How best to speak to a foreign person with poor English

[90019]

Absolute nonsense. Everyone is capable of learning to converse functionally in another language. Of course, it's not easy and people often underestimate the time and effort required, coming up with all manner of excuses like "I'm not talented at languages", "I'm too old", "Everyone in that country speaks English", "I was rubbish at French at school" etc.

Are you trying to be deliberately insulting, or are you just plain insensitive with little understanding of what you're talking about?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Absolute nonsense. Everyone is capable of learning to converse functionally in another language. Of course, it's not easy and people often underestimate the time and effort required, coming up with all manner of excuses like "I'm not talented at languages", "I'm too old", "Everyone in that country speaks English", "I was rubbish at French at school" etc.

But this "I can't do languages" excuse is just a massive cop-out. In my experience, those who say they can't learn are those who don't really want to, or have perhaps tried and found the early stages tough going before opting out.

Now there is a man who knows the score. How is it possible that first language Welsh speakers, including those who would be classified as having learning difficulties, can speak English of a high standard?

Is it a peculiar trait of the English that they 'do not do languages'? There are exceptions, of course. I knew an Englishman who came to work for the BBC in Cardiff. He had no Welsh, when he arrived, but within months he had become sufficiently proficient, in Welsh, to carry out interviews on Welsh language Radio and Television.

It is source of wonder, to me, that only a tiny number of English people have any understanding of the languages of their nearest neighbours; Wales and France. Ah, I hear you say, what use is Welsh outside of Wales? However, it would be nice if people made an effort to pronounce place names properly. I have no difficulty with Leicester or Derby or even London, which has no 'u's.

On the other hand, French is a widely spoken international language and also the language of diplomacy. Then you have Spanish, another language spoken all over the world. But where do the tourists gather? English bars; English Cafes; English holiday complexes and those that settle there tend to live in little English ghettoes.

Come on now, don't be lazy, try a bit harder.

 

[WestCoast]

Now there is a man who knows the score. How is it possible that first language Welsh speakers, including those who would be classified as having learning difficulties, can speak English of a high standard?

Teaching people as young children as part of the primary curriculum and the need to speak English even within Wales itself. It's a well known fact that learning a language becomes ever harder the older you get. If you become bilingual at an early age, you absorb vocabulary and the skills of reading, writing and listening in both languages in tandem to become proficient in both. Younger children have an amazing ability to do this in two languages.

I've seen this in action. In the Netherlands and the Nordic countries, all children learn English as part of the primary curriculum and it's treated as a core subject. I imagine it's the same in Welsh speaking schools. A good level of English is a prerequisite to tertiary education. That's why around 90% of the population in those countries can speak English well. Not all are fluent or native standard though, probably only around 50%.

In England and Scotland, bilingual education is rather rare (although less so in the latter). Most language learning begins in secondary school and only then for the maximum of a few hours a week. After that, most schools don't require pupils to take a language to GCSE. Pupils simply don't see it as important and that kind of thinking continues into adulthood.

It all goes back to the education system.

 

[CC 72100]

But where do the tourists gather? English bars; English Cafes; English holiday complexes and those that settle there tend to live in little English ghettoes.

Come on now, don't be lazy, try a bit harder.

Bit of a generalisation there? I agree with your enthusiasm for learning languages, but not all English go abroad only to sit in English places and speak English with English people!

I've known people who can only speak a couple of words of French who'd much rather be surrounded by the french when in France, and visit French things than spend their time in a mini-England.

Teaching people as young children as part of the primary curriculum and the need to speak English even within Wales itself. It's a well known fact that learning a language becomes ever harder the older you get. If you become bilingual at an early age, you absorb vocabulary and the skills of reading, writing and listening in both languages in tandem to become proficient in both. Children have an amazing ability to do this in two languages.

I've seen this in action. In the Netherlands and the Nordic countries, all children learn English as part of the primary curriculum and it's treated as a core subject. I imagine it's the same in Welsh speaking schools. A good level of English is a prerequisite to tertiary education. That's why around 90% of the population in those countries can speak English well.

In England and Scotland, bilingual education is extremely rare. Most language learning begins in secondary school and only then for the maximum of a few hours a week. After that, most schools don't require pupils to take a language to GCSE. Pupils simply don't see it as important and that kind of thinking continues into adulthood.

Nail hit on the head. On the continent, learning a foreign language (mainly English) is given a much higher priority, alongside their own lanugage and maths. We just start too late, and don't give it enough importance.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Now there is a man who knows the score. How is it possible that first language Welsh speakers, including those who would be classified as having learning difficulties, can speak English of a high standard?

Is it a peculiar trait of the English that they 'do not do languages'? There are exceptions, of course. I knew an Englishman who came to work for the BBC in Cardiff. He had no Welsh, when he arrived, but within months he had become sufficiently proficient, in Welsh, to carry out interviews on Welsh language Radio and Television.

It is source of wonder, to me, that only a tiny number of English people have any understanding of the languages of their nearest neighbours; Wales and France. Ah, I hear you say, what use is Welsh outside of Wales? However, it would be nice if people made an effort to pronounce place names properly. I have no difficulty with Leicester or Derby or even London, which has no 'u's.

