How are you going to deal with Climate Change?

[paul1609]

There is a record low in wind thus dirtier electricity at the moment. You will see this is big electricity price increases.

That's not correct. Wind generation was 20% down in the first quarter of this year despite a 1.5% increase of capacity. I think it is generally accepted by engineers that the wind generation figures achieved in 2020 were somewhat of a freak aided by the covid recession.
Electricity price increases are being largely driven by gas wholesale price increases as the covid recession ends.
On the positive renewable side the Norwegian Interconnector has recently gone live importing 1.4 MW of largely hydro electricity to the UK mix.

Indeed - you can check the information on the national grid's carbon intensity data which in fact shows that for the South of England (which I'm assuming is the most relevant area for @reddragon) has on average been about 250g CO2e/kWh during overnight periods - slightly worse than it's 3 year average, and a fair bit worse than the whole UK grid. (It also doesn't turn up our apparent carbon free days - although there are quite a few periods of missing data)

View attachment 102603



Quite easily (though slowly)! My parent's Outlander came with a dedicated charging cable which plugs into a 13A socket at one end and has a large brick with all the necessary charging step/up equipment before a length of cable which runs to the plug end, something like this. To facilitate this, we've got a simple 13A socket in a weatherproof enclosure just inside the porch, a short external rated extension lead (so the brick can be kept under the car where it won't get wet or in the way), with an isolator switch inside.

Ive had a weekend test drive of an outlander the idea being the electric would largely cover my daily commute to Headcorn Station 15 miles each way. The reality was it couldn't make one way in winter and the 29 mpg at 70mph on a trip rather undermined its value as a green vehicle.
I also had a Nissan Leaf Company Car and tried using the 13 amp connection to charge it but a full charge took something approaching 19 hours. The Nissan limits its current draw to 10amps so about 2.3 Kw.The losses are about 25% from the mains to the battery so the battery recharges at around 1.7 Kw. Fortunately my pub in town has a public fast charger 200 yards up the road so I used to do the 60 mins 80% charge and then plug it in the 13 a socket at home.

 

[reddragon]

Ive had a weekend test drive of an outlander the idea being the electric would largely cover my daily commute to Headcorn Station 15 miles each way. The reality was it couldn't make one way in winter and the 29 mpg at 70mph on a trip rather undermined its value as a green vehicle.
I also had a Nissan Leaf Company Car and tried using the 13 amp connection to charge it but a full charge took something approaching 19 hours. The Nissan limits its current draw to 10amps so about 2.3 Kw.The losses are about 25% from the mains to the battery so the battery recharges at around 1.7 Kw. Fortunately my pub in town has a public fast charger 200 yards up the road so I used to do the 60 mins 80% charge and then plug it in the 13 a socket at home.

A LEAF does indeed take 19 hours from 0% to 100% but in reality I am sure you didn't get home with 0% on any occasion unless on a tow truck! A domestic wall box take 6h45m to do the same but of course even when really low it's going to be under 6 hours anyway. Charging at 2kW doesn't warm the battery, so a wall box at 7kW is more efficient in charging with lower losses. Mine I reckon is 10-15% weather dependant.

As long as your car has enough range for your winter trips and you have access to charging it's fine. Many people of course refuse to change any habits and look for excuses to make it seem hard to do. A Petrol / Diesel engine is only as efficient as 25% at best, then with traffic, idling, warm up and all the supply chain it's efficiency is pitiful well to wheel!

 

[paul1609]

A LEAF does indeed take 19 hours from 0% to 100% but in reality I am sure you didn't get home with 0% on any occasion unless on a tow truck! A domestic wall box take 6h45m to do the same but of course even when really low it's going to be under 6 hours anyway. Charging at 2kW doesn't warm the battery, so a wall box at 7kW is more efficient in charging with lower losses. Mine I reckon is 10-15% weather dependant.

As long as your car has enough range for your winter trips and you have access to charging it's fine. Many people of course refuse to change any habits and look for excuses to make it seem hard to do. A Petrol / Diesel engine is only as efficient as 25% at best, then with traffic, idling, warm up and all the supply chain it's efficiency is pitiful well to wheel!

