How common are dividing trains in the UK?

[30907]

This one is long-standing. I used it occasionally during the late 1970s when most off-peak services ran to/from Charing Cross and EPBs ruled the roost.

Goes way back to electrification!

In general the Southern Region was quite fond of portion working with its near total MU fleet. One not mentioned yet is the Hastings line from London: as per other routes these could divide (at Tonbridge I think) with the front 6 cars going fast(ish) to Hastings and the rear 6 calling all stations.

Traditionally they split at T Wells. Many of the trains have an extended stop there to allow for this, and there is still one weekday evening detachment.

In a totally different region, there is or was a teatime Carlisle-Leeds 4-car which detaches/d 2 at Skipton.

 

[Britannia94]

In a totally different region, there is or was a teatime Carlisle-Leeds 4-car which detaches/d 2 at Skipton.

This still happens on a Friday evening. The 2013 Carlisle to Leeds starts as a 4-car but upon arrival into Skipton it splits with the front 2-cars continuing to Leeds whilst the rear 2 go down into sidings. Then on a Saturday morning these will run empty to Ribblehead before forming the 0713 Ribblehead to Leeds service.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember a Glasgow/Edinburgh - Manchester/Liverpool arriving at Preston 50 years ago in 1974 and the shunter not knowing where to split the train. He asked the supervisor who asked Control and nobody could say for sure. So rather than incur a big delay he picked a coupling more-or-less at random and split it there!

 

[Deepgreen]

...which is a 3-way split! This must be the only example of a 3-way split in the UK surely?

Until quite recently some trains (peak) split at Redhill into Tonbridge, Gatwick and Reigate portions - the only day trains that I was aware of to split into three. Another thing which has split is the term various TOCs use! Some say 'split', some 'detach', some 'divide' and some even 'separate' en route! Yet another example of the wonderful variety provided by privatisation... The record holder may well be the 'Atlantic Coast Express' from Waterloo to Devon and Cornwall, which split into about 10-12 portions (some being a single coach) until its demise in the 1960s! Then there were 'slip' coaches which were detached from their trains on the move and braked into their stations as a way to serve some stations without the 'parent' train stopping and accruing time.

 

[D6975]

Annoyingly, it's a split at a passenger station (Waverley) but you're not allowed to board it there. The Lowland Sleeper is a split at a true non-passenger station (Carstairs)

Oh yes you are! BUT it's only the Fort Bill section that calls at Waverley officially. If you're coming from Fort William as a non sleeper passenger you have to get off in order to switch to the ordinary coaches in the other portions as only the sleeping cars go through. And Northbound you do the opposite and you are allowed to start a journey from Edinburgh up the West Highland - it's in the timetable, 04:50 departure.

 

[Railcar]

This is a question about where a divide takes place.
During the rush hour periods, the Epsom - London Bridge semi-fast trains (all stations to Norwood Junction then fast to LBG) are 10-car. After the morning rush, they are 5-car. I'm asking where the divide takes place? Epsom? Are 5 cars left in an Epsom siding to be be picked up late aftrnoon ready for the evening rush?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This is a question about where a divide takes place.
During the rush hour periods, the Epsom - London Bridge semi-fast trains (all stations to Norwood Junction then fast to LBG) are 10-car. After the morning rush, they are 5-car. I'm asking where the divide takes place? Epsom? Are 5 cars left in an Epsom siding to be be picked up late aftrnoon ready for the evening rush?

Do trains to/from London Bridge to/from Epsom split anywhere? Or maybe you're thinking of the ones from London Bridge that split at Purley, but with onward portions to/from Caterham and to/from Tattenham Corner. Happy to be corrected if that ain't the case.

 

[Class455]

Do Southern still do it at Haywards Heath?


Correct no longer happens, They serve Georgemas Junction twice instead.

Not anymore no, Southern stopped splitting the Ore and Littlehampton trains since the pandemic and ran them as standalone services.

This is a question about where a divide takes place.
During the rush hour periods, the Epsom - London Bridge semi-fast trains (all stations to Norwood Junction then fast to LBG) are 10-car. After the morning rush, they are 5-car. I'm asking where the divide takes place? Epsom? Are 5 cars left in an Epsom siding to be be picked up late aftrnoon ready for the evening rush?

