How close does a replacement bus stop need to be to a station?

[AlastairFraser]

Reading to Wokingham replacement buses calling at Earley, Winnersh Triangle and Winnersh stop at the bus stop on the main road between the two and make no attempt to deviate to the actual stations.

Although at least all 3 stations are relatively close to the A329 - it mustn't be more than a 5 min walk to the station entrance from the respective replacement stops.
There are some pretty hideous distances in other areas from replacement bus stops.

 

[Edsmith]

This is ridiculous, rail replacement buses have served Wadhurst in the past without any difficulty.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Bentley (Hampshire) is another one where the buses stop in the village centre about a mile away from the station. (As per https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/bentley-hampshire/)

Useful for the village itself, but less so for people in the cluster of houses adjacent to the station, or wanting to access Alice Holt forest.

 

[Kilopylae]

Great discussion! From my experience with Northern Rail disruptions last winter:

• Absolute max should be 200m for accessibility compliance (PSVAR regs), but practically, anything over 100m causes chaos during peak hours. Saw this at Leeds when buses stopped near City Square—mobility scooter users struggled badly on cobbles.
• Best practice?
  • Terminal stations: Use existing bus interchanges (e.g., Victoria Coach Station for London Victoria).
  • Rural stops: Temporary hardstanding within 50m (Network Rail did this well at Aviemore during flooding).
  • TFL’s ‘Wayfinder’ system: Staff with flags guiding to stops <75m away—cuts confusion by 80% based on their data.
• Hidden snag: Drivers often refuse ‘unofficial’ stops near stations due to insurance risks. Had this at Crewe—buses had to use Nantwich Road (350m away) despite a closer layby.

Ultimately, if it’s not step-free and signed within sightlines of the station entrance, it’s failing passengers. The 2019 ORR report agrees [p. 32].

Thanks for this, it's really interesting.

It seems perverse that bus insurance doesn't cover RRB duties/doesn't ascribe the railway any innate trust to create bus stops! You'd think RRBs are enough of a "thing".

 

[izvor]

Normans Bay is also situated along a narrow country lane but unsure how that is served..?

Normans Bay was not served by RR buses until about 5-6 years ago, when a shuttle minibus service was introduced to/from Cooden Beach, allegedly in response to a public complaint.

I did a shift there once as a bus controller: the Southern spec was 2 buses to run the half-hourly service, plus one to provide meal breaks, and a standby bus and controller at each end. Double this for early/late shifts to reach the total spec. Total passengers on my shift: zero. Quite a few mild complaints about buses blocking the lanes though!

I wondered if Southern were trying to prove a point, rather like loading costs onto rural branch lines to boost the case for closure, back in the 1950s/60s.

I believe a service of some sort is still offered but on a rather more realistic scale. Maybe like Crowhurst, served by a single minibus to/from Battle.

 

[Dr Hoo]

At Chapel-en-le-Frith the long station access road is unsuitable for full-sized buses with a low bridge and sharp bends. I am not aware of the station ever being used as a train <> bus transfer point other than in a dire emergency.

The trick is to ensure that as far as possible nobody goes up the approach road in the expectation of travel at these times, so signage and possibly staffing is important. Even getting a bus to the foot of the station approach is awkward because of the local road ‘network’ and heavy ‘calming’ of many roads.

A taxi shuttle back to the main RRB route and stops is by far the most customer friendly.

Obviously there may be edge cases of car parked at station on a previous day or whatever but these must be pretty rare.

 

[izvor]

Cowden was to do with the fact that the road going up to the station was so narrow that generally nothing bigger than a bread van could be used. At the same time, if an oncoming vehicle came in the opposite direction, it would create a very awkward situation! Stopping at the crossroads allows for slightly larger single deckers to be used and as you say is much closer to the village which is where the few punters who do want Cowden probably wish to go.