As I understand it half of the losses in the 230 volt to battery charging are actually in changing the 230 volt ac single phase to 350 volt dc and the battery heating is about the other half. When I first had the Leaf I was concerned that my employer wasnt paying me enough for the electricity I was using to charge it and from my smart meter the range KW were about 25% down on what the meter was saying. I understand that the only way to significant reduce these losses is to charge from a 3 phase supply.
It may be that the charging electronics have improved since then, at the retired for 2 years stage I'm not really in any sort of new car market.
The leaf didn't really have enough range for what I was trying to do with it. Living in a relatively remote area for the South East with multiple destinations. I really needed a car with real world range of at least 300 miles. So yes I did have some squeaky bum moments and a lot of unwanted Costa Coffees at Clackett Lane services on the M25, my car was regularly needing near to full charges.

 

[reddragon]

My current EV is a 40kW LEAF and I was able to drive it to Portugal. The official range is 150 miles, but you cannot drive at 70mph and get that. I found that starting the day with 100% gets you 120 miles, rapid 1 gives you another 80 and rapid 2 another 80 making 280 miles. After that, charging slows down a lot and you are pushing it to make 400 miles in a day. The journey I did in the LEAF took 11h 15 mins because of this for 400 miles.

My old normal family car could do this with 1-2 stops in about 8 hours, my best more powerful car did it in 6 hours if you pushed hard with just a splash & dash. The hills are a killer on the route.

I have ordered a new long range EV that will do the journey in 8 hours, due to higher average speed, less stops and quicker charging so little different to a normal family car. The CO2 will be nil as the chargers seem all to be connected to large inland wind farms and the cost much lower too. I did 1700 miles for less than the cost of a tank of fuel.

My EV car costs are still lower than the vintage Vauxhall estate I last owned. Old & 'cheap' are not always 'cheap' overall.


3rd major flood in 2 months London today causing chaos!

 

[Ediswan]

I understand that the only way to significant reduce these losses is to charge from a 3 phase supply.

It is not immediately obvious why charging from 3 phase would be significantly more efficient. If anybody has any real world figures showing this I would be interested to see them.

 

[reddragon]

It is not immediately obvious why charging from 3 phase would be significantly more efficient. If anybody has any real world figures showing this I would be interested to see them.

My understanding is that there is a charge volume based loss and a charge time based loss, hence higher charge speeds result in a lower loss per kWh.

 

[paul1609]

It is not immediately obvious why charging from 3 phase would be significantly more efficient. If anybody has any real world figures showing this I would be interested to see them.

Its because you have 3 different sine waves to chop to rectify the ac to dc. I understand its why the Tesla Superchargers get such a high efficiecy rating. Theres not much in the way of figures to back this up. I suggest in part because the Vehicle manufactures don't really want to highlight the losses. I understand that one French manufacturers model actually lost over 50% of the energy between the mains and the battery in tests in the US.

 

[Ediswan]

My understanding is that there is a charge volume based loss and a charge time based loss, hence higher charge speeds result in a lower loss per kWh.

OK, so if anything, it is because 3 phase chargers are the most powerful. If single phase chargers of the same power existed, they should be as efficient.

 

[paul1609]

My current EV is a 40kW LEAF and I was able to drive it to Portugal. The official range is 150 miles, but you cannot drive at 70mph and get that. I found that starting the day with 100% gets you 120 miles, rapid 1 gives you another 80 and rapid 2 another 80 making 280 miles. After that, charging slows down a lot and you are pushing it to make 400 miles in a day. The journey I did in the LEAF took 11h 15 mins because of this for 400 miles.

My old normal family car could do this with 1-2 stops in about 8 hours, my best more powerful car did it in 6 hours if you pushed hard with just a splash & dash. The hills are a killer on the route.

I have ordered a new long range EV that will do the journey in 8 hours, due to higher average speed, less stops and quicker charging so little different to a normal family car. The CO2 will be nil as the chargers seem all to be connected to large inland wind farms and the cost much lower too. I did 1700 miles for less than the cost of a tank of fuel.

My EV car costs are still lower than the vintage Vauxhall estate I last owned. Old & 'cheap' are not always 'cheap' overall.


3rd major flood in 2 months London today causing chaos!

How long does your leaf take for the second fast charge? Mine was pushing 3 hours, I understand Nissan were trying some software fix after several owners threatened legal action because it wasn't pointed out in the sales buff that you could only in effect fast charge once.

Im not a climate denier but you have to question when tower bridge floods whether the issues aren't a at least part caused by a lack of drainage maintenance.

 

[reddragon]

How long does your leaf take for the second fast charge? Mine was pushing 3 hours, I understand Nissan were trying some software fix after several owners threatened legal action because it wasn't pointed out in the sales buff that you could only in effect fast charge once.

Im not a climate denier but you have to question when tower bridge floods whether the issues aren't a at least part caused by a lack of drainage maintenance.