They split at London Bridge after the morning peak. I can’t remember which diagram it is exactly and what time this takes place but one 10 car circuit splits at London Bridge to form one 1K to Epsom and the second unit forms the next one half an hour later. They then reattach for the evening peak after working 1K42 and 1K44 at London Bridge to form 1P49 17:12 on the Cats and Tats.

 

[Andy1673]

Not anymore no, Southern stopped splitting the Ore and Littlehampton trains since the pandemic and ran them as standalone services.


They split at London Bridge after the morning peak. I can’t remember which diagram it is exactly and what time this takes place but one 10 car circuit splits at London Bridge to form one 1K to Epsom and the second unit forms the next one half an hour later. They then reattach for the evening peak after working 1K42 and 1K44 at London Bridge to form 1P49 17:12 on the Cats and Tats.

After morning peak 1P20 off Caterham/Tattenham Corner having arrived at London Bridge splits and forms 1K23 and 1K25. Then they after arriving at London Bridge as 1K42 and 1K44 attaching and form 1P49. 1P16 splits to form 1K19 and 1K21 then 1K38 and 1K40 attaching and form 1P45. Evening 1P56 splits to form 1K59 and 1K61. 1P60 forms 1K63 (which then frorms 1K66 and attaching to 1P66 front then forms front portion of 1P71) and 1K65. 1P66 splits and forms 1K69 and rear portion of 1P71.

 

[infobleep]

I suppose that's like the SE service from Charing Cross to Ramsgate and Ramsgate that splits at Ashford, one part goes to Ramsgate via Sandwich. At least SE has the sense to advertise it as a service to Ramsgate and Sandwich, even though both portions go to Ramsgate.

I seem to recall this announcement was only like this at Clapham Junction and not at other stations like East Croydon.

 

[enginedin]

Oh yes you are! BUT it's only the Fort Bill section that calls at Waverley officially.

Caledonian Sleeper

There are a number of late night bars (note: not nightclubs) in Edinburgh. Whistle Binkies on South Bridge is open until 3am and I've been in one on Cowgate (that I now can't remember the name of, can't think why!) that is open even later. Whistle Binkies has live music but isn’t really a...

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As I note there:

officially, the train doesn't stop at Edinburgh, even though it's where all 3 sections merge. Does anyone know how strictly they enforce people with a valid ticket for the service preventing from getting on here (it would have made some sense for me to get on at Edinburgh, rather the station I did get on at, but didn't want to risk it...)

There's conflicting advice - Caledonian Sleeper don't sell berths from Edinburgh on the Highland Sleeper, and when I asked their customer services, they confirmed that they don't permit new passengers to join, even in the seated section.

The split and combining at Carstairs are done in the station platforms!

oops, I didn't realise this!

 

[MrJeeves]

Not anymore no, Southern stopped splitting the Ore and Littlehampton trains since the pandemic and ran them as standalone services.

Though an evening service to Hastings and Worthing or Eastbourne and Bognor Regis does split at Haywards Heath still.

Realtime Trains | 2246 London Victoria to Worthing | 09/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 2246 departure from London Victoria to Worthing on 09/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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Realtime Trains | 2216 London Victoria to Eastbourne | 10/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 2216 departure from London Victoria to Eastbourne on 10/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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[BeijingDave]

Going further back, many CrossCountry services up the WCML used to have a Glasgow and Edinburgh portion, splitting at Carstairs just as the Lowlander Caledonian Sleeper still does.

Growing up in the north west, I used to so commonly hear announcements for '...Carstairs, where the train divides, the front portion for Glasgow Central, the rear portion for Edinburgh' that the unenlightened 11 year old me for a while thought Carstairs was a major junction and large town, sort of another Preston or Carlisle.

Imagine my disappointment when I finally got there and saw it was a windswept island platform in the middle of some fields.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Though an evening service to Hastings and Worthing or Eastbourne and Bognor Regis does split at Haywards Heath still.

How common are dividing trains in the UK?

