Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[swt_passenger]

The lifts were only out of action for about 2 weeks. That hasn't been the reason for the safety marshals. It seems that the latest station safety rules required emergency exits at both ends of the old platform (that had managed without for the last 152 years) and a safety refuge at the south end of the new platform in case users were unable to use the bridge. Suggestonss of a hypothetical train on fire from end to end in the station have been made.

The ramped emergency exits are lit with lights concealed in the undersides of the handrails. The emergency refuge is also lit and has PA loudspeakers.

The fact that money could be found for these features somewhat surprises local users who have lost a covered waiting shelter with bench to seat a cosy 10 plus standees without replacement. There is now no covered seating on the old platform (although some perch/squat seats are supposed to compensate). .All that money used to provide for a very unlikely scenario but none for the convenience and comfort of passengers every day.

Yes, as others have suggested it’s the latest standards for secondary means of escape. Reading‘s ‘new’ platforms on the relief side (10 years old?), have steps down to an emergency subway at both ends, and marked refuge areas at both ends for those who can’t use stairs, all in addition to the double sets of normal lifts, escalators, and stairs. Winslow and Bletchley high level on EWR both have refuges, and Winslow has emergency escape stairs up to local ground level as well.

 

[fishwomp]

Yes, as others have suggested it’s the latest standards for secondary means of escape.

Struggling to think of incident in 150 years that could have been helped by this, if they had happened at a station. Quintinshill had multiple carriages on fire. Ladbroke Grove had a big fire in the first carriage and some others. Llangennech/Morlais Jct oil tanker, Summit Tunnel - both massive fires spanning multiple wagons of an oil train.

What strikes me is the railway has frequent single carriage fires, or very big ones.

For the single carriage ones, just move to the other bit of platform.

For the big ones.. you'd be needing a far bigger refuge than that, much further away from the platform and it'd need concrete walls with fire protection and suppression capabilities.. and even then, if the up platform were struck by an asteroid, it would not work.

 

[Trainman40083]

The lifts were only out of action for about 2 weeks. That hasn't been the reason for the safety marshals. It seems that the latest station safety rules required emergency exits at both ends of the old platform (that had managed without for the last 152 years) and a safety refuge at the south end of the new platform in case users were unable to use the bridge. Suggestonss of a hypothetical train on fire from end to end in the station have been made.

The ramped emergency exits are lit with lights concealed in the undersides of the handrails. The emergency refuge is also lit and has PA loudspeakers.

The fact that money could be found for these features somewhat surprises local users who have lost a covered waiting shelter with bench to seat a cosy 10 plus standees without replacement. There is now no covered seating on the old platform (although some perch/squat seats are supposed to compensate). .All that money used to provide for a very unlikely scenario but none for the convenience and comfort of passengers every day.

I can understand the need for safety marshalls if a train were to catch fire. Members of the public would stand far too close filming it on their mobiles, rather than use a suitable alternative escape route

 

[Killingworth]

I can understand the need for safety marshalls if a train were to catch fire. Members of the public would stand far too close filming it on their mobiles, rather than use a suitable alternative escape route

As they almost certainly would when the precautions are complete and the marshals withdrawn! Subject now heading for a new thread?

 

[Trainman40083]

As they almost certainly would when the precautions are complete and the marshals withdrawn! Subject now heading for a new thread?

I just think I won't get off at Dore, and leave it there. Reet strange .

 

[Meerkat]

Soooo…..if there is no refuge and a train catches fire the length of the platform what are the marshals there for - just to call the right person to get the trains stopped (is this hypothetical on fire trained unmanned??!)

 

[zwk500]

As they almost certainly would when the precautions are complete and the marshals withdrawn! Subject now heading for a new thread?

Quite Possibly a new thread, but in the meantime here's some background reading for anybody interested in understanding why the refuge is provided:

Previous thread:

Station Platform evacuation safe refuge areas - eg Cambridge North

I am aware of Platform Evacuation Safety Refuges at both Cambridge North and Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway. Hopefully something that is never used, but at the same time an essential/mandatory? safety feature of New Station Design where escape by normal routes could be restricted. Has been on my...

www.railforums.co.uk

NR Design document: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co.../NR_GN_CIV_300_03_Fire-Safety-at-Stations.pdf
This document specifies Refuges as a last resort for only the lowest risk stations - the preferred option is always a means of escape. Which is interesting because it means that the option of a ramp to Twentywell Lane was presumably considered insufficient.

HMG risk asssessment for transport document: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a78d34eed915d07d35b2b9e/fsra-transport.pdf

 

[Nottingham59]

This document specifies Refuges as a last resort for only the lowest risk stations - the preferred option is always a means of escape. Which is interesting because it means that the option of a ramp to Twentywell Lane was presumably considered insufficient.