Charge 1 was at 45 kW, Charge 2 at 35, Charge 3 at 25 and dropping, charge 4 was barely worth using a rapid.

The intensity of the rain is exceeding the capacity of highway drainage, maintenance is a minor issue. There is talk of reducing highway drainage gullies in places to protect the sewers as sewage flooding is far more damaging than the rain water damage. Sewers are designed for a 30 year event and the railways a 50 year event. Several events this year have exceeded this which is very abnormal. These seem now to occur several times a year and are well in excess of design capacity or potential workable design. July was made worse by the already wet conditions / high tide.

The impact on infrastructure and our lives will only grow going forwards. Only we can slow this down, we cannot stop it anymore just keep it within survivable limits.

 

[Geezertronic]

I have ordered a new long range EV that will do the journey in 8 hours, due to higher average speed, less stops and quicker charging so little different to a normal family car. The CO2 will be nil as the chargers seem all to be connected to large inland wind farms and the cost much lower too. I did 1700 miles for less than the cost of a tank of fuel.

Out of interest, what is the long range EV that you have ordered?

 

[reddragon]

Out of interest, what is the long range EV that you have ordered?

MG5 estate car - long range - 250 miles. Comes with all the toys & space of a car £6-10k more. I checked out & tested loads at the Fully Charged Show at Farnborough Airport last week.

Initially I looked at the 62 kW LEAF (slow charging), Kia e-Niro (boot too small) and VW ID3 (mix of issues), but they all cost more and have less space.

 

[Geezertronic]

MG5 estate car - long range - 250 miles. Comes with all the toys & space of a car £6-10k more. I checked out & tested loads at the Fully Charged Show at Farnborough Airport last week.

Initially I looked at the 62 kW LEAF (slow charging), Kia e-Niro (boot too small) and VW ID3 (mix of issues), but they all cost more and have less space.

You have to wonder why they state 250 miles as long range when it is not. I couldn't justify getting an EV until the range was in the 400 miles range which is similar to a full tank in my MINI John Cooper Works. And until the prices come down, I'd still be priced out of a brand new EV and would be reluctant to buy a second hand EV because of the expected battery degradation (and associated lower range) depending on how it has been charged

 

[reddragon]

You have to wonder why they state 250 miles as long range when it is not. I couldn't justify getting an EV until the range was in the 400 miles range which is similar to a full tank in my MINI John Cooper Works. And until the prices come down, I'd still be priced out of a brand new EV and would be reluctant to buy a second hand EV because of the expected battery degradation (and associated lower range) depending on how it has been charged

It's a very long time since I was able to drive 400 miles without a stop and I bet that if you are honest, neither do you and I'm also sure you don't dare run it down to empty either.

Why is everyone so fixed on the purchase price when nobody ever pays that as they get a car on PCP or a lease?

I have always driven old bangers, well why pay a new premium for little gain eh? Well, old - old bangers were quite reliable, not too much tech and parts were cheap. Not anymore! My 2001 Astra diesel just went on costing me not much until one day it fell apart. I made the mistake of buying a newer car with gadgets on, bad idea these are not reliable past 100k miles.

I did the maths. Capital cost + Maintenance & servicing + fuel + tax and an EV was cheaper per month for me. I know loads of people who spend more on fuel alone than I pay in total for similar mileages. I'd never driven a new car before and love it (apart from being worried about damaging it). Not paying for fuel half the year definitely helps too, not getting out in the rain with plastic gloves to put crap in it, the stink yuk!

 

[Geezertronic]

It's a very long time since I was able to drive 400 miles without a stop and I bet that if you are honest, neither do you and I'm also sure you don't dare run it down to empty either.

It is not about non-stop driving, for me it is the ability to do more than 250 miles during one day without the need to charge. Currently, none of the sites I am required to visit have EV charging points and whilst that may change, it still does not get over the fact that a 250 mile range is not long range

Why is everyone so fixed on the purchase price when nobody ever pays that as they get a car on PCP or a lease?

Why should a person be required to get PCP or a lease in the first place just to get a half decent EV?

I have always driven old bangers, well why pay a new premium for little gain eh? Well, old - old bangers were quite reliable, not too much tech and parts were cheap. Not anymore! My 2001 Astra diesel just went on costing me not much until one day it fell apart. I made the mistake of buying a newer car with gadgets on, bad idea these are not reliable past 100k miles.

My JCW has 118,000 miles on it, and apart from regular maintenance (including a new timing chain), it costs me little in maintenance.