I didn't even know these existed until a couple of months ago when I was walking through Waterloo station and heard the automated voice talking about how a train was going to divide and which carriages you should sit in for which destinations. I forgot about this till now, but it really...

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[jfollows]

Growing up in the north west, I used to so commonly hear announcements for '...Carstairs, where the train divides, the front portion for Glasgow Central, the rear portion for Edinburgh' that the unenlightened 11 year old me for a while thought Carstairs was a major junction and large town, sort of another Preston or Carlisle.

Imagine my disappointment when I finally got there and saw it was a windswept island platform in the middle of some fields.

I remember the 1970s dividing services, including the up evening non-stop Carstairs-Preston working.
More recently, in the first Pendolino timetable, I went to Edinburgh early from Manchester, 05.xx from Manchester to Glasgow, a Voyager, which deposited me at Carstairs for an Edinburgh connection. It wasn't high summer, so it was cold. First of all a Glasgow-King's Cross service passed through, then my connecting train arrived - a Pendolino from Craigentinny which turned into a passenger train at Carstairs, ran to Edinburgh, then returned to Euston via the WCML and Trent Valley. Anyway, it got me to Edinburgh early enough. I may have come back the next day on the Euston service, starting from Edinburgh.
EDIT from 2006 GA working timetable
1S31 05:10 Piccadilly-Glasgow arrived Carstairs 08:21
1V45 07:50 Glasgow-Plymouth passed Carstairs 08/21
1E07 08:00 Glasgow-King's Cross passed Carstairs 08/29
5B11 07:05 or 08:07 Polmadie-Carstairs arrived Carstairs 08:39
1B11 08:41 Carstairs-Edinburgh

 

[hexagon789]

Growing up in the north west, I used to so commonly hear announcements for '...Carstairs, where the train divides, the front portion for Glasgow Central, the rear portion for Edinburgh' that the unenlightened 11 year old me for a while thought Carstairs was a major junction and large town, sort of another Preston or Carlisle.

Imagine my disappointment when I finally got there and saw it was a windswept island platform in the middle of some fields.

Carstairs is certainly not befitting of its historic status as an important railway junction - it's a very un-grand sort of place.

 

[Trainguy34]

I suppose that's like the SE service from Charing Cross to Ramsgate and Ramsgate that splits at Ashford, one part goes to Ramsgate via Sandwich. At least SE have the sense to advertise it as a service to Ramsgate and Sandwich, even though both portions go to Ramsgate.

Or the Dover Priory & Dover Priory - Victoria, one bit leaving nearly an hour earlier (1521 I think) and running via Minster (Reverse), Ramsgate and Herne Bay while at 1618, a portion leave Dover to go via Canterbury East to Faversham, where they join. Unsure what the announcement is at Victoria.

 

[MCR247]

As I alluded to earlier, I'm pretty sure the confusion stems from the fact the train reverses at Sheffield. So the rear cars from Liverpool to Sheffield become the front cars from Sheffield to Nottingham which are then the ones to continue forward from Nottingham to Norwich.

That’s not the confusion I was referring to actually, although, yes, that does add to it. It’s actually the fact that the CIS announces the train as if it is dividing and then going to two different destinations, as opposed to a train that is detaching a terminating portion, as the CIS can’t tell the difference.

 

[Class455]

Though an evening service to Hastings and Worthing or Eastbourne and Bognor Regis does split at Haywards Heath still.

Realtime Trains | 2246 London Victoria to Worthing | 09/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 2246 departure from London Victoria to Worthing on 09/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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Realtime Trains | 2216 London Victoria to Eastbourne | 10/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 2216 departure from London Victoria to Eastbourne on 10/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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Should have made it clear they don’t anymore in the standard hour, my bad. There are a few evening services that still do as you’ve correctly highlighted, along with some Sunday morning trains.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I think in the early days of privatisation two separate 158s joined in the north-west somewhere before heading into Manchester together.

The twist was that they were operated by different TOCs - one CrossCountry, one Regional Railways North West (?).

All very hazy but I’m pretty sure it took place, and must surely be rare if not a one-off.