On the other hand, French is a widely spoken international language and also the language of diplomacy. Then you have Spanish, another language spoken all over the world. But where do the tourists gather? English bars; English Cafes; English holiday complexes and those that settle there tend to live in little English ghettoes.

Come on now, don't be lazy, try a bit harder.

Not really, it's because grammar is not taught any more because the idiots in charge of education think that it's not important. People that are foreign to us are still taught grammar because it's important to them. I still cringe when I hear phrases such as "we are trialling a new method" or "you can access the train" or "we source our ingredients locally". Plus of course the English really are lazy when it comes to languages. I think that it's a hangover from days of empire.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

I spent 8 years, I think it was, attempting to learn French at school, and somehow managed to get a C at GCSE.
The result is that I know almost no French whatsoever, and nothing of any use.

You're not the first person to say that and you won't be the last. I found my O-level French [to be] of little value too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Travelling around Europe by train you'd have to know an awful lot of languages to communicate with locals in their native tongues. In fact, you don't even have to cross borders to change languages - Switzerland alone has four official languages and Belgium has three. This is why people from say, Estonia might talk to people from Spain in English, because it's a common language they both have some knowledge of.

Personally, I can speak German well, plus I can just about get by in French (invaluable) and Dutch (of little value). I can understand more Spanish than I can speak it.

I normally learn 'hello/thank you/excuse me' in every country I visit - I can't become conversant in Danish/Swedish/Finnish/Czech/Polish quickly (those are the countries I've visited/passed through in the last year or so).

For example, I was on the Berlin to Vienna train earlier in the year, which actually passes through the Czech Republic. The on-train staff can't expect the passengers travelling between Germany and Austria to speak any Czech, can they?



We are as a nation quite used to people not from here speaking English though. You might feel different as a member of staff in somewhere like Denmark, where very few foreign non-residents have a decent enough command of the language to hold a conversation. That's opposed to here where a lot of foreigners from non English speaking countries can speak enough English to get by, because it's a popular language to learn worldwide.

However, if someone who genuinely doesn't speak English learns a few basic words, I suppose any helpful member of the public/staff in the UK would try and assist them. At least I'd hope so.

I don't mean to be pedantic; but I thought Belgians (depending on where they live), spoke two languages - Flemish or French?

 

[Yew]

Nail hit on the head. On the continent, learning a foreign language (mainly English) is given a much higher priority, alongside their own lanugage and maths. We just start too late, and don't give it enough importance.

I think the problem is we do too many languages. In years 8 and 9 I did two hours of German a week, and two hours of french. I would have preferred to focus on one and actually be able to speak it, and do well at GCSE and possibly take it on to a level.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't mean to be pedantic; but I thought Belgians (depending on where they live), spoke two languages - Flemish or French?

Belgium's third official language is German - spoken in the east of predominantly French-speaking Wallonia by around 100,000 people. Not that significant compared to the other two, but official nonetheless.

Most Flemish (Dutch) speakers have no problem with at least basic French, but a lot of French speakers have almost no knowledge of Flemish. It's a bit of a nightmare for communication in Brussels where they overlap - it's actually better to stick to English in the capital! Train staff are supposed to know both though.

 

[JohnB57]

Not really, it's because grammar is not taught any more because the idiots in charge of education think that it's not important. People that are foreign to us are still taught grammar because it's important to them.

I think the opposite is true. English is taught in other countries from an early age when children are too young to even have a grasp of how their own language's grammar works - they just learn to speak and understand it, without any need to know the formalities. How many British five year olds would understand the meaning of subject/object, tenses, etc etc? The dryness of traditional formal language teaching is what has put lots of people off.

Also, whether we like it or not, English has become an international filter language. The number of times I have initiated a conversation in French (poor), German (pretty good,) or Spanish (competent) only to have a response in excellent English amazes me.

Regarding Welsh, it's virtually impossible to find a teacher here in England. My wife is half Welsh but was brought up in Liverpool and didn't learn it from her dad. We've looked into Welsh lessons with no success, which I guess is unsurprising.

 

[tannedfrog]

it's actually better to stick to English in the capital! Train staff are supposed to know both though.

No it's not, French is the main language in Brussels despite it not being in Wallonia

 

[tannedfrog]

I still cringe when I hear phrases such as "we are trialling a new method" or "you can access the train" or "we source our ingredients locally". .

It isn't poor grammar to use nouns as verbs, it's just that languages always change and some nouns are now commonly used as verbs

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Regarding Welsh, it's virtually impossible to find a teacher here in England. My wife is half Welsh but was brought up in Liverpool and didn't learn it from her dad. We've looked into Welsh lessons with no success, which I guess is unsurprising.

Try http://www.saysomethinginwelsh.com/home/

 

[WestCoast]

No it's not, French is the main language in Brussels despite it not being in Wallonia

Yes, it's the main language, but not the sole language of communications by any means. A lot of the workers/shoppers that arrive from the suburbs and Flanders aren't mother tongue French speakers - you can never be sure (they will speak most likely speak French though). The language divide there is a really big issue - French speakers claim there is no problem in Brussels, but Flemish speakers argue that the city should be more bilingual as it is supposed to be according to the constitution. French speaking immigrants have overwhelmingly boosted that language in the last 40 years.