A path to Twentywell Lane would have been a far better option, as will still be available when the lifts stop working, as they inevitably will.

 

[zwk500]

A path to Twentywell Lane would have been a far better option, as will still be available when the lifts stop working, as they inevitably will.

I don't disagree. However I haven't seen any of the option selection reports (I don't even know if they're publicly available) so can't say why it was ruled out.

 

[Meerkat]

I’m starting to think we need a pinned list to refer to when people ask “why does everything cost so much to build these days….it’s just a simple station?”.
Just the paperwork and all the people paid to keep up to date with these big documents and ensure and then check compliance must be costing a fortune!

 

[Killingworth]

A path to Twentywell Lane would have been a far better option, as will still be available when the lifts stop working, as they inevitably will.

Access to the island platform from Twentywell Lane was suggested at the 2016 public inquiry. At that time it didn't seem to be such a difficult issue., however such a simple ramp would have emerged straight onto the road. Taking the path through an unused arch below the bridge and up on the other side of the road seems to have been ruled out as the ramped zig-zag gradient was assessed as being too steep.

Users from the Bradway side of the line would have found it very useful to get more quickly and safely to the Manchester bound platform without crossing the road, but such customer focussed ideas carried minimal weight. I doubt it would have cost significantly more than the refuge that is unlikely ever to be used.

(It has been locally suggested that the refuge between the MML and Hope Valley line could be equipped as a rail enthusiasts and railway photographers hub. Suggested in jest, I should add.)

 

[eastwestdivide]

Rumours from the Hope Valley suggest the Hathersage West footbridge may be almost ready to allow reopening of the footpath that's been closed for 2 years.

The scaffolding/sheeting were no longer there today when I passed by on the train. All nicely painted dark green. Couldn’t see if it was open or not

 

[Iskra]

If Dore without commissioned lifts requires Fire Marshalls, you have to question whether any station where lifts provide the only level access to a platform also need Fire Marshalls if said lifts are the only access!

As they clearly don't, you have to wonder what the motivation for having them at Dore is!?

It is a slightly more complicated situation than is typical on the network: not just being a platform with the only access being a footbridge, but there is also the MML just behind the platform too. People often do irrational things not only in an emergency, but in a perceived emergency too, so an increased staff presence could be useful. It would probably be more useful to more passengers if they provided a generalist customer service person with fire training, rather than fire marshalls who only have a minor customer service role.

 

[The exile]

It is a slightly more complicated situation than is typical on the network: not just being a platform with the only access being a footbridge, but there is also the MML just behind the platform too. People often do irrational things not only in an emergency, but in a perceived emergency too, so an increased staff presence could be useful. It would probably be more useful to more passengers if they provided a generalist customer service person with fire training, rather than fire marshalls who only have a minor customer service role.

As far as I understand it, the marshals are only there because the refuge isn’t complete / signed off.
Anyone know what theoretical capacity of the refuge is? The one they’ve put in at Ashley Down (similar situation with fast lines behind the island platform) doesn’t look as if it could cope with the worst case scenario (heavily loaded train burning precisely where the footbridge is arriving at a busy platform).

 

[Nottingham59]

a generalist customer service person with fire training,

Perhaps they could provide a bricklayer who could get on with building the refuge, with instructions to put on a high-viz jacket saying "Fire Marshall" if a train catches fire?

 

[Killingworth]

Perhaps they could provide a bricklayer who could get on with building the refuge, with instructions to put on a high-viz jacket saying "Fire Marshall" if a train catches fire?

No bricks required. It's supposedly to be finished this week. At the far southern end of the platform it's not at all obvious that it's there - or what it's for, even when up close.

I'm not sure many would feel safer cooped up in the pen between the tracks beyond the obscuration board than remaining on the platform. Not much chance of a wheelchair escaping. The temptation to drop down onto and across the tracks would be great, despite the warning notices.

The footbridge is almost entirely metal, the most combustible parts being the lifts and their electrics. The chances of an emergency that these precautions might mitigate would seem to be incredibly low. The fire marshals add yet more expense.

 

[fishwomp]

No bricks required. It's supposedly to be finished this week. At the far southern end of the platform it's not at all obvious that it's there - or what it's for, even when up close.

I'm not sure many would feel safer cooped up in the pen between the tracks beyond the obscuration board than remaining on the platform. Not much chance of a wheelchair escaping. The temptation to drop down onto and across the tracks would be great, despite the warning notices.

The footbridge is almost entirely metal, the most combustible parts being the lifts and their electrics. The chances of an emergency that these precautions might mitigate would seem to be incredibly low. The fire marshals add yet more expense.

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The sign illustrating "push bar" does not at all resemble the handle that they have actually installed.. surely that will need fixing.

 

[WesternBiker]

No bricks required. It's supposedly to be finished this week. At the far southern end of the platform it's not at all obvious that it's there - or what it's for, even when up close.