 

[Acfb]

I think in the early days of privatisation two separate 158s joined in the north-west somewhere before heading into Manchester together.

The twist was that they were operated by different TOCs - one CrossCountry, one Regional Railways North West (?).

All very hazy but I’m pretty sure it took place, and must surely be rare if not a one-off.

I'm pretty sure I rode a 158 on a Sunday once from Lancaster to Edinburgh, this would have been 98/99/00.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Exactly! With Dellners you can just drive one unit into another at walking pace, hold down the couple button and you're good to go! No need for a shunter or anything else.

I was watching 2 TGVs couple, where an arriving train was coupling to a stationary train already at the platform. The stationary train had its passenger doors open throughout the coupling process.

No closing and re-opening of doors as you see in the UK.

 

[Gaelan]

First of all a Glasgow-King's Cross service passed through, then my connecting train arrived

Glasgow-Kings Cross via Carstairs!?

 

[jfollows]

Glasgow-Kings Cross via Carstairs!?

Yes, it was the electric service which originated with GNER and still runs today, 1E06 06:48 Glasgow Central to King's Cross (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C82156/2024-02-01/detailed#allox_id=0). This one passes through Carstairs at about 07:20 (yesterday's timings attached). This service, and its return working (1S23 15:30 King's Cross to Glasgow Central) are proposed for abolition in the next timetable.
The recent trackwork changes at Carstairs means that 1E06 and 1S23 won't go through a platform road any more, but at the time I'm referring to they did.
EDIT Before electrification there were services such as 1E05 08:30 Glasgow Queen Street to King's Cross, 08:12 from Dundee until 27 September 1986, but I'm no longer talking about trains which divide am I .......

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I'm pretty sure I rode a 158 on a Sunday once from Lancaster to Edinburgh, this would have been 98/99/00.

Yes - CrossCountry ran Manchester Airport–Edinburgh services with 158s for a while.

While searching for that I found this post which corroborates my recollection:

The Manchester Airport - Scotland services were frequently coupled to a First North Western service running between Manchester Airport and either Barrow or Windermere. The trains generally used to split and divide at Bolton. Northbound, the FNW "bit" (formed of a 156) was on the front, but then ran via Wigan North Western, which means it then arrived into Preston after the VT 158 "bit", which had departed Bolton after it. A timetabling nightmare really!

 

[enginedin]

Glasgow-Kings Cross via Carstairs!?

as far as I can see, all LNER services between Edinburgh and Glasgow go via Carstairs: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR, including the empty stock movements and the weird shuttle that LNER run between Waverley and Glasgow Central (5S04).

This doesn't seem to be a result of the engineering works near Falkirk - all future timetables seem to go via Carstairs too

 

[snowball]

as far as I can see, all LNER services between Edinburgh and Glasgow go via Carstairs: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GR, including the empty stock movements and the weird shuttle that LNER run between Waverley and Glasgow Central (5S04).

This doesn't seem to be a result of the engineering works near Falkirk - all future timetables seem to go via Carstairs too

Others will know far better than me, but I always thought most or all Kings Cross-Edinburgh-Glasgow services went via Carstairs, ever since Edinburgh-Carstairs was electrified.

 

[Gaelan]

Yes, it was the electric service which originated with GNER and still runs today, 1E06 06:48 Glasgow Central to King's Cross (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C82156/2024-02-01/detailed#allox_id=0). This one passes through Carstairs at about 07:20 (yesterday's timings attached). This service, and its return working (1S23 15:30 King's Cross to Glasgow Central) are proposed for abolition in the next timetable.

Oh, of course - I was assuming Carstairs meant into England via the WCML.

 

[jfollows]

Others will know far better than me, but I always thought most or all Kings Cross-Edinburgh-Glasgow services went via Carstairs, ever since Edinburgh-Carstairs was electrified.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vices-what-do-you-think-should-happen.261628/ for some discussion and history.

 

[Rescars]

If the OP really wants their mind blown, they should look up ‘GWR Slip Coaches’

I guess this is too historical to be relevant, but even more entertaining than slip coaches was the original operating pattern of the London and Blackwall!