I did the maths. Capital cost + Maintenance & servicing + fuel + tax and an EV was cheaper per month for me. I know loads of people who spend more on fuel alone than I pay in total for similar mileages. I'd never driven a new car before and love it (apart from being worried about damaging it). Not paying for fuel half the year definitely helps too, not getting out in the rain with plastic gloves to put crap in it, the stink yuk!

But you'd have to get out in the rain to charge an EV then wait 1/2 hour plus for the privilege of a fast charge. By that time, I would be many miles ahead of you, even if I did have to fill up which would take less than 5 minutes

I'll admit, I take the train where possible but to most locations there is not a suitable public transport alternative

 

[reddragon]

It is not about non-stop driving, for me it is the ability to do more than 250 miles during one day without the need to charge. Currently, none of the sites I am required to visit have EV charging points and whilst that may change, it still does not get over the fact that a 250 mile range is not long range

Many of the highest miler drivers now drive EVs for pure cost reasons, low lost time on maintenance and reliability. I'm sure you could adapt just a little?

Why should a person be required to get PCP or a lease in the first place just to get a half decent EV?

Well if you have the cash to buy a Mini then you'd have a sizeable deposit on an EV. You could also go via the company lease route and get it before tax / NI for 2% bik.

But you'd have to get out in the rain to charge an EV then wait 1/2 hour plus for the privilege of a fast charge. By that time, I would be many miles ahead of you, even if I did have to fill up which would take less than 5 minutes

I get home, I get out the car & plug it in as I go indoors. Why would I want to sit in the rain?
On a long trip I plug in and go for a snack / drink. Why would I want to stand out in the dirty, cold & wet Petrol Station for?

 

[najaB]

Maybe some of them were eventually but one of the videos I saw was the Police just standing around letting them get on with things.

Over 70 have been arrested so far:

The number of people arrested over climate change protests that blocked five M25 junctions has reached 77.

Activists from a group called Insulate Britain caused long tailbacks and disruption with the action on Monday.

Fiona Atkinson from the group said it was "fed up with the lack of action" on the issue, but the government said it was supporting people to install energy efficiency measures in their homes.

Police thanked drivers for their "patience and understanding".

M25 protests: Arrest tally over Insulate Britain action reaches 77

Police thank drivers for their "patience and understanding" during the disruption.

www.bbc.com

 

[reddragon]

Over 70 have been arrested so far:

M25 protests: Arrest tally over Insulate Britain action reaches 77

Police thank drivers for their "patience and understanding" during the disruption.

www.bbc.com

I think todays flooding caused bigger disruption today than the M25 incident.

Oh of course, blaming others for the climate is so much easier!

PS - don't you want action to reduce your heating bills?

 

[philthetube]

You clearly have never owned an EV. 98% of those who take one for a test drive convert and never go back. They are cheaper to own, better to drive, last much longer, much more useful tech, safer in many ways, the list is endless. They hold all of the performance, reliability and many speed records. Pikes Peak, most tracks including Nuremberg. I no longer having the displeasure of a cold frozen car in the morning, endless maintenance and visits to Petrol stations, I can't quite grasp how you think an IC could in any remaining way be better? Enlighten me! Just to head you off with charging times / availability. 95% of charging is done at home, at night and public charging has overtaken Petrol station availability. Batteries last 25 years in a car then as grid storage and can be recycled. Oil refining uses more Cobalt than a battery etc

The majority of the population do not have the option to charge at home, anyone living in terraced houses or flats with private car parks does not have the option to run an ev, there is no point in me even considering an ev if I have to sit at asda every evening to charge it.

and this would be the case

 

[reddragon]

The majority of the population do not have the option to charge at home, anyone living in terraced houses or flats with private car parks does not have the option to run an ev, there is no point in me even considering an ev if I have to sit at asda every evening to charge it.

and this would be the case

40% of the UK are in that position. What makes matters even worse is those who cannot afford to own a house with a drive pay 5% VAT on 5p/unit and those who are less well off & most deserving will have to pay 20% vat on a higher rate, usually 40p / unit. Utterly wrong and unfair in particular as the same people are least able to waste that time.