The Metro in Brussels plays pop songs at stations (really!) and they couldn't agree on the number of French and Dutch songs, so they plumped for English songs all the time!

 

[Requeststop]

Having lived and worked for 32 years outside of the UK my experience is that I learn a lot of other languages but keep very little of them. There are many parts of the world when someone sees a caucasian and asks you "Do you speak English" It is almost that they expect all caucasians to speak English.

I have several ways of dealing with this. I make a mental note of what day it is (lets say in this case it's Monday) and decide if the person is attractive and I'd like to please them I'd say with a smile "Yes but only on Mondays, How can I help" they are then put at ease and are grateful to you and are happy! If I don't like the look of the questioner I reply "sorry but I speak english on Fridays only" and walk away.

If I pass by the University here in Baku, or in the shopping malls of Bangkok, I have gotten used to seeing the English language students with their questionaires ready to pounce on Mr Westerner, to ask the questions that their language tutors have set for them. I have learned to give long quotations in French, German, Italian, Thai (for Azerbaijan - It really confuses them) and Finnish - Try saying "Olen kotoisin Suomessa. Kotini on kolmesataaviisikymmentäkuusi km päässä Helsingistä, mutta olen iloinen olla ihana maa Ison-Britannian ja Pohjois-Irlannin. Missä on lunta? "

It means I am from Finland. My home is three hundred and fifty six kilometers from Helsinki but I am delighted to be in your wonderful country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Where is the snow?"

They soon walk away! Don't try Hungarian unless you have a throat disease!

 

[rdwarr]

Not knowing a second language isn't necessarily a sign of ignorance.

How would you define ignorance then? I always thought it meant not knowing something.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

It isn't poor grammar to use nouns as verbs, it's just that languages always change and some nouns are now commonly used as verbs

It's still poor grammar. Nothing and no-one will change what I laughingly refer to as my mind. Nouns are commonly used as verbs because people are too lazy to use the proper format. A new one was in use a few weeks ago with commentators describing athletes as medalling when finishing their contest.

 

[brianfraser]

Are you trying to be deliberately insulting, or are you just plain insensitive with little understanding of what you're talking about?

Neither. I'm simply trying to quash the myth that some people aren't able to learn languages. If that were true, how come nearly all citizens in Norway and the Netherlands can speak English? Where are those who were not able to learn?

People avoid learning languages unless there is a social or economic advantage to be had. A few have a special interest and are self-motivated. But I don't believe there is a person who simply "can't do languages" or "doesn't have a head for languages" We can all make progress if we try.

But because there is generally little need for UK citizens to gain proficiency in another tongue, we tend not to make the effort.

I once heard a juggler say that many people assume they could never juggle because they "just aren't coordinated enough". Yet he claimed almost anyone can learn the basics if they apply themselves. Maybe they won't reach the level of juggling 8 flaming torches but they can gain some sort of competence in this discipline. It's a similar story with foreign languages in the English-speaking world, many people admit defeat before they even start.

It's a well known fact that learning a language becomes ever harder the older you get. If you become bilingual at an early age, you absorb vocabulary and the skills of reading, writing and listening in both languages in tandem to become proficient in both. Younger children have an amazing ability to do this in two languages.

While nobody would argue against the fact that young children soak up languages like a sponge if they have high exposure, there is little evidence to say that ability to learn deterioates as one gets older. There are many successful adult language learners, in fact they are probably better equipped than teenagers, who can feel self-conscious about speaking and develop a mindset that a language is pointless or not cool.

If a 14-year-old boy is forced to learn French at school but has little appetite for the subject, he won't do as well as a 40-year-old man who is learning because he has an interest in France and its culture, or maybe because he needs it for work, or is moving to France.

 

[tannedfrog]

Neither. I'm simply trying to quash the myth that some people aren't able to learn languages. If that were true, how come nearly all citizens in Norway and the Netherlands can speak English? Where are those who were not able to learn?

They do exist. Probably hidden away in social housing in the poor parts of towns that tourists never visit. And really there is nothing wrong with speaking only their native language.

 

[WestCoast]

They do exist. Probably hidden away in social housing in the poor parts of towns that tourists never visit. And really there is nothing wrong with speaking only their native language.

Some of the older generations (65+) in these countries don't have a firm grasp of English, along with more recently arrived immigrants from outside Europe. The figure in the Netherlands is that around 90% of the population can speak another language apart from Dutch (which is English for the vast majority).

The Eurobarometer survey came out with these results in response to "percentage of total population being able to participate in a conversation in a language other than their mother tongue".

EXTRACT

Luxembourg - 99%

The Netherlands - 91%

Sweden - 88%

Belgium - 71%

Germany - 62%

France - 45%

Ireland - 41%

Spain - 36%

UK - 30%

Source: Eurobarometer, Europeans and Languages. - full list page 3