This is largely true, except that RR buses did stop at Cowden station (in the lane outside, where there is still a bus stop) until, from memory, around 8-10 years ago when it was moved to the present location at the crossroads on the main road, which as you say is nearer to the village, but doesn't have a car park: I would estimate that 90% of users there arrive/depart by car.

I don't know why this move was made, because the route via the station is more direct, and at the time was served by a regular bus route - full-size buses, not bread vans - I drove them regularly! My guess is that there was an "incident" with a driver not familiar with the narrow lanes and it was pulled.

Nutfield was always a problem, RR buses formerly served the station (actually in the large village of South Nutfield) on a one-way loop round the lanes but this too was pulled and buses now stop on the main road in Nutfield village - avoiding the long diversion but no good for the station which is over a mile away up/down a very steep hill. Station staff at Redhill will arrange a taxi for any mobility-impaired pax.

 

[Teds]

Not stopping at any other stops than those set by the company because of insurance is a sort of half truth. It is used to justify not adding stops to drop people off which will add to the journey times. The driver cannot agree a stop for one passenger and not for another and agreeing all extra stops would extend the journey times.
Having said that, the driver is at fault if he stops at an unauthorised stop and the passenger falls getting off the bus or something similar.
Most drivers that I worked with would agree additional stops at marked service bus stops in special circumstances such as in the early hours of the morning with 3 people on the bus. Some absolutely won't consider it.
I worked on rail replacement for many years and I don't think I ever heard of a formal complaint about the location of a stop on accessibility grounds. The most inconvenient stops were usually where the station was inconvenient too and the bus stopped outside!

 

[izvor]

Agree entirely, this is my experience also.

 

[AlastairFraser]

At Chapel-en-le-Frith the long station access road is unsuitable for full-sized buses with a low bridge and sharp bends. I am not aware of the station ever being used as a train <> bus transfer point other than in a dire emergency.

The trick is to ensure that as far as possible nobody goes up the approach road in the expectation of travel at these times, so signage and possibly staffing is important. Even getting a bus to the foot of the station approach is awkward because of the local road ‘network’ and heavy ‘calming’ of many roads.

A taxi shuttle back to the main RRB route and stops is by far the most customer friendly.

Obviously there may be edge cases of car parked at station on a previous day or whatever but these must be pretty rare.

Indeed.
Unfortunately, due to the short notice commissioning of many Buxton line RRBs, I doubt you'd have enough time to set up proper diversion signage or personnel most of the time.

 

[davews]

This last weekend, and whenever there are RRBs, Longcross station was closed and they make no attempt to run a bus. Yes, no road access to the station but most users live in the adjacent estate which obviously does have road access. Maybe they decided that with the small number of users of Longcross it is just not worth the effort....

 

[CornishDave]

In the case of Looe Valley line, the replacement bus stop for Causeland is over a mile away in Duloe up one very steep hill! I should know as I've walked it! At least its convenient (and quicker) for those who live in Duloe.

Same goes for St Keyne Wishing Well Halt where the bus stops in St Keyne itself.

 

[plugwash]

There does seem to be a huge amount of inconsistency in this, at cheadle hulme the rail replacement busses go past the station entrance, before the busses heading for handforth go round a roundabout and back the way they came (though the busses heading for Bramhall do continue straight on) after passing the station. Meanwhile at Heald green they seem to stop on Styal Road about 260m away from the start of the station approach road. Both suburban stations in the same conurbation, but treated very differently.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is this sort of ‘inconsistency’ anything more than what can be explained by local road geography, low bridges, dead ends, space (or not) for layovers and so on?

 

[700007]

Is this sort of ‘inconsistency’ anything more than what can be explained by local road geography, low bridges, dead ends, space (or not) for layovers and so on?

In TfL land some routes are perhaps quite strange - one particular oddity is the London Overground service 'X' which operates sometimes when trains do not run between Dalston Junction and New Cross Gate through the East London Line core section. A mixture of awkward road geography, low bridges, the river Thames and tight back streets means this service stops at some stations not usually served by trains (for example, Deptford Bridge) and skips other stations (Shadwell, Wapping and Rotherhithe) normally served by trains.