 

[paul1609]

The majority of the population do not have the option to charge at home, anyone living in terraced houses or flats with private car parks does not have the option to run an ev, there is no point in me even considering an ev if I have to sit at asda every evening to charge it.

and this would be the case

You clearly have never owned an EV. 98% of those who take one for a test drive convert and never go back. They are cheaper to own, better to drive, last much longer, much more useful tech, safer in many ways, the list is endless. They hold all of the performance, reliability and many speed records. Pikes Peak, most tracks including Nuremberg. I no longer having the displeasure of a cold frozen car in the morning, endless maintenance and visits to Petrol stations, I can't quite grasp how you think an IC could in any remaining way be better? Enlighten me! Just to head you off with charging times / availability. 95% of charging is done at home, at night and public charging has overtaken Petrol station availability. Batteries last 25 years in a car then as grid storage and can be recycled. Oil refining uses more Cobalt than a battery etc

So you are charging your 40 KW Nissan Leaf 95% of the time via a 7KW socket on a 6.5KW peak solar panel system at night and doing 10000 miles a year? of which 50% is provided by the panels?
That alarm sounding on my computer is the low credibility/ bull**** warning.

 

[reddragon]

So you are charging your 40 KW Nissan Leaf 95% of the time via a 7KW socket on a 6.5KW peak solar panel system at night and doing 10000 miles a year? of which 50% is provided by the panels?
That alarm sounding on my computer is the low credibility/ bull**** warning.

### Troll alert ### Troll alert ###

Factual response required to trolling

When out at work 49%: -



Working from home this year 64% . . . oops!




I think that maybe you are the one bullsh**ing / trolling here?

 

[paul1609]

### Troll alert ### Troll alert ###

Factual response required to trolling

When out at work 49%: -

View attachment 102623

Working from home this year 64% . . . oops!


View attachment 102622

I think that maybe you are the one bullsh**ing / trolling here?

Im not familiar with the Logs you are showing me but I would point out that you are certainly not charging 95% at night which you are advocating. From this charging record you are not doing 10000 miles per year which you are claiming. Your car remains connected to the solar panels for most of the day to achieve these sort of figures.

 

[Cowley]

There’s probably more than a few of us (well me anyway ) that don’t necessarily understand some of the fact and figures flying around here. So please keep it friendly and informative folks because it’s useful to have the information.
Thank you.

 

[reddragon]

Im not familiar with the Logs you are showing me but I would point out that you are certainly not charging 95% at night which you are advocating. From this charging record you are not doing 10000 miles per year which you are claiming. Your car remains connected to the solar panels for most of the day to achieve these sort of figures.

I charge as I said above 50% off solar in the day and 50% at night when at home. This year I have charged away a fair bit due to a few long trips, probably 2500 miles worth. Maybe I charge out more than I thought!

There’s probably more than a few of us (well me anyway ) that don’t necessarily understand some of the fact and figures flying around here. So please keep it friendly and informative folks because it’s useful to have the information.
Thank you.

Thanks @Cowley

 

[paul1609]

There’s probably more than a few of us (well me anyway ) that don’t necessarily understand some of the fact and figures flying around here. So please keep it friendly and informative folks because it’s useful to have the information.
Thank you

The problem is that I do understand the figures and I've also had a similar company car for 18 months so I'm acutely aware of what's possible. However discretion is the better part of valour so I'll bail out here.

 

[Gostav]

I think todays flooding caused bigger disruption today than the M25 incident.

Oh of course, blaming others for the climate is so much easier!

PS - don't you want action to reduce your heating bills?

If you really really care that, the fee should be greatly increased to leaving people with only two choices-wear thick clothes indoors, or choose more insulated housing such as an apartment.
Also, very experience food price - most people would be really save food.
very experience clothes price - most people value their clothes very much.
very high price of private car - most people would only use transport system.

 

[reddragon]

If you really really care that, the fee should be greatly increased to leaving people with only two choices-wear thick clothes indoors, or choose more insulated housing such as an apartment.

If the Government had introduced the laws intended in 2017, all new homes would have very low heating bills. If they didn't cancel or make impossible to use each retrofitting fund older homes would have been refitted saving owners and tenants thousands.

Last year a substantial fund was created to enable trades to retrofit homes. They then without notice cancelled the funding mid way because nobody had claimed the money. The builders & trades who had done the work and claimed the money never got it and suffered the financial penalty as no resources were provided to process their claims.

This is what the Insulate Extinction group are about, supporting normal people living is cold poorly heated homes, not the so called wealthy middle classes who can get it done themselves. It was a means tested system, certainly not for the well healed.

 

[Geezertronic]

Apparently the idiots are back blocking parts of the M25 again. They really need the book throwing at them - no more pandering to these thugs

 

[scotrail158713]

I'll try not to derail this into a covid thread, however I've limited the number of lateral flow tests I've done - only done 3 since they started. All the plastic that comes with it and goes to landfill mustn't be great considering the numbers of tests the country seems to do.