grindleford between 0830 and 1100 on 22/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

Just the first train of the day, and it’s cancelled!

Realtime Trains | Departures from Grindleford between 0830 and 1100 on 22/09/2024

Train information at Grindleford between 0830 and 1100 on 22/09/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No surprise there. It's been cancelled more often than not in recent weeks. Northern appear to be operating a regular emergency timetable confirmed the night before. Running 2 diagrams at 4 and 6 car length is no compensation for the third that's missing all day. Especially when 3 would probably be quite adequate on this miserable wet Sunday. But there are subjects for at least 3 other threads in all this!