Shadwell and Wapping would add a lengthy detour and restrict this double deck route to single deckers so it is understandable why neither are served. But the lack of a stop at Rotherhithe (or at least nearby Southwark Park, on current line of route) is a bit confusing. Passengers are told to walk from Canada Water if they want Rotherhithe, which isn't the worst walk in the world provided you know where you are headed to and don't have accessibility needs. Probably to make this worse (and a regular complaint from the public) is southbound buses do not stop at Canada Water station but instead by the Seven Islands Leisure Centre some five or six minutes walk away. Not only does this make the interchange to the Jubilee line needlessly awkward but means there's no common stop with the 'M' replacement service to Clapham Junction either.

 

[Falcon1200]

In March I used an Avanti RRB from Carlisle to Glasgow which dropped us off at Wellington Street, a full city block, and the busy Hope Street, away from Central station itself. And on Sunday just gone the RRBs from Glasgow to Carlisle were being announced as departing from Wellington Street. Presumably congestion at Gordon Street, right outside Central, is the reason for this, but it is inconvenient for passengers, especially those with large or heavy luggage, often a feature of long-distance services.

 

[Dr Hoo]

In March I used an Avanti RRB from Carlisle to Glasgow which dropped us off at Wellington Street, a full city block, and the busy Hope Street, away from Central station itself. And on Sunday just gone the RRBs from Glasgow to Carlisle were being announced as departing from Wellington Street. Presumably congestion at Gordon Street, right outside Central, is the reason for this, but it is inconvenient for passengers, especially those with large or heavy luggage, often a feature of long-distance services.

But for a journey arriving at Glasgow from The South passengers would typically be alighting well down Platform 1 or 2. This is actually a longer walk than from Wellington Street, to Gordon Street. (And vice versa.)

 

[thelongestroad]

Great discussion! From my experience with Northern Rail disruptions last winter:

• Absolute max should be 200m for accessibility compliance (PSVAR regs), but practically, anything over 100m causes chaos during peak hours. Saw this at Leeds when buses stopped near City Square—mobility scooter users struggled badly on cobbles.
• Best practice?
  • Terminal stations: Use existing bus interchanges (e.g., Victoria Coach Station for London Victoria).
  • Rural stops: Temporary hardstanding within 50m (Network Rail did this well at Aviemore during flooding).
  • TFL’s ‘Wayfinder’ system: Staff with flags guiding to stops <75m away—cuts confusion by 80% based on their data.
• Hidden snag: Drivers often refuse ‘unofficial’ stops near stations due to insurance risks. Had this at Crewe—buses had to use Nantwich Road (350m away) despite a closer layby.

Ultimately, if it’s not step-free and signed within sightlines of the station entrance, it’s failing passengers. The 2019 ORR report agrees [p. 32].

I didn't know ChatGPT had an opinion on RRBs.

Nailsea and Backwell has to be one, or at least used to be. Buses can access the road outside the station but I believe the issue is turning around.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I think you’re right! Confusing as it’s only RRB’s that stop at this bus stop (despite the timetable behind).

Service buses do use the Wadhurst station bus stop (I was on a 1066 last week that called there), but I'm sure it used to be confusingly marked as an RRB stop with a blue Southeastern flag.

Some other stations in the South East where the replacement bus stops are a long way from the station -as far as know- unless the situation has changed in recent years-
Winchelsea- Stops on A259 in the village as the station is some distance from the village and along a narrow country lane..
Doleham and Three Oaks buses stop on A259 at Guestling Thorn. One stop serves both stations as they are both located along narrow country lanes. Doleham is about a mile from the A259.
Normans Bay is also situated along a narrow country lane but unsure how that is served..?

Winchelsea buses still depart from outside the New Inn, but the Doleham and Three Oaks bus stop is now outside the Three Oaks pub - a far more civilised place to wait! A conductor told me the reason for the change was safety related, which makes sense.