I'm not sure many would feel safer cooped up in the pen between the tracks beyond the obscuration board than remaining on the platform. Not much chance of a wheelchair escaping. The temptation to drop down onto and across the tracks would be great, despite the warning notices.

The footbridge is almost entirely metal, the most combustible parts being the lifts and their electrics. The chances of an emergency that these precautions might mitigate would seem to be incredibly low. The fire marshals add yet more expense.

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Looking at the photographs, it seems odd not to have built in a ramp, given the distance of the refuge from the end of the platform (unless I'm misjudging the distance?). As well as a ramp benefiting wheelchair users, steps are a potential trip hazard when volumes of people are panicking.

 

[eastdyke]

No bricks required. It's supposedly to be finished this week. At the far southern end of the platform it's not at all obvious that it's there - or what it's for, even when up close.

I'm not sure many would feel safer cooped up in the pen between the tracks beyond the obscuration board than remaining on the platform. Not much chance of a wheelchair escaping. The temptation to drop down onto and across the tracks would be great, despite the warning notices.

The footbridge is almost entirely metal, the most combustible parts being the lifts and their electrics. The chances of an emergency that these precautions might mitigate would seem to be incredibly low. The fire marshals add yet more expense.

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Thank you for the pictures.

I agree that the chances of the Refuge being used are very very small but rather than mitigating the bridge being unusable surely the main reason for the Refuge is in the event that a train/platform evacuation is required where the passengers cannot reach the bridge? For example a train on fire?

I note the green sign 'Refuge Point' on the fence at the far end of the 'PEN'.
Being a 'Safety Feature' the presence of the Refuge will require the TOC to maintain the access clear of snow and ice, not just the platform itself [and that includes quite a lot of platform].

For those familiar with the project, has the Refuge been built as expected from viewing the design plans?
[I have seen that the 'Refuges' at Bletchley High Level platforms, East-West Rail, have not been built as expected from the plans submitted with the TWAO].

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What if the theoretical train fire is the both the full length of the platform and the length of the refuge area too! A refuge for the refuge?

 

[Trainman40083]

No bricks required. It's supposedly to be finished this week. At the far southern end of the platform it's not at all obvious that it's there - or what it's for, even when up close.

I'm not sure many would feel safer cooped up in the pen between the tracks beyond the obscuration board than remaining on the platform. Not much chance of a wheelchair escaping. The temptation to drop down onto and across the tracks would be great, despite the warning notices.

The footbridge is almost entirely metal, the most combustible parts being the lifts and their electrics. The chances of an emergency that these precautions might mitigate would seem to be incredibly low. The fire marshals add yet more expense.

View attachment 164018 View attachment 164020

Is that an economy anti vandal trespass guard? Thought they were all super spiky rubber jobs.

 

[Northerngirl]

Surely if the fire is bad enough that the footbridge can't be used, it would be totally unsafe to walk under it to the evacuation point

 

[Killingworth]

Surely if the fire is bad enough that the footbridge can't be used, it would be totally unsafe to walk under it to the evacuation point

Ah, but there's provision at the other end of the platform. At which point the conflict between emergency exit and trespass prevention becomes apparent!

 

[Brush 4]

People will just go round the end of the fence, down the steps and across the tracks..........

 

[GardenRail]

Look at all the bloody signs on the fence, jeeeese.

 

[Trainman40083]

Nice to see they still use the standard RKB padlock on the gates. Some things never change.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

People will just go round the end of the fence, down the steps and across the tracks..........

Look at all the bloody signs on the fence, jeeeese.

That is modern Britain for you!

 

[Killingworth]

People will just go round the end of the fence, down the steps and across the tracks..........

But there is very unlikely to be an emergency when the island platform can't be evacuated over the bridge even when lifts don't work. For those with reduced mobility or vision the only bits that may be of use will be the Help points, assuming they're answered in Central Sheffield - and someone can get a taxi to Dore in 20-30 minutes. There are further Help points either side of the bridge.

In most likely scenarios fellow passengers would have used common sensse and assisted each other as they felt fit, despite warning notices. It's human nature.

 

[Brush 4]

Just describing what people actually do, as opposed to what the computer model says they should do.

When trains are stuck for more than a couple of hours, they get out and walk along the tracks, even 3rd rail.

When councils build footpaths through a park that zig-zag and meander all over the place because it looks pretty, the people walk in a straight line across the grass, wearing it away and creating a mud path.

These planners/designers never take into account real life human behaviour.

 

[zwk500]

Just describing what people actually do, as opposed to what the computer model says they should do.

When trains are stuck for more than a couple of hours, they get out and walk along the tracks, even 3rd rail.

The refuge is to satisfy a regulatory requirement, not because of a planning/modelling recommendation.