Normans Bay is deceptively simple, even though the station feels like its in the middle of nowhere. From the Eastbourne direction you just turn off at the Pevensey Roundabout and drive down Sluice Lane, stop at the junction down to the station for passengers (there's never any) then continue on across the level crossing, and it takes you right outside Cooden Beach station. The road is quite wide too from what I remember.

 

[williamn]

Using Wadhurst station again today the sign has been removed which makes me think it *was* related to the RRB rather than the service bus.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps we could do with a new thread…

Furtherest Rail Replacement Bus Stop from Rail Station….

A few contenders could be:

Cromford
Entwistle
Dent
Berney Arms

Berney Arms is simple. It doesn’t have any form of RR and the station is simply closed during engineering works etc.

Brundall Gardens is served from a RR stop on Cucumber Lane approx a mile away.

 

[Falcon1200]

But for a journey arriving at Glasgow from The South passengers would typically be alighting well down Platform 1 or 2. This is actually a longer walk than from Wellington Street, to Gordon Street. (And vice versa.)

A longer walk from the back of a long train perhaps, but also a walk which is mostly undercover, does not involve crossing busy roads, has station staff and vehicles available for assistance purposes, and which does not have (as I observed) pedestrians squeezing past while luggage is unloaded from the coach.

 

[htwestern]

Nailsea and Backwell has to be one, or at least used to be. Buses can access the road outside the station but I believe the issue is turning around.

When I last caught a rail replacement on that line (probably about 2019) they served Backwell Crossroads on the A370 only.

 

[darloscott]

On my old network in the North East the furthest RRB stop we probably served was Great Ayton where buses stopped at the Green near the Royal Oak in the village itself. A mile or 20 min walk (uphill) to the actual station. Caught out one of my friends who was a co-ordinator and contacted me to find out where one of our RRBs was when I told him buses don’t stop at the station. Unfortunately other operators weren’t reading instructions and seemingly went up there!…

 

[Kilopylae]

I didn't know ChatGPT had an opinion on RRBs.

Nailsea and Backwell has to be one, or at least used to be. Buses can access the road outside the station but I believe the issue is turning around.

You'd be surprised how many topics of company internal reports ChatGPT has surprisingly detailed opinions about. What a clever machine, eh...

 

[Travelmonkey]

It would be an interesting disability discrimination case if someone brought a legal challenge over a distant RRB stop.

Certainly could be interesting especially if the RRB isn't accessible when they eventually get there. One would hope though a taxi would be sent via the passenger assist method but then that can be hit or miss.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 22:00 ==

Some other stations in the South East where the replacement bus stops are a long way from the station -as far as know- unless the situation has changed in recent years-
Winchelsea- Stops on A259 in the village as the station is some distance from the village and along a narrow country lane..
Doleham and Three Oaks buses stop on A259 at Guestling Thorn. One stop serves both stations as they are both located along narrow country lanes. Doleham is about a mile from the A259.
Normans Bay is also situated along a narrow country lane but unsure how that is served..?

Silly thing is they have to negotiate the housing estate to serve ore, I did find it odd that no effort was made to serve three oaks when I used RRB on that route but I presumed it was due to a poorly timed road closure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 22:04 ==

It does make me wonder how RRBs are done on the heart of Wales line,

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It does make me wonder how RRBs are done on the heart of Wales line,

Don't know about the Heart of Wales but on the Cambrian coast there's a coach and a minibus, minibus for the tiny roads the coach can't fit down, and the coach for the rest (at least that's what happened when I was there).

They also put on an express, drop-off only (except the people at Penrhyndeudraeth who were going to the same place as me) minibus from Shrewsbury. I don't know where the other rail replacements started, but I saw them together running about 20 minutes late at Criccieth.

The only time I've arrived early on a rail replacement bus (arrived 8 minutes early after leaving Welshpool 